Advice needed

[Charlie Brown]

I don't need shooting down or 'trust you Charlie' but I have a dilemma.

Echosign is great but my terms and conditions haven't been showing or going through to the clients, instead they see a black screen - nobody has mentioned it until now!

I've just gone through my contracts and it's happened to all of them, meaning I have 40+ jobs where they have signed the contract & agreed the fee part but not the T&C's!

How do I approach this?

This is what I'm thinking of doing, let me know if it's the wrong way to go:

Email all 40, explain what's happened and resend them the T&C's to sign. Give them fourteen days to do it before chasing.

If for whatever reason client's don't agree with the T&C's, the booking will be terminated and all fee's they've paid refunded immediately.

I can't even believed it's happened and I've only realised. Really poor on my behalf, so I don't need telling. ;)

[Cowlinn]

40 People signed without knowing what they signed? Are you 100% It happened to all 40 and not jut a one off?

[Charlie Brown]

100% sure, I've gone through everyone. I bet everyone presumed I don't bother with them! It was only today when a client said 'what happens if you're ill, are we covered?'

I said, 'yes of course, it's all in the T&C's'

'What T&C's Charlie?'

:Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored:

[Cowlinn]

100% sure, I've gone through everyone. I bet everyone presumed I don't bother with them! It was only today when a client said 'what happens if you're ill, are we covered?'

I said, 'yes of course, it's all in the T&C's'

'What T&C's Charlie?'

:Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored:

I think your plan seems like a good one. I cant see people having an issue with taking a few minutes to read and sign again.

Will you be continuing to use echosign in the future? Or go back to the old fashioned way?

[funkymook]

I'd send them the T&C's with a brief explanation that they possibly didn't appear with their contract due to a computer error and could they sign and send them back to you as soon as possible.

I wouldn't mention anything about cancellations, refunds etc unless the situation actually arises, which I doubt it will.

[Charlie Brown]

I'll still use echo sign. The file on my computer is corrupt, hence the black screen with no text.

It's not the reading and signing that's the issue, some people might not agree/like a few of the clauses - such as, additional playing time costs etc.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.

Legally (not morally), am I obliged to refund any money(s) they've paid me?

Whatever happens, I'm likely to go down the moral route but it would be interesting to know.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Quick couple of questions:

1. Doesn't the main body of the contract state that they agree to be bound by your T&Cs, and, if not, how are they agreeing to them even when they are showing clearly?

2. Do your T&Cs appear on your website?

[Charlie Brown]

Nope & nope. :(

I've attached what they've been getting:

I used to have them on my website but since I moved hosts etc, they haven't been put on. Something I'll look into tomorrow morning.

Attachment removed due to Data Protection issues

[wensleydale]

I would just email each one and explain what's happened explaining that the T&C's are as much for clients benefit as they are yours.
Sure most wont have a problem unless you have strange Ts and Cs.

On a different note I find the way you describe the amount payable very strange- I'm guessing the booking fee is £50 but it doesnt actually say that anywhere.
Seems a little strange to me?

[Pe7e]

If they ask for a cancellation and refund after reading them, then I think you are obliged to cancel, and give it to them. If I was you I'd notify them and forward a copy your T&Cs for signing, but without the 'cancel' bit, and see what happens, if anyone has a problem signing after reading them, try to renegotiate their individual contract with them on a one off basis. Why lose, or risk loosing a perfectly good job over what is esentially a technicality? Although it's not an ideal situation, thousands of DJs pull off thousands of sucessful gigs every week without a contract in sight. Keep things in perpective, the worst that is likley to happen, is a late cancellation where you can't enforce a cancellation fee, but ask yourself how many times has this arisen over the last 12 months. Others views may differ.

[BossmanKaraokeDisco]

Although it's not an ideal situation, thousands of DJs pull off thousands of sucessful gigs every week without a contract in sight. Keep things in perpective, the worst that is likley to happen, is a late cancellation where you can't enforce a cancellation fee, but ask yourself how many times has this arisen over the last 12 months. Others views may differ.

Got to agree with this comment, I would rectify the problem and make sure all future contracts are covered by tour T & C's and then just let these run there course.

As stated above 1000's of DJs do not even use contracts and there are no problems, why chance losing a booking by highlighting something that the only person that is worrying about is you.

In 5 years of using contracts I have never had to enforce my T & C's once and that is a lot more than 40 discos.

Chill out Charlie I am sure they will all be okay :D :D

[Corabar Entertainment]

OK, Charlie

Firstly: Is that a real contract? If so, you should not under any circumstances be posting that on a pubic forum! (Private data, etc!!!!!!!!)

Secondly: I'm still somewhat confused. If that is your booking form, and nowhere does it even mention your T&Cs, how do you get clients to agree to your T&Cs?

If it's a case of you just enclose another sheet without any cross-reference to it / separate statements within the T&Cs stating that you both agree to be bound by them, plus separate signatures on the T&Cs, then I hate to tell you this, Charlie, but none of your bookings have agreed your T&Cs - regardless of whether they come out clear or a blank page! (Although there could be an argument for assumption of contract terms, but that gets really complex and it could end up costing you a lot of money if you wanted to prove / enforce.)

You REALLY need to do a lot of work on that booking form, but I don't want to sidetrack this thread with that now. Suffice to say, as a bare minimum, amend it to say that by signing the document, both you and the client agree to be bound by the attached T&Cs.

Putting aside the basic problems mentioned above, there is plenty of case law about clients having the opportunity to view terms PRIOR to being bound by them. If they don't have the opportunity to do so, then they cannot be enforced/imposed after the event, so, yes, if when you write to them explaining the mishap they say that they don't like them / refuse to sign, you should refund. Your only other choice is to 'wing it' :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Corabar Entertainment]

To those of you saying you've never had to enforce your T&Cs: have you never asked for payment? When? Have you never asked for sufficient room? Power supply? All these things may be covered in Charlie's T&Cs. The idea of having them is to AVOID having to 'enforce' them (ie take legal action) because both parties know what they're doing, so there is no argument.

