Licences etc HELP?!

[jaylaw]

Ok being a musician I decided I want to try my hand at running a mobile disco. So I got myself an amp and speakers and some disco lights etc.

However, I have encountered a possible stumbling block.

I am NOT running my disco as a business. This is just a hobby. Here is an example of what I am doing:

I have all the gear to provide a disco. A friend comes to me and says I am having a party at the local community center will you do a disco for me? I say sure I'll do it. There is NO charge cos i'm just doing it for fun.

I thought this would be great I get to practice being a DJ and my buddies get to have a good dance!

BUT

After reading a lot of things online I have come accross a lot of talk about DJ licences which to be honest has got me bricking it because I haven't got anywhere near the budget I would need to buy these! Please can someone clarify this for me?! I'm just hoping I haven't completely wasted my time and money.

[Shaun]

After reading a lot of things online I have come accross a lot of talk about DJ licences which to be honest has got me bricking it because I haven't got anywhere near the budget I would need to buy these! Please can someone clarify this for me?! I'm just hoping I haven't completely wasted my time and money.

In most cases the PRS/PPL licence will be held by the venue you are playing in.

If you are playing from a laptop, and have converted the music from CDs to play on the laptop, then a Produb licence is required. 'Produb' is a 'format shifting licence'. If you are using original CDs then no licence is required.




You may also hear talk of PLI & PAT. PLI (public Liability insurance), should the unthinkable happen and a member of the public come to harm due to something you've done. PAT (Portable Appliance Test) which is an annual safety check of all your electrical appliances you use for the job. Some venues will insist on you having these to perform in them. It isn't a legal requirement to have them though, but both are good business practice.

Welcome to the forum.

[funkymook]

Apart from Produb which you may or may not need the other two that most venues will require to see are PLI (Insurance) and PAT (for electrical equipment) certificates. Community Halls normally do require these.

PLI can cost as little as £30 and PAT depends on how many items need testing (mine's around £60/£70 and I bet I have more gear than you!)

There's no actual DJ licence - I've got all three above and they've covered me for pretty much every booking I've ever had.

What are you playing your music on?

[SC Events]

Just a query... if he is format shifting, would he require a ProDub Licence seeing as he wouldn't be charging for his services?

I thought this licence was only needed if the music was used for commercial use... otherwise, surely everyone who format shifts music would need one, regardless of whether they are a DJ or not?

Just asking, not trying to cause a stir :)

[spin mobile disco]

At the moment format shifting is illegal for all but those authorised by the mcps or related body .Although this is in the process of being changed by government to allow a fair use policy for private use. At the moment format shifting is illegal for us and the general public unless the use of the aforementioned produb licence.

edit sorry PRS I meant not mcps or is it both.

[Excalibur]

Scott, that's how I understood it. Matt, you're right, but as far as I know ( and even on a good day that's not much ) wasn't it understood that the powers that be were going to use the Nelsonian attitude* when dealing with the general public in this matter? Don't take that as gospel, of course.


*Turn a blind eye.

[jaylaw]

So even though I'm not doing this as a business I will still need Produb, PLI and PAT. My setup is PC based. I was hoping that because I was just doing private invitation only gigs for mates etc. that it wouldn't be so strict. Guess I was wrong then. Looks like I'm going to have to invest some extra coinage!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The BPI said they wouldn't be pursuing people who ripped their own CDs to a computer for non commercial purposes, but it still isn't officially a legal practise.

[Excalibur]

So even though I'm not doing this as a business I will still need Produb, PLI and PAT.
See above. PLI and PAT aren't legal requirements, but in all honesty, they're vital to have. Absolutely vital, just in case someone has a problem with your kit.


Produb? If you download your music directly to your playout machine, you don't need Produb even for a business. If you've ripped CDs to it though, that requires Produb.

As I said though, until you start doing this for money* it's quite likely that you won't need Produb.





* For hire or reward. Payment in kind. I know this is stretching things a bit, but it has been known that you don't have to be given money for it to be considered that you're being paid.


