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DJay
15-10-2006, 05:33 AM
OK folks, this is bugging me!

Is there any way I can connect all this kit together without a crossover device? I want to run the subs on 1 amplifier and the tops on the other.

A picture of my set up and connections can be seen here: http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit.jpg

Hope you can help as I'm stumped!

Jay

soundlad
15-10-2006, 09:29 AM
there maybe a second output on your mixer (rec output) this would work fine as a second output.

symo
15-10-2006, 09:35 AM
Second to the top. I now have
2 x ep2500
2 x 18" sub
2 x 15" full
1 x cx3400 crossover

Does anyoe have any experience in putting together amps with the cx3400 and could giv me advice?

DJay
15-10-2006, 09:50 AM
That's true... But I read that it's much better to use the balanced XLR connections...

Paul James Promotions
15-10-2006, 09:53 AM
Is there any way I can connect all this kit together without a crossover device? I want to run the subs on 1 amplifier and the tops on the other.



Make up a pair of Y-split cables to go from the XLR outputs of the mixer into both amplifiers.

Then just use 4 seperate speakon to speakon cables to connect your Mid / Tops to your top amp (with the low pass filter activated) and your bass speakers to your second amp.

Also, on the amp running the Mid / Top speakers, set the 50hz low pass filter to on. This will prevent the top speakers trying to produce any frequencies below their capability, and also improve efficiency on your system.

Hope this helps

Jamie

DJay
15-10-2006, 11:36 AM
So the bottom line is that I have 4 options:

1. Get a split XLR cable
2. Use the output from the Monitor Out to the 2nd amp
3. Buy a crossover unit
4. Use just 1 amp and the corssover in the sub

My verdict:

1. Sounds like I'll be spending £20 - 40 on such a cable (of good quality) so better to spend that money on a crossover
2. This sounds a tad ametuer
3. Not a bad idea deemed that they are £57. I think I'm right in assuming that this device just splits the top/mid/bass signal
4. Not a bad idea considering I have 4Ohm speakers/subs and the Beringer can do 2 x 1200 watts at 2ohms. But this is really pushing the amp and probably not worth the risk

With a crossover, is it simply a case of connecting the left/right XLRs from the mixer into the Xover inputs, then taking 1 set of L/R to 1 amp and another set of L/R to another amp?? So am assuming the Xover will have 4 Output XLR's?

By the way, I am reffering to Behringer Xover units!

Thanks for your help folks.... We're getting there!

Jay

dj-jaym
15-10-2006, 11:40 AM
look on the behringer website but yes ur rite

Denty
16-10-2006, 10:42 AM
Jay, I've got a Behringer crossover, never used and still boxed if you want it, just make me an offer. I work in London so pick-up shouldnt be difficult.
Steve

DJay
16-10-2006, 01:01 PM
Hi Steve,

Which crossover do you have? 3400????

Denty
16-10-2006, 02:26 PM
not sure Jay, will check it out tonight and revert tomorrow
cheers
steve

Thames Valley Discos
16-10-2006, 09:47 PM
am i missing somethink or can you not just daisy chain amps?

pulsemobiledisco
16-10-2006, 09:49 PM
am i missing somethink or can you not just daisy chain amps?

Only if the amp has an input and an output. His only have an input.

Thames Valley Discos
16-10-2006, 09:53 PM
no, you can link the Behringer 2500,s, they have both, xlr in, and jack in/out

pulsemobiledisco
16-10-2006, 09:55 PM
no, you can link the Behringer 2500,s, they have both, xlr in, and jack in/out
Just looked at the picture again and it only says IN on both the jack and xlr.

Thames Valley Discos
16-10-2006, 10:10 PM
Just looked at the picture again and it only says IN on both the jack and xlr.
i,ve got one, and you can link it, The 1/4" and XLR jacks are input connectors wired in parallel. You can use them for daisy-chaining multiple amp inputs.

pulsemobiledisco
16-10-2006, 10:17 PM
Never used or seen one in the flesh, just assumed it was in only as my amps are clearly marked in and out and these are only marked in.

Thames Valley Discos
16-10-2006, 10:28 PM
Use balanced cables though

Denty
17-10-2006, 07:37 AM
Morning Jay
It's the CX2310 I have if you're interested. Probably too late for you but there's a good chance I'll be looking to sell my Peavey amp, pair of XT2, pair of subs, poles and leads.
Cheers
Steve

DJay
17-10-2006, 01:20 PM
Hi Steve,

The Behringer 2310 is £57. How much do you want and where can it be collected from? Also, which Peavey amp do you have (2600?)

