Another Generator question

[CRAZY K]

Trying to arrange for a generator to power a small PA system in a cow shed in Blackpool--all in a days work here!

Soooo-we need to power a 300 watt passive pa plus a Laptop for a gig.

No Lights.

I am suggesting a small Honda Generator as per this--http://http://www.hss.com/g/41103/Generator-2-2.6kva-Petrol.html

In addition as there is a Laptop a surge protector suitable for sensitive 240v equipment like this--http://www.hss.com/g/40962/Power-Surge-Protector.html

Someone talked to me about a generator with a stabilised power supply but im not sure they exist at this level?

Any comments or advice appreciated, I have read previous posts from years ago but maybe some new members can input, Tony from A1 does not seem to be posting unfortunately.

I have noticed a preference for Diesel Generators has been mentioned.

thanks in advance

[Jiggles]

3 KW+ Diesel genny with AVR... Nothing less. Those horrible petrol things will more likely kill anything attached to it as you get a weird power draw with the likes of speakers etc.

[CRAZY K]

3 KW+ Diesel genny with AVR... Nothing less. Those horrible petrol things will more likely kill anything attached to it as you get a weird power draw with the likes of speakers etc.

I see so Diesel Generators have AVR.

That would be good.

Where did you hire yours---from a national chain like HSS?

[Excalibur]

3 KW+ Diesel genny with AVR... Nothing less. Those horrible petrol things will more likely kill anything attached to it as you get a weird power draw with the likes of speakers etc.

Agreed. Automatic Voltage Regulation is what the initials stand for. Since the load you'll be applying is so small, I'd stick at least a couple of 500w Halogen floodlights on as ballast.

[CRAZY K]

Agreed. Automatic Voltage Regulation is what the initials stand for. Since the load you'll be applying is so small, I'd stick at least a couple of 500w Halogen floodlights on as ballast.

Peter, where would you hire such a beast, the inital Googling isnt coming up with AVR.

Plenty of Diesel Jennies---no AVR.

thanks

ALAN

[sxboy]

Well, can only speak for what Ive used and never had any problems, what so ever, used a small suit case style yamaha gen many times on a "disco carnival float" running a laptop, peavey 2600 amp, bubble machine, revo3, led messenger. Has never "killed" any equioment and the gene coped fine, 2kwh.

Daren

Video clip of gene running all the equipment.


https://picasaweb.google.com/111730012349855389284/October42012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJPwh56znr-NEA&feat=directlink

[Jiggles]

I see so Diesel Generators have AVR.

That would be good.

Where did you hire yours---from a national chain like HSS?

Aggreko... Sadly their smallest comes in at 15kW... :( HSS might have something. Just ask for something in the range of 5kW, Diesel with AVR.

[CRAZY K]

Well, can only speak for what Ive used and never had any problems, what so ever, used a small suit case style yamaha gen many times on a "disco carnival float" running a laptop, peavey 2600 amp, bubble machine, revo3, led messenger. Has never "killed" any equioment and the gene coped fine, 2kwh.

Daren

Video clip of gene running all the equipment.


https://picasaweb.google.com/111730012349855389284/October42012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJPwh56znr-NEA&feat=directlink

Ah well--guess you got a stable one there Daren.:beer1:

I have now seen a petrol Generator with AVR 2.6kw called FERM but not sure if they are available for hire.

http://nationalstocksolutions.auctivacommerce.com/Ferm-Portable-Petrol-Generator-275kva-Long-Running-P1777008.aspx

[CRAZY K]

Aggreko... Sadly their smallest comes in at 15kW... :( HSS might have something. Just ask for something in the range of 5kW, Diesel with AVR.