I'm waiting for some of the cavalry on these matters to arrive, cos I'm not the Oracle on them.

[jaylaw]

Ah this is getting a little clearer. I suppose my main worry is if a friend books somewhere for a party and asks me to Dj for them and I turn up and find the venue wont let me play cos I dont have the right licences.

[DazzyD]

...

If you are playing from a laptop, and have converted the music from CDs to play on the laptop, then a Produb licence is required. 'Produb' is a 'format shifting licence'. If you are using original CDs then no licence is required.
...

And no licence is required when downloading legally obtained (ie bought!) downloads and saving them directly to your playout drive (be it your computers internal HD or an external one). If you download to one location and then move it elsewhere to be used for playout, I do believe you then need ProDub.


Just a query... if he is format shifting, would he require a ProDub Licence seeing as he wouldn't be charging for his services?

I thought this licence was only needed if the music was used for commercial use... otherwise, surely everyone who format shifts music would need one, regardless of whether they are a DJ or not?

Just asking, not trying to cause a stir :)


Scott, that's how I understood it. Matt, you're right, but as far as I know ( and even on a good day that's not much ) wasn't it understood that the powers that be were going to use the Nelsonian attitude* when dealing with the general public in this matter? Don't take that as gospel, of course.


*Turn a blind eye.


The BPI said they wouldn't be pursuing people who ripped their own CDs to a computer for non commercial purposes, but it still isn't officially a legal practise.

As Darren said, BPI made a clear statement confirming they wouldn't chase private individuals who copied music cross-platform (ie from CD to their portable music players) for non-commercial, private use. They said they only wanted to pursue the big pirates who were responsible for costing the industry £millions in lost revenue. I think, so long you're not accepting any kind of payment (including drinks bought for you!) then you'd be fine.


Ah this is getting a little clearer. I suppose my main worry is if a friend books somewhere for a party and asks me to Dj for them and I turn up and find the venue wont let me play cos I dont have the right licences.

When I get a booking in I always contact the venue directly to see if they need me to provide anything. That way, I know in advance what their policies are and there's no nasty suprises on the day (or night - you get what I mean!!).

[paul1404]

PLI is not expensive by the way
Also is a great selling point
I take copies of the license to every venue I play at and give to them
It makes customers / Venues fell as if you are professional and gives them piece of mind

Also you never know what and who are at discos always cover your back

just read some of the stories on here about what goes wrong - when music/booze/people are involved - ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN lol

[Retrodisco]

I'm a DJ, maybe I'll get an instrument and trying playing in a band for fun.....see where this is going...

Having the gear doesn't make you a DJ, there is a skill set involved that those on the outside do not see. There's far more to it than a few pieces of paper to say you are insured, etc.

Do you have the music required and the knowledge of it to put it into a useable order, to pull off a party? Including requests? Music for all types of people and tastes? The average DJ has around 10000 tracks to cover all bases.

However, I do wish you good luck with your venture:D

[funkymook]

I'm a DJ, maybe I'll get an instrument and trying playing in a band for fun.....see where this is going...

Having the gear doesn't make you a DJ, there is a skill set involved that those on the outside do not see. There's far more to it than a few pieces of paper to say you are insured, etc.

Do you have the music required and the knowledge of it to put it into a useable order, to pull off a party? Including requests? Music for all types of people and tastes? The average DJ has around 10000 tracks to cover all bases.

However, I do wish you good luck with your venture:D

And I'm sure if you did decide to take up an instrument and joined a forum you'd get a lot of encouragement and help, offers to jam etc.

It matters not where people are starting from, they fact they join MDD and ask questions means they are open to advice - no doubt the points you raise will come up if and when necessary.

[DazzyD]

I'm a DJ, maybe I'll get an instrument and trying playing in a band for fun.....see where this is going...

Having the gear doesn't make you a DJ, there is a skill set involved that those on the outside do not see. There's far more to it than a few pieces of paper to say you are insured, etc.

Do you have the music required and the knowledge of it to put it into a useable order, to pull off a party? Including requests? Music for all types of people and tastes? The average DJ has around 10000 tracks to cover all bases.