DJay
17-10-2006, 05:28 PM
I'm not sure what a balanced cable looks like. FIrstly can you tell me if this is the correct set up?
http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit.jpg

Second, can you tell me if the 6.5mm jacks (which are on the fiagram) are balanced cables?

Thanks

Jay

Danno13
17-10-2006, 06:04 PM
It will say in the manual, it doesn't really matter anyway since the amps will be right next to each other there won't be much of a cable length to pickup interference on.

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure what a balanced cable looks like. FIrstly can you tell me if this is the correct set up?
http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit.jpg

Second, can you tell me if the 6.5mm jacks (which are on the fiagram) are balanced cables?

Thanks

Jay

Jay that looks wired correctly, have a read here.
http://www.swee****er.com/shop/cables/cables_buying-guide.php

the **** replace with t w a t e r
no idea why that is censored.

1st is balanced, second isnt

DJay
17-10-2006, 07:03 PM
Nice link! I now know that I have unbalanced TS cables. I will get them changed for balanced or TRS as I have just learned!

Thanks

Denty
17-10-2006, 07:39 PM
jay, for a fellow forum user cost will be well below list if u think it works for you-- will talk/show you the cables involved in the set up whether you use the xover set up or otherwise. Have to check out the pv amp cos it's now buried below dentys xmas decoarations (mrs d's insistence) and it took me years to get get what i thought was the utimate system and the dustmen only took away the original packaging of the amp this morning (i hope..........)!!subs actually still in original boxes - sad.............
matey-i'm working out of Picadilly if you want to check me out
steve

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure what a balanced cable looks like. FIrstly can you tell me if this is the correct set up?
http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit.jpg

Second, can you tell me if the 6.5mm jacks (which are on the fiagram) are balanced cables?

Thanks

Jay
Forgive my late intervention. But I have a feeling you are completely missinformed. I haven't had the chance to go and have a look at my EP2500 but I am 99% certain that the "jack" sockets you have identified on the two amps are simply unbalanced inputs. The pictures of jack plugs that have been posted, I think are nothing more than mono and stereo jacks. I may be wrong (hope I am), but generally balanced connections with this type of audio are the three pin XLR type (the round one with the three holes in the circle?) I can't tell you what happens to make it balanced (and actually, who cares if it works), but you will find that you will pick up mains hum and other signal noise if you don't use the balanced connections. The XLR output on your mixer is the balanced output.

I think your diagram simply connect the mono jack inputs from the two amps together, which won't achieve anything, it certainly won't let you use the two amps as you seem to want to. Without looking at the back of my Behringer I can't tell you what you do need to do, but what you have posted isn't right!

I get the impression you have decided to go for the active crossover. To be fair, the systems I have worked with that use two amps have always used a crosover and it does help.

Wiring the crossover should be fairly simple. Take the balanced output (3 pin XLR as mentioned above) from your mixer to the crossover. The crossover should then have a pair of XLR balanced outputs for the low frequency and another pair for the remaining. Go from each of these to an amp, then wire subs to one amp and tops to the other. BINGO!

Hope that helps

Danno13
17-10-2006, 09:44 PM
Jack plugs can still be balanced.. they have the ground pin, the ring and the tip.. so three connections :)

And to be honest, i doubt you'll have any problems over such a short distance with unbalanced cables anyway...

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 09:51 PM
Forgive my late intervention. But I have a feeling you are completely missinformed. I haven't had the chance to go and have a look at my EP2500 but I am 99% certain that the "jack" sockets you have identified on the two amps are simply unbalanced inputs. The pictures of jack plugs that have been posted, I think are nothing more than mono and stereo jacks. I may be wrong (hope I am), but generally balanced connections with this type of audio are the three pin XLR type (the round one with the three holes in the circle?) I can't tell you what happens to make it balanced (and actually, who cares if it works), but you will find that you will pick up mains hum and other signal noise if you don't use the balanced connections. The XLR output on your mixer is the balanced output.

I think your diagram simply connect the mono jack inputs from the two amps together, which won't achieve anything, it certainly won't let you use the two amps as you seem to want to. Without looking at the back of my Behringer I can't tell you what you do need to do, but what you have posted isn't right!

I get the impression you have decided to go for the active crossover. To be fair, the systems I have worked with that use two amps have always used a crosover and it does help.

Wiring the crossover should be fairly simple. Take the balanced output (3 pin XLR as mentioned above) from your mixer to the crossover. The crossover should then have a pair of XLR balanced outputs for the low frequency and another pair for the remaining. Go from each of these to an amp, then wire subs to one amp and tops to the other. BINGO!

Hope that helps

You are totally wrong, These are balanced and unbalanced jacks, the xlr input is wired in parallel to the jack inputs. Some mixers do not have xlr, thus they use the balanced jack. Always use balanced cables if possible.