HSS dont seem to have AVR--I guess its automatic with the big diesels 10-15kva.

i know for a fact though some bigger ones arent that good----my sons Rodeo Bull had to be transferred to another Jenny when the first one destroyed half the hired DJs electrics in the Summer:daft::daft::daft:

I might consider this with the surge protection option added at extra cost.

http://www.hss.com/g/41402/Hawk-2.6kva-Diesel-Generator.html

There is mention of circuit breakers on some models but I assume thats like surge protection :confused:

[abbotsmike]

HSS dont seem to have AVR--I guess its automatic with the big diesels 10-15kva.

i know for a fact though some bigger ones arent that good----my sons Rodeo Bull had to be transferred to another Jenny when the first one destroyed half the hired DJs electrics in the Summer:daft::daft::daft:

I might consider this with the surge protection option added at extra cost.

http://www.hss.com/g/41402/Hawk-2.6kva-Diesel-Generator.html

There is mention of circuit breakers on some models but I assume thats like surge protection :confused:

Circuit breakers will be the MCB/tip switch things, same as in the consumer unit in your house. No surge protection, just overload protection. There to protect the wiring/genny, not your gear!!

HSS won't usually do anything with AVR, they generally hire to builders who have no such worries about sensitive gear. A filament bulb isnt too bothered about squared off mains, or 50V fluctuations, and if it pops, who cares about a bulb!!

If I had to run off a small non regulated genny, I'd look into buying or hiring a line interactive UPS. Can easily get ones that will power that sort of load for 30 minutes or more, and a line interactive one converts the mains to 12VDC, then back to a lovely smooth sine wave, filtering out all the junk that a small genny will dump on it!

[CRAZY K]

Circuit breakers will be the MCB/tip switch things, same as in the consumer unit in your house. No surge protection, just overload protection. There to protect the wiring/genny, not your gear!!

HSS won't usually do anything with AVR, they generally hire to builders who have no such worries about sensitive gear. A filament bulb isnt too bothered about squared off mains, or 50V fluctuations, and if it pops, who cares about a bulb!!

If I had to run off a small non regulated genny, I'd look into buying or hiring a line interactive UPS. Can easily get ones that will power that sort of load for 30 minutes or more, and a line interactive one converts the mains to 12VDC, then back to a lovely smooth sine wave, filtering out all the junk that a small genny will dump on it!

Thanks for the info Mike thats helpful, fair comment on HSS and the like--thats why the local company that hires Jennys approached by the client have had several DJs blow up their laptops then:daft::daft::daft:

So the MCB is for when YOU overload the circuit.:rolleyes:

Will look at UPS options.

Would the surge protection unit used with a Diesel Generator be of use do you think in protecting a Laptop or is it too insenstive?

thanks

[katman]

If I had to run off a small non regulated genny, I'd look into buying or hiring a line interactive UPS. Can easily get ones that will power that sort of load for 30 minutes or more, and a line interactive one converts the mains to 12VDC, then back to a lovely smooth sine wave, filtering out all the junk that a small genny will dump on it!

You may find that it may not be possible to do that.

I have a cheap and cheerful 650W genny that I got from Makro several years ago. Fine for running the lights in my lockup garage but not much used for anything sensitive. (It actually looks identical to this one http://nationalstocksolutions.auctivacommerce.com/Ferm-Portable-Compact-Generator-650w-Camping-Caravan-P1777012.aspx )

We were having the electricity meter changed at work and we knew the power would be off for around an hour. Our phone systems and servers are all on Line Interactive UPS to keep things running through glitches and short outages. I knew that even though the batteries were in good condition they probably wouldnt last for the entire duration of the outage so I took my genny into work with the intension of plugging the UPS's into it.

The output from the Genny was so dirty and unstable that the UPS's totally refused to operate from the mains and just continued on battery !!!!!

[CRAZY K]

You may find that it may not be possible to do that.