However, I do wish you good luck with your venture:D

I think that's a bit harsh. We all started somewhere and I'm pretty sure, when I did all those years ago, I didn't have 10k tracks and the experience to deal with every situation. I built this up over time and I still don't have everything. The fact is that the OP is just starting off and he wants to do thing right - this is evident from the questions he's asking. He doesn't sound like the average Sid who wants to come in, undercut the regular guys and bring down people's ideas of what a DJ should be. What's more, he's only a few miles along the road from me so could be classed as a direct competitor but, to be honest, I think we need more competitors up here that can help raise the bar and show people that DJing can, and should, be done properly. This will be good for the public, who get to see our real value, and for the DJs as they get the money they deserve.


And I'm sure if you did decide to take up an instrument and joined a forum you'd get a lot of encouragement and help, offers to jam etc.

It matters not where people are starting from, they fact they join MDD and ask questions means they are open to advice - no doubt the points you raise will come up if and when necessary.

:like:

[jaylaw]

I'm a DJ, maybe I'll get an instrument and trying playing in a band for fun.....see where this is going...

Having the gear doesn't make you a DJ, there is a skill set involved that those on the outside do not see. There's far more to it than a few pieces of paper to say you are insured, etc.

Do you have the music required and the knowledge of it to put it into a useable order, to pull off a party? Including requests? Music for all types of people and tastes? The average DJ has around 10000 tracks to cover all bases.

However, I do wish you good luck with your venture:D

Well I have done a couple of parties using borrowed gear for friends, a 50 year anniversary party and a kids party and the feedback I received was superb beyond my expectations. Actually I got another 2 offers to do parties from people at these but had to turn them down as I didnt own my own equipment. Now I have it and am able to do the parties I'm worried I'll still have to turn them down because I havent got the licences. That's why I'm here asking people who know their stuff for advice!


I think that's a bit harsh. We all started somewhere and I'm pretty sure, when I did all those years ago, I didn't have 10k tracks and the experience to deal with every situation. I built this up over time and I still don't have everything. The fact is that the OP is just starting off and he wants to do thing right - this is evident from the questions he's asking. He doesn't sound like the average Sid who wants to come in, undercut the regular guys and bring down people's ideas of what a DJ should be. What's more, he's only a few miles along the road from me so could be classed as a direct competitor but, to be honest, I think we need more competitors up here that can help raise the bar and show people that DJing can, and should, be done properly. This will be good for the public, who get to see our real value, and for the DJs as they get the money they deserve.



:like:

Thanks for the support Dazz. Where abouts are you from? And dont worry about competiton mate, as I said earlier, for me at the moment it's just a hobby and something I can have a bit of fun doing for mates and family. I'm a million miles away from being a proffessional/business! lol

[DazzyD]

Thanks for the support Dazz. Where abouts are you from? And dont worry about competiton mate, as I said earlier, for me at the moment it's just a hobby and something I can have a bit of fun doing for mates and family. I'm a million miles away from being a proffessional/business! lol

No problem. I'm from Houghton and I remember what it was like when I started. I didn't jump straight in but gained experience working for other multi-ops first. That's how I learned the business and I still think this is the best way. I don't think that starting on your own with no experience is a particularly good idea, however, with the support, help and advice from others on here I think it can be done. However, before I got in to DJing, I worked as promotor for local bands putting on shows around the region and, generally, raising their profile. So, I'm been involved in the music business for some time!

[jaylaw]

SO the bottom line then:

For a person (ME) providing a disco at no charge, solely for friends and family, on a word-of-mouth basis,

the minimum I would be required to have to play anywhere other than the house would be

PLI, PAT and produb licences??

[Dynamic Entertainment]

SO the bottom line then:

For a person (ME) providing a disco at no charge, solely for friends and family, on a word-of-mouth basis,

the minimum I would be required to have to play anywhere other than the house would be

PLI, PAT and Produb licences??

Maybe :daft: Lol

PAT - Yes
PLI - Yes

ProDub - That's the maybe.