CRAZY K
17-10-2006, 09:53 PM
. I may be wrong (hope I am), but generally balanced connections with this type of audio are the three pin XLR type (the round one with the three holes in the circle?) I can't tell you what happens to make it balanced (and actually, who cares if it works), but you will find that you will pick up mains hum and other signal noise if you don't use the balanced connections. The XLR output on your mixer is the balanced output.


Following on Dannos comments as well--I use my JTS Radiomike with both balanced and unbalanced inputs--because my old set up only has mono jack inputs--new kit has XLR.

Theres no discernable difference in quality, no hum and no picking up signal noise from either--as Danno rightly says unlikely using short leads--must admit I dont know difference between two but assume quality and general sound should in theory be better from balanced inputs generally---but not always it seems.

CRAZY K

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 09:54 PM
Jack plugs can still be balanced.. they have the ground pin, the ring and the tip.. so three connections :)

And to be honest, i doubt you'll have any problems over such a short distance with unbalanced cables anyway...
I guess jack can be as you say, but the most common balanced connector used is XLR. It also doesn't change the fact that the sockets on the EP2500 are actual mono inputs, not balanced inpots OR outputs. It can be run as a bridged mono, but from what I can remember, you can't use two as described earlier.

As for not having problems over short distances, trust me, you most certainly will. I have run unbalanced mixers and it really is false economy. As you have a balanced output on your mixer, why even consider not using it?

Can I also suggest you get the best quality leads you can afford. It really really does make a difference. I actually have high quality hi-fi interconnects from my CD draws to the mixer (cost about £50 each) and the difference to the normal ones is huge!

pulsemobiledisco
17-10-2006, 09:55 PM
Agree with Rice, looks to me like the jack is only an input. Far better to go with a crossover. Your amps will run more efficient because you will only be sending the correct frequencies to your speakers. You wont be shoveing full range into both amps only for the crossover in your speakers to cut it out anyway. Much improved my setup getting a crossover.

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 09:55 PM
You are totally wrong, These are balanced and unbalanced jacks, the xlr input is wired in parallel to the jack inputs. Some mixers do not have xlr, thus they use the balanced jack. Always use balanced cables if possible.
Care to fill me in then - would love to know what I got wrong, then I will know for future reference.

Thanks

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 09:57 PM
I guess jack can be as you say, but the most common balanced connector used is XLR. It also doesn't change the fact that the sockets on the EP2500 are actual mono inputs, not balanced inpots OR outputs. !

Wrong they are wired in parallel to the xlr sockets.

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 09:59 PM
Care to fill me in then - would love to know what I got wrong, then I will know for future reference.

Thanks
Yes the Behringer has balanced XLR and 1/4" balanced TRS

Read this if it helps
http://www.behringerdownload.de/EP1500_EP2500/EP2500_SPECS_Rev_A.pdf

TRS=Balanced, TS=unbalnced

Danno13
17-10-2006, 10:02 PM
Yep... think about it.. if they're both inputs then they must both be wired to the same place inside the amp, hence either is interchangable between an input/ output to pass through into another amp. This is pretty much standard with all power amps.

Also, I wasn't saying don't use balanced link from the mixer.. i just meant between the amps that will be in the same case.. so less than 50cm, doesn't really matter anyway as it appears it is a balanced connection.

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 10:03 PM
Agree with Rice, looks to me like the jack is only an input. Far better to go with a crossover. Your amps will run more efficient because you will only be sending the correct frequencies to your speakers. You wont be shoveing full range into both amps only for the crossover in your speakers to cut it out anyway. Much improved my setup getting a crossover.

I give up. What bit do you all not understand. The XLR is WIRED in PARALLEL to the jack trs. Thus it passes the input signal to the jack, which if linked to other amp passes that signal to that amp.

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 10:03 PM
Yes the Behringer has balanced XLR and 1/4" balanced TRS

Read this if it helps
http://www.behringerdownload.de/EP1500_EP2500/EP2500_SPECS_Rev_A.pdf
Hey you're right, just had a read of the manual - but then be fair, if you read my post I did say I wasn't certain - never seen a jack plug used as a balanced.

Anyway, be fair, that was the only part of my post that was slightly incorrect, you made it sound like you thought everything I said was tosh! I just think that the guy asking the questions is getting very mixed up and not really getting completely correct advice. Surely, even with TRS inputs, it would be best to recomend the use of XLR as a preference?

anyway, if there are any further queries, maybe this will help:

http://www.djstore.co.uk/manuals/beh/behep1500.pdf

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 10:04 PM
Yep... think about it.. if they're both inputs then they must both be wired to the same place inside the amp, hence either is interchangable between an input/ output to pass through into another amp. This is pretty much standard with all power amps.