I have a cheap and cheerful 650W genny that I got from Makro several years ago. Fine for running the lights in my lockup garage but not much used for anything sensitive. (It actually looks identical to this one http://nationalstocksolutions.auctivacommerce.com/Ferm-Portable-Compact-Generator-650w-Camping-Caravan-P1777012.aspx )

We were having the electricity meter changed at work and we knew the power would be off for around an hour. Our phone systems and servers are all on Line Interactive UPS to keep things running through glitches and short outages. I knew that even though the batteries were in good condition they probably wouldnt last for the entire duration of the outage so I took my genny into work with the intension of plugging the UPS's into it.

The output from the Genny was so dirty and unstable that the UPS's totally refused to operate from the mains and just continued on battery !!!!!

Interesting thanks for the observation--as it happens the Company you purchased from also supply a bigger PETROL model with an AVR which is what is needed--trouble is this is a one off gig and I dont think the client wants to pay to BUY one, that will cost as much as the entertainer:daft:

Equally I dont know if any one hires the FERM range--most of them HSS etc use Honda and the like.

One thought, when I saw you were using a two stroke engine I guessed there might be a problem---my experience on boat engines tells me they can be troublesome because of the mixture problems--although my garden strimmer and hedgecutters work on two stroke perfectly---but they are German made and I dont know whether the output is stable---not that it matters.:rolleyes:

I just wonder again if a Diesel Jenny with a full Power Surge unit on the end would at least protect things----even if it cuts off the music at least there will be no damaged equipment---its the clients choice to hold the event in a cow shed 500 feet from mains power :daft:

Speaking to the tecchies at a Generator Company revealed that sensitive equipment like CCTV that is used a lot on site is regularly blown out by unregulated generators, it seems that any big change in the power requirement---like switching on or off any units drawing a fair bit of power---could be Disco Lighting in our case--can cause the Generator without AVR to readjust and in doing so surge back up over 240 volts.

I can understand Peters suggestion of plugging in some lights to give the generator some work to do but think---if a bulb blows naturally then there might be another surge while it adjusts.

The biggest problem is as stated before--we usually deal with larger Generators which are supplied by clients and have onboard AVR--here we have a very small requirement for which a lower power is required but to get AVR is not going to be cost effective to the client.

Will update after speaking to more Generator Hire Companies.

In the case of Daren who has successfully run all his kit on a small Generator several times I can only assume that once everything is plugged in and running nothing much has been switched on and off during the gig so no major changes to the power have been required resulting in a fairly stable situation.

On the bright side I well remember a few years ago following Neil from Pink Elephant on an outdoor gig in Bekshire where he did a Disco and I followed with a Barn Dance---I later discovered power was from a Mickey Mouse Generator hidden in a bush --i know it was a Generator because halfway through my set it ran out of petrol--and the organisers asked me to refill it:daft:

[DJ Jules]

As you long as you don't load a generator heavily you will "normally" get away without AVR, but it is a bit of a chance. On building sites where they blow up the CCTV kit they're usually doing something stupid like sticking a 3Kw therostatic heater or a large fridge on the same circuit. Both of these types of devices will load a Genny heavily and when they cut in/out the generator will go from full load to almost no load within a second and will take a couple of seconds to compensate. When this happens the generator speed (and hence voltage) can fly off by anything up to +/-100v.

I've seen generators fry RCB's before with spiking voltages.

Rodeo bull's will cause the same problem as a 1.1Kw fan will draw almost 10amps when it's starting up and 6amps running, which is pretty much maximum load for a small 3kw generator (I know the maths don't work out there, but it's an inductive load).

DJ lights won't normally cause the same problems unless they're discharge lamps, in which case the inrush currents can be high enough to cause spikes.

Diesel generators are less susceptible to this as they're much higher torque so deal with the load coming on/off much more gracefully.

If you want to stick with a cheaper generator - it is possible to hire AVR's separately for very little money, or even buy them as they're relatively cheap pieces of equipment, just google for them - here's one I found earlier! http://www.mammoth-hire.co.uk/Voltage-Regulator-240v-290245/

These are actually the AVR modules (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LDE6800T-Bulldog-5KVA-Diesel-Generator-AVR-Automatic-Voltage-Regulator-Unit-/120859679841?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Tools_Generators _ET&hash=item1c23cc5c61) which are fitted to most generators - not expensive really...

