Change to terms re: weather?

[Jonathan Ford]

Given the prevailing weather conditions, the fact that I live a good distance from the nearest treated road, and that the venue I'm at tonight has a long private drive over farmland which I highly doubt they'll clear or treat, I have found it prudent to hire a 4x4 to ensure that I can get to this weekends gigs. However, it's no secret that I'm a mercenary sod, and am pretty peeved at having had to drop the best part of £300 sheets over a bit of snow.

Has anyone got a clause in their terms for recovering expense like this from clients?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I haven't as yet but maybe I should do?
When we had the really bad snow a few years back (3 or 4?), I was setting up for a function and it started coming down. I carried on setting up and thought nothing of it but by the time I had finished it was horrendous outside. No word of a lie, it took me the best part of 6 hours to travel the 3 mile journey back to my house. I was actually stuck on the roundabout by my house (200 metres away) for 90 minutes!
Whilst stuck in the traffic I called the customer and left a voicemail for them to get back to me to see what the score was. When I got in my wife said that they had left a message to say that they were cancelling the gig.

Bear with me because there is a point to this.....

Because they cancelled due to the weather and I had spent over an hour setting up and then the travel hassle (not their fault obviously) and then having to go back to get the equipment out the next day in severe conditions (which took over 2 hours), I treated it as a normal cancellation. However, because the weather conditions were not their fault I said that if they wanted to re-arrange the date I would give them a discount. They re-booked and I did give them a discount. It was for a well known Bingo company.

I don't think I needed to give them a discount - I just did because I wanted to. It wasn't a massive one either. I think it was 25% off. When the re-booking came around it was an excellent night and it didn't do me any damage because they've used me twice since.

[funkymook]

Think you'll have trouble getting extra money to do what you're contracted to do, people sort of expect you to get to the venue without charging them extra for it. Better off having a clear bad weather cancellation clause in your T&C's and thinking about what gigs you accept if the weather can be an issue for you.

[lazersounds]

I have this in my T&C'S, Nobody has ever questioned it, prob don't read it! lol

Lazer Sounds Entertainments will not be liable for failing to attend a booking, where the reason for non-attendance or late arrival is caused by adverse weather conditions including Snow & Flooding), vehicle breakdown, road closure, road traffic accident, fuel shortages, industrial action, zombie attack, acts of terrorism or other any other unavoidable circumstances beyond our control.

[DJ Jules]

Think you'll have trouble getting extra money to do what you're contracted to do, people sort of expect you to get to the venue without charging them extra for it.

I agree with this, and this was my first reaction - however, if you do levy an additional charge for your attendance then it will make clients think twice whether to go ahead and pay the premium for a party that no-one may be able to attend, or whether to call it quits, cancel and risk paying your full booking fee (but no more) - but potentially being able to change the booking date for a small premium (at your discretion). It puts you in a much stronger position to negotiate an outcome in your favour.


Lazer Sounds Entertainments will not be liable for failing to attend a booking, where the reason for non-attendance or late arrival is caused by adverse weather conditions including Snow & Flooding), vehicle breakdown, road closure, road traffic accident,

Does that mean you can cry off because of vehicle breakdown and still claim a full booking fee? If so, I reckon no-one's reading your T&C's :D


, fuel shortages, industrial action, zombie attack, acts of terrorism or other any other unavoidable circumstances beyond our control.

You usually see something like "Acts of God" in insurance policies and the likes. Personally I prefer the above specifics. I'm not actually sure what you class as an "Act of God" (assuming that the customer even believes in God).

Julian

[lazersounds]

I suspose technically I could cry off with a vehicle breakdown but like to think I'm more professional than that, I've never not shown for a gig, a few years ago I setup early in the morning and walked 2 miles in 8" of snow later that day for a wedding :)

I know people don't read it otherwise more would mention the zombie clause.... :D

[Excalibur]

I know people don't read it otherwise more would mention the zombie clause.... :D

Why? :confused:I thought that was a fairly standard inclusion in most contracts. :whistle: And don't forget the Sanity Clause. ;);) ( For our younger readers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Night_at_the_Opera_(film) )

OK, serious time. I don't think that a surcharge for hiring in kit to ensure your arrival is a runner. I'd say that if punters can make it in a normal car or van, then you have a duty to do so. If however you can't get out of your street to get on the major roads, again, you're on a sticky wicket. I had a gig cancelled in January due to a forecast of Snow, ( poor ticket sales, actually, but Snow was a better excuse ) and I know that travelling wouldn't have been a problem.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I'd agree with this too.
The thing is, SOME customers MAY not actually care how you make it to their gig just as long as you do or if you can't, you get a replacement if they are able to make it.
I have a prime example of this and I told my missus this last night.
Luckily I have the weekend off because I have to get up at silly o'clock tomorrow morning to take her to the hospital as she is going in for an operation. She only got her date for it on Monday so has been working very hard and late this week to get things sorted. I've mentioned it before but she runs her own business making wedding dresses etc...
She found out on Monday which was her day off so she started calling her customers that were collecting this week to let them know what the score was. She didn't have any wedding dresses to be collected but a number of items that had been in for alterations. One customer got the hump because they couldn't pick their item up on Saturday despite my missus making arrangements for it to be delivered to her. She just wouldn't have it because she wanted to collect it from the shop.

This is what I am getting at and I tried to put it across nicely last night. Some people don't really care about how you run your business just as long as they get the service that you are there to provide. She isn't bothered about my missus having an operation just as long as her garments have been altered and in a way that's rightly so isn't it. The garment was done and could have been delivered (delivery paid by my wife) but the customer kicked up a stink.

I have to add - The garment could have been delivered BEFORE Saturday so I don't actually understand why this customer is being a pain?

To use the same scenario in a Disco booking situation..... If the customer can get to their function and a number of their guests can too and it isn't too far to travel then every effort should be made to get there. They don't care if you've had to hire in a 4 x 4, Helicopter or whatever because they've paid for a service and expect the service to be provided.

I know I've gone around that the long way but I hope you know what I am trying to get at?

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Does that mean you can cry off because of vehicle breakdown and still claim a full booking fee? If so, I reckon no-one's reading your T&C's :D



You usually see something like "Acts of God" in insurance policies and the likes. Personally I prefer the above specifics. I'm not actually sure what you class as an "Act of God" (assuming that the customer even believes in God).

Julian


You can't not turn up because you're car is gubbed and still claim a fee but if you have a clause like that in it means that you're covered incase you can't make it and if you refund whatever they've paid, they can't try to squeeze more