Also, I wasn't saying don't use balanced link from the mixer.. i just meant between the amps that will be in the same case.. so less than 50cm, doesn't really matter anyway as it appears it is a balanced connection.
great, someone who understands, nice one :teeth:

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 10:05 PM
Hey you're right, just had a read of the manual - but then be fair, if you read my post I did say I wasn't certain - never seen a jack plug used as a balanced.

Anyway, be fair, that was the only part of my post that was slightly incorrect, you made it sound like you thought everything I said was tosh! I just think that the guy asking the questions is getting very mixed up and not really getting completely correct advice. Surely, even with TRS inputs, it would be best to recomend the use of XLR as a preference?

anyway, if there are any further queries, maybe this will help:

http://www.djstore.co.uk/manuals/beh/behep1500.pdf
Not for linking amps though, because the xlr will be used for the link to the mixer.
I feel my advise is correct, other posts seem to be providing wrong info, IMOHO

Danno13
17-10-2006, 10:09 PM
Rice.. don't take it personally. I was just trying to help Jay out by making sure he gets the correct info.

Like you say though with Thames and I contradicting you in stereo.. it does look very confusing now :D

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 10:09 PM
I give up. What bit do you all not understand. The XLR is WIRED in PARALLEL to the jack trs. Thus it passes the input signal to the jack, which if linked to other amp passes that signal to that amp.
OK, I get what you are suggesting - just seems a messy way of doing things that's all. Never tried it, but I guess in theory as they are wired in parallel you "should" be able to do that.

However, reading the Bi-amping section (page 8) of the manual (see above link), it actually only describes this being done with an active crossover and not as you have suggested. I'm guessing that using the TRS sockets to pass the signal to the 2nd amp is not a particularly good practice???

Ricesnaps
17-10-2006, 10:13 PM
Not for linking amps though, because the xlr will be used for the link to the mixer.
I feel my advise is correct, other posts seem to be providing wrong info, IMOHO
I think we were actually saying the same thing - but as the only other option is the TRS, if you were going to attempt the amp link, it would be your only option. Although I stand by my comments that this does not seem to be a manufacturer recomended method (bit patch it up with gaffa tape type solution IMHO).

Anyway, the EP2500 is so cheap, surely an active crossover is not going to be a problem?

Danno13
17-10-2006, 10:15 PM
It is common practice, nothing bad about it at all - for example if you're running 4 speakers all over the same frequency range then you could link two amps, one for each pair.

The only reason Behringer only desribe the setup with a crossover is because they sell them!

In this particular case though, it would be good practice to use a crossover - but i think Jay already mentioned he wasn't going to get one, hence the advice about linking the amps.

Thames Valley Discos
17-10-2006, 10:15 PM
OK, I get what you are suggesting - just seems a messy way of doing things that's all. Never tried it, but I guess in theory as they are wired in parallel you "should" be able to do that.

However, reading the Bi-amping section (page 8) of the manual (see above link), it actually only describes this being done with an active crossover and not as you have suggested. I'm guessing that using the TRS sockets to pass the signal to the 2nd amp is not a particularly good practice???

Why not, you are passing a direct link to the other amp, its as good as if the mixer was supplying the second amp direct. If i ever link my QSC amps, i always do it this way.

Denty
18-10-2006, 11:10 AM
morning Jay
Looking for £25 and a gin+tonic for the xover.cud meet around picadilly or covent gdn if you're interested
pv amp is the 1200
rgds
steve

DJay
18-10-2006, 05:14 PM
I have made up my mind. I am definetely buying a cross over. £57 is not a lot of money. Is it worth buying the £87 Behringer 3400 or is the base 2310 model good enough for my setup (http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit.jpg)

Danno13
18-10-2006, 07:56 PM
The 3210 will be fine. If you don't want to buy Dentys can i have it?? :teeth:

DJay
19-10-2006, 05:04 PM
Denty,

Would you be willing to post it to me (in South Harrow) for £30? I would obviosuly test to make sure it work and as long as it does work, I'll post a cheque out to you? I'm sure CB Entertainments will vouch for my honesty as he is expecting delivery of a PDA from me on Tuesday.

DJay
28-10-2006, 11:26 PM
I have just placed an order for a Behringer 3400 Xover. What I'm not sure about is the fact that it has 6 ourputs on the back. 2 for high, 2 for mids and 2 for low. Is it possible for me to use this xover with my set up which can be seen here: http://jay.fireflyinternet.co.uk/kit2.gif