Julian

[Jem]

I have one of these small Honda generators...

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU20i.htm

Used it for loads of sensitive equipment such as outdoor lasershows and laser advertising etc. I've also run audio gear and other LED lighting without problem, it has a great pure sinewave output and is very quiet and economical to run. Don't know too much about electricity power loadings etc, so not sure if it would be good enough for your rig. I use one of the digital readout load meters so I can ensure I never overload it.

Cheers

Jem

[DJ Jules]

I have one of these small Honda generators...

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU20i.htm

Note this line in the spec: "Inverter technology"

It's generating 12V, converting it to DC and the stepping it up electronically to 240v so it's going to be a lovely regulated pure output. Just don't ever stick a Rodeo bull on it or any other large inductive load (like a fridge) or it'll shut down the output pretty quick!

Just a general note, if you have to use an unregulated Petrol generator - try and get a Honda generator as they are generally a lot more stable than the competition (they can usually actually supply the rated output, whereas from experience cheaper generators will only ever supply their rated output "at peak" and normally only sustain about 75% of the quoted figure).

Julian

[CRAZY K]

Note this line in the spec: "Inverter technology"

It's generating 12V, converting it to DC and the stepping it up electronically to 240v so it's going to be a lovely regulated pure output. Just don't ever stick a Rodeo bull on it or any other large inductive load (like a fridge) or it'll shut down the output pretty quick!

Just a general note, if you have to use an unregulated Petrol generator - try and get a Honda generator as they are generally a lot more stable than the competition (they can usually actually supply the rated output, whereas from experience cheaper generators will only ever supply their rated output "at peak" and normally only sustain about 75% of the quoted figure).

Julian

Thanks Guys its all very helpful, I checked the people offering the voltage reg but unfortunately they referred me to some other company who were helpful---but were the wrong people--I then rang the Manchester Branch of the Hiring Company to find the number disconnected---I gave up.

My final plan revolves around Jems and Jules ideas of Honda.

We can hire the small Honda EU10I --IT CAN BE DOUBLED UP --but not sure if thats enough overall so will go for ONE to drive the Laptop with a surge board for safety. http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU10i.htm

It might not have full AVR but does have some form of smoothing.

Plus a standard 3.2kva Petrol Honda again with surge board for the PA.

Its the only compromise due to cost which the client has YET to accept---around £49 plus vat which they can recover anyway---if they dont like it im afraid its goodbyeeeeee time.

The proper approach is a larger full blown Generator with proper AVR but I know the cost will be prohibitive, at least this approach is affordable and gives protection.

There is only one question now--does anyone know what happens if a surge protection unit is surged :confused:

Does it---

a. cut out for 5 seconds then cut back in

b. simply prevent more than 240 volts passing

c. do something else

Not found anybody who knows---but I bet someone on here does:rolleyes:

[Jiggles]

There is only one question now--does anyone know what happens if a surge protection unit is surged :confused:

Does it---

a. cut out for 5 seconds then cut back in

b. simply prevent more than 240 volts passing

c. do something else

Not found anybody who knows---but I bet someone on here does:rolleyes:

Blows its self up! Well the protection part then it leaves you with extension that works but with no surge protection! Or the expensive ones channel the over voltage to earth. To be fair that unless the voltage goes waaaay high then its not going to help you all to much.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/surge-protector1.htm

[Chris1984]

I have a strong interest in a event power company as well as providing power to events across the globe. The solution to your problem lies not in a diesel generator in this instance - why would you want a big old box that needs to be delivered chucking away win the background noisy with lots of fumes and good old fashion diesel smoke - you don't!

As has been mentioned the small honda inverter range are ideal and made for such applications. While the suitcase versions are portable and great i can only recommend form personal experience and not google.