How have you sourced your music?
If its ripped from a CD collection, they yes, Produb is required.
If you've downloaded all your MP3's from an online store (Amazon, etc) directly to the machine you're using to DJ with, then Produb is not required.

Whilst you're not operating as a business (as such), its also worth baring in mind that Motor Insurance will possibly also need to be for business use (you'll definitely need to check with your insurer).

[Kernow]

PLI, PAT and produb licences??

Licence singular (Produb)
PLI is insurance and PAT is electrical safety testing, both of which are certificates. ;)

[Kernow]

How have you sourced your music?
If its ripped from a CD collection, they yes, Produb is required.
If you've downloaded all your MP3's from an online store (Amazon, etc) directly to the machine you're using to DJ with, then Produb is not required.

And also if you burn legitimate downloads onto Audio CD/DVD which you then play in public ?

[Dynamic Entertainment]

And also if you burn legitimate downloads onto Audio CD/DVD which you then play in public ?

Yep....

Or Vinyl to 2, CD to 8Track etc etc ;)

Heres the best bit about ProDub...the Tidy Boys (people at the for front of hard dance, managers of Tidy Trax, and one of them is the son of the guy who owns Music Factory)....knew nothing about the licence!!!! Go after the little people because its easier to get us ;)

[Kernow]

Go after the little people because its easier to get us ;)

There's nothing little about those who pay more UK Tax than Amazon, Google and Starbucks combined ? :eek: ;)
:D:D

[Dynamic Entertainment]

There's nothing little about those who pay more UK Tax than Amazon, Google and Starbucks combined ? :eek: ;)
:D:D

It says something though when the people who run/ran the founding label of an entire genre dont know about ProRob though.... ;)

[funkymook]

It says something though when the people who run/ran the founding label of an entire genre dont know about ProRob though.... ;)

It does - about them!

[jaylaw]

But realistically, if i'm doing this as a non proffessional, non profit setup PURELY playing at PRIVATE parties, will I ever be asked for this??

I cant afford to fork out a couple of hundred quid just in case a produb inspector shows up at one of the 3 or so parties I do in a year????

I could understand if I was a professional DJ advertising for work or a resident DJ in a club or something. Surely what I'm doing is just the same as someone taking theyre Ipod to a party in a hired hall and sticking it through some speakers?

[Excalibur]

But realistically, if i'm doing this as a non professional, non profit setup PURELY playing at PRIVATE parties, will I ever be asked for this??

No, and you won't need it either, as many of us have said previously in this thread. However:



I could understand if I was a professional DJ advertising for work or a resident DJ in a club or something. Surely what I'm doing is just the same as someone taking their Ipod to a party in a hired hall and sticking it through some speakers?

The onus will be on you to prove that you're not doing it for hire or reward.


This whole area is greyer than a battleship full of elephants on a foggy day. It has been known for two people to ask the same question, and receive differing answers from the same organisation.

My advice? Buy PLI. As pointed out here, it can be obtained for as little as thirty quid, and it is vital to have. ( But again, as I said before, not a legal requirement. more anomalies. ) Get your kit PAT tested. Ask around, there'll be someone local who is recommended. Don't pay over the odds for it, the charges vary greatly. Without a PAT cert, your PLI may be invalidated in the event of a claim. Again, may. For what it will cost you, it's a no brainer. If you've got say twenty mains cables and bits of kit, it shouldn't cost a lot. Good luck.

[DazzyD]

Yep....