People have a tendency to say that they've never had to enforce T&Cs, when they mean that they've never had any arguments, when, in fact, you do enforce your T&Cs for every event.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Just seen this and was going to mention the same thing.
Charlie, I really hope that the booking form you attached to your message was an example booking form as if not, there would be an issue with confidentiality wouldn't there?

Secondly, I also don't want to go off on a different tangent here but is that all of the information you put on your booking forms? It just seems like it's lacking lots of details on it but if it works for you then fine.

To go back to the original reason you posted - Personally, I'd contact them all and mention that you failed to include the Terms & Conditions and it was a genuine mistake. Yes, I agree that there are probably lots of operators out there that don't have any booking forms or terms & conditions and it's all done on trust but personally, I don't work like that. Terms & Conditions are there for a reason, not just for the customer but for you aswell (Health & Safety, Security, Damages etc etc).

[discomobiledj]

I would just email each one and explain what's happened explaining that the T&C's are as much for clients benefit as they are yours.
Sure most wont have a problem unless you have strange Ts and Cs.

On a different note I find the way you describe the amount payable very strange- I'm guessing the booking fee is £50 but it doesnt actually say that anywhere.
Seems a little strange to me?

I thought the same thing. The way it reads is that the deposit is £325.

The time is also incorrect (it says 6.000)

You might (if you can) want to move the word insurance up to the line above as it looks like you're offering wedding insurance!

As for the error, just send the email to all of them saying that there could possibly have been an error in the system blah blah blah

[DazzyD]

To me, the document that Charlie has linked to, is nothing more than an quotation or invoice for payment. There's no indication that it's an agreement between all parties involved so how can it possibly be a contract?

And, of course, echoing the other comments, I really hope it is a mock document with example details and not a geniune client. ;)

[Charlie Brown]

This is how I work (and it's worked well so far)

They make an enquiry, I meet them, I then send them something like this:


Hi Laura,

Great meeting you both on Tuesday.

Okay to summarise what we discussed:

· You’re getting married at the local church. You need to finalise with the venue what time you’ll be eating, having the drinks reception etc.
You would like me to setup the equipment before your guests enter the marquee. (although the wedding breakfast will take place in a different room)
You would like Steve to play for an hour or so during your drinks reception with the intention of creating a relaxed but sophisticated atmosphere.
· You would appreciate a mixture of music to cater for all tastes.
· You’re going to request upto 40 songs beforehand & highlight your requests & then your families.
· Evening guests will arrive at 7.00pm ish.
The band will perform twice during the evening reception (x2 45 minute sets)
· We managed to establish what your definition of ‘cheese’ is!
· Guests may request songs as long as it suits the mood/atmosphere.
12.00am finish

If you could gather some songs together that you’d like to hear throughout the evening, that would be appreciated, including first/last dance choices.

Having spoken to the band you could have a four piece + myself, for £xxxx. If you would like Steve to play during the drinks reception, there will be an additional cost of £99.

If you would like to go ahead, I require a deposit of £100.

Hopefully I haven’t missed anything out!

They book, these notes get saved and join the booking form.

My booking form is really just to display and explain the price breakdown.

[Corabar Entertainment]

So where do your T&Cs come into the equation? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Also, Charlie, you haven't answered the question: is that a real booking form or a sample? If it's the real thing, I'll delete it for you.

[Charlie Brown]

Yeah, it is the real thing. I didn't think. Please delete. :(

So the booking form is sent, then the terms are sent straight after. I have my terms saved in echo sign, under 'useful documents'

But clients weren't seeing the terms, just a blank screen.

[surround sounds]

Well i use echosign and send booking forms and t and c as one form, but requires 2 signatures. 1 after the booking form and the other after T and C. This way i know they have at least seen them

[Corabar Entertainment]

So, in effect, you've NEVER had a contract where the clients have agreed to your T&Cs!

:lol:

(PS: Off to remove that booking form you posted up :whistle:)

[Charlie Brown]

Yeah, when you put it like that.

I'll go and work on it.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Oops!
I've just started another thread Charlie as you got me thinking.
I think I cover almost everything on my booking forms but I'd like to see how others go about it.

[BossmanKaraokeDisco]

To those of you saying you've never had to enforce your T&Cs: have you never asked for payment? When? Have you never asked for sufficient room? Power supply? All these things may be covered in Charlie's T&Cs. The idea of having them is to AVOID having to 'enforce' them (ie take legal action) because both parties know what they're doing, so there is no argument.

People have a tendency to say that they've never had to enforce T&Cs, when they mean that they've never had any arguments, when, in fact, you do enforce your T&Cs for every event.

Sorry Yes you are correct in what your saying, I was wrong in my post :eek:

When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong :sorry:

[Corabar Entertainment]

:lol:

[Shaun]

I'd send them the T&C's with a brief explanation that they possibly didn't appear with their contract due to a computer error and could they sign and send them back to you as soon as possible.

I wouldn't mention anything about cancellations, refunds etc unless the situation actually arises, which I doubt it will.

I agree with Martin.

I'd send a quick email stating that you've become aware of a computer error and the T&C's may may not have appeared within their booking form. Apologise for the oversight and let them know that you'll forward them a fresh copy of the form for them to sign.

I definitely would not mention anything about cancellations/refunds etc at this point. No point in panicking the client. Just a friendly email letting them know that you are aware of an error, and the steps you'll be taking to rectify the error for them.