I personally use the EU26i for such applications and cant fault it - however the runtime of around 2hrs with a full load isnt always long enough - so unless you have the option to power down and refuel id recommend the EU65i which will run for around 10 hrs with 14 - 1/3 load or a good 4hrs at full load which from what you have said your doing you wont be near full load.
The EU651 is available more from a wider range of hire shops but is heavy and needs a small van or large estate car - it has wheels and handle but can be lifted easy enough with 2 people.
Before anyone wonders about running sensitive electronics off them i use the 65 mainly to power a laptop and christie roadstar 20k projector for gorilla advertising and quick roll up open doors to get the press pic projections.

The other advantage of these 2 generators over the smaller suitcase range is that they have ceeform outlets not 13a so they are BS7909 compliant for temporary event power.

And they are very very quite - far quitter than anything else out there in my opinion and you dont get plumes of smoke or the ground rumble of a larger diesel set.

In the years ive been doing event power professionally i have never used surge protectors or any other such devices as mentioned on here, even when running over £80k of projector!

Look at it this way the more stuff you have in the chain the more options for failure - use the right kit from the start, dont use unnecessary stuff that wont always work and reduce your chances of failure. The only use for UPS in the production world are on some bits of control kit which take a while to bot back up or show critical such as FOH desks and racks - youll be hard pushed to find ups's on most shows.....

AS for doubling generators up - with such a low draw just use one machine to cover your bases - doubling generators up can cause even more issues and potentially deadly consequences.

I hope this helps - ive been as honest as i can based on real life experiences and use of the equipment.
any questions just ask!

[Chris1984]

Just re read and seen mains is available only 500ft away - why not run a cable? for a 300w pa and laptop 2.5mm ho7 will be fine.

[CRAZY K]

Just re read and seen mains is available only 500ft away - why not run a cable? for a 300w pa and laptop 2.5mm ho7 will be fine.

Thanks for all the input Chris, certainly the Honda Suitcase Generator looks ideal.

The Entertainer and the client dont have 500 feet of cable available so a generator seems the solution.

Hiring cable with the attendant H and S risks seems unlikely to be a starter.

[Chris1984]

Thanks for all the input Chris, certainly the Honda Suitcase Generator looks ideal.

The Entertainer and the client dont have 500 feet of cable available so a generator seems the solution.

Hiring cable with the attendant H and S risks seems unlikely to be a starter.


fair enough - hope you get it sorted - as i say most hire shops stock the bigger inverter hondas

[CRAZY K]

Blows its self up! Well the protection part then it leaves you with extension that works but with no surge protection! Or the expensive ones channel the over voltage to earth. To be fair that unless the voltage goes waaaay high then its not going to help you all to much.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/surge-protector1.htm

Not sure what you mean--sounds like it just temporarily diverts the excess current until it drops back to normal--thatll do me:D

[Excalibur]

Not sure what you mean--sounds like it just temporarily diverts the excess current until it drops back to normal--thatll do me:D

Not quite, Alan. It's a single event protection. If you get two spikes, the second one will take out the delicate stuff. After the first spike, there's no protection, you see.

Chris has as usual given excellent advice. For the power draw you've outlined, one of the suitcase jobbies would be more than adequate. Me, cos I'm at times a highly Sceptical Old Git, I'd still love to see a 6Kva diesel set, and a few halogen floods. It's just that when you get there, you'll find a few sets of fairy lights, a space heater or two, a kettle or two and other assorted odds and ends all drawing power.

[CRAZY K]

Not quite, Alan. It's a single event protection. If you get two spikes, the second one will take out the delicate stuff. After the first spike, there's no protection, you see.

Chris has as usual given excellent advice. For the power draw you've outlined, one of the suitcase jobbies would be more than adequate. Me, cos I'm at times a highly Sceptical Old Git, I'd still love to see a 6Kva diesel set, and a few halogen floods. It's just that when you get there, you'll find a few sets of fairy lights, a space heater or two, a kettle or two and other assorted odds and ends all drawing power.