Or Vinyl to 2, CD to 8Track etc etc ;)

Heres the best bit about ProDub...the Tidy Boys (people at the for front of hard dance, managers of Tidy Trax, and one of them is the son of the guy who owns Music Factory)....knew nothing about the licence!!!! Go after the little people because its easier to get us ;)

Funny you should state that. This is the very reason I decided to avoid ProDub completely and rebuild my DJing music library using legal downloads direct to my gigging hard-drive. It was actually to do with the karaoke "uplift" bit. I wrote to the major karaoke disc manufacturers and all but one said that, as far as they were concerned, they allowed MP3+G rips as they had already paid the fees to licence the tracks in the first place and it was up to the customer what they did with the discs. These included Sunfly who seemed totally oblivious to the existence of ProDub despite it being something that would ultimately have an effect on their business. The one manufacturer who provided a different stance told me that "it might be" in my "best interest to obtain the licence just to cover" myself. Hardly a ringing endorsement for ProDub. I tried to query this directly with ProDub and, a few years on, have still not had a response. I think this speaks volumes. But, we've done all this before so I'll leave it there.

[funkymook]

Starting to veer off topic now - the scenario's where ProDub is required have been stated which is all that's asked for on this thread.

Plenty of other threads to resurrect if anybody feels the need to go over the rights and wrongs of the licence.

[katman]

This is the very reason I decided to avoid ProDub completely and rebuild my DJing music library using legal downloads direct to my gigging hard-drive.

Apologies for one last Pro-dub related question but....

given the general confusion surrounding produb, how do you get on when you turn up at a venue that is aware of produb and insists on seeing a valid licence before they will allow you to perform. How do you convince them that you are exempt from needing one ? and moreover, is this covered in your contracts in the event that you cant do a gig because the venue wont let you through the door ?

[jaylaw]

No, and you won't need it either, as many of us have said previously in this thread. However:



The onus will be on you to prove that you're not doing it for hire or reward.


This whole area is greyer than a battleship full of elephants on a foggy day. It has been known for two people to ask the same question, and receive differing answers from the same organisation.

My advice? Buy PLI. As pointed out here, it can be obtained for as little as thirty quid, and it is vital to have. ( But again, as I said before, not a legal requirement. more anomalies. ) Get your kit PAT tested. Ask around, there'll be someone local who is recommended. Don't pay over the odds for it, the charges vary greatly. Without a PAT cert, your PLI may be invalidated in the event of a claim. Again, may. For what it will cost you, it's a no brainer. If you've got say twenty mains cables and bits of kit, it shouldn't cost a lot. Good luck.

That's all I wanted to know! Thanks excalibur!

[DazzyD]

Apologies for one last Pro-dub related question but....

given the general confusion surrounding produb, how do you get on when you turn up at a venue that is aware of produb and insists on seeing a valid licence before they will allow you to perform. How do you convince them that you are exempt from needing one ? and moreover, is this covered in your contracts in the event that you cant do a gig because the venue wont let you through the door ?

I know it's slightly off-topic (but may be useful to the OP as he's starting out) so I'll answer this one. I always contact the venue in advance and speak to them about what they need from me and what I need from them. Licences and certificates always get brought up (by me, though, not once has a venue mentioned ProDub) so these issues are ironed out at an early stage. I mentioned before that I always check things with the venue soon after the booking enquiry comes in. This way there are no last minute suprises and the scenario you describe isn't allowed to arise! :)

Alternatively, as a backup, I have all my download receipts stored in an email folder and the venue are welcome to have a look!

[katman]

Thanks Darren, useful answer as I am just starting up again and all these licence and insurance requirements are new to me. Didnt have to worry about things like that in the 70's and 80's

[Vectis]

Thanks Darren, useful answer as I am just starting up again and all these licence and insurance requirements are new to me. Didnt have to worry about things like that in the 70's and 80's

Yep - you can thank "Injury Lawyers 4 U" and their cronies for that one! :mad:

[DazzyD]

Yep - you can thank "Injury Lawyers 4 U" and their cronies for that one! :mad:

:eek:

:rofl:

[mattydj50]

Best not mention the tax man then!


I think the simple answer regarding ProDub is it is only needed when the music you are playing commercially (i.e. in public) is not in the same format as it was when you purchased it.

That's why I'm still carting round two cases of CDs because I don't yet want to pay the ProDub fee (nor have I got the time to rip off all my CDs)!

[Kernow]

Yep - you can thank "Injury Lawyers 4 U" and their cronies for that one! :mad:


The "Validators" ?
:sofa:

:D