Luckily in a Cow Shed Barn Dance in Blackpool in the daytime not a problem;););)

On checking your assumption that all you get is a one hit wonder with the surge protection---I thought surely thats too bad to be true?

Sounds more like a fuse?

This article from Belkin cannot possibly mean ONE surge :Censored: up the surge unit.

http://www.belkin.com/uk/powersolutions/

It must be an ongoing protection surely Shirley:rolleyes:

Very confused of Denford

[Excalibur]

This article from Belkin cannot possibly mean ONE surge :Censored: up the surge unit.


On reading said article, oh yes it can. Not will, but can, may, possibly, perhaps. No guarantees thre, simply an assertion that their kit will withstand greater spikes/surges for far longer than the lower grade ones supplied by their competitors.

Best price I could find on the web for HO 7 in the lengths you require isn't economically viable for a one off, but would leave someone with a valuable item afterwards, which could then be used and used and used over again. Arctic isn't so much cheaper from my usual suppliers.

[Chris1984]

Best price I could find on the web for HO 7 in the lengths you require isn't economically viable for a one off, but would leave someone with a valuable item afterwards, which could then be used and used and used over again. Arctic isn't so much cheaper from my usual suppliers.

interested to know what you found it for - i can supply 100m drums for £130 + vat (plus delivery), so 2 drums will be ample and id imagine similar in price to a generator......
but the OP said it wasn't a practical solution so didnt say :-)

acrtic cable is also unsuitable as it isn't bs compliant...

[Excalibur]

interested to know what you found it for - i can supply 100m drums for £130 + vat (plus delivery), so 2 drums will be ample and id imagine similar in price to a generator......
One of the prices I found it for was so keen, I wondered if they'd nicked it!! That was 1.5mm, and I know 2.5mm would be way preferable.



arctic cable is also unsuitable as it isn't bs compliant...
Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Half the marquee companies in England haven't worked that out yet!
Yes Chris, you're absolutely right, no question. Whatever solution may be found ( or not ), safety is of paramount importance.

[Chris1984]

Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Half the marquee companies in England haven't worked that out yet!
Yes Chris, you're absolutely right, no question. Whatever solution may be found ( or not ), safety is of paramount importance.

I know - allot of the smaller ones are very bad - the kind that do everything.... Badly! the bigger ones arnt to bad now as they just get people like me to do their power!

[Jiggles]

interested to know what you found it for - i can supply 100m drums for £130 + vat (plus delivery), so 2 drums will be ample and id imagine similar in price to a generator......
but the OP said it wasn't a practical solution so didnt say :-)

acrtic cable is also unsuitable as it isn't bs compliant...

What?! I Can get 100m of HO7 of 1.5mm for £80 + VAT +Del...

[Chris1984]

What?! I Can get 100m of HO7 of 1.5mm for £80 + VAT +Del...

urm so can the rest of the world.....

A) were not talking about 1.5mm - please read the post before once again jumping in on my comments - were talking about 2.5mm which you cant get for that

B) what you get things for and what you sell them for are different its called business - i said supply, i'm not an electrical wholesaler and don't buy it in bulk so will naturally not be as cheap as some but that is still competitive.........

[CRAZY K]

On reading said article, oh yes it can. Not will, but can, may, possibly, perhaps. No guarantees thre, simply an assertion that their kit will withstand greater spikes/surges for far longer than the lower grade ones supplied by their competitors.

Best price I could find on the web for HO 7 in the lengths you require isn't economically viable for a one off, but would leave someone with a valuable item afterwards, which could then be used and used and used over again. Arctic isn't so much cheaper from my usual suppliers.

Looks like further investigation into quality of surge protectors is required--I really cant see the point of having a one hit or two hit wonder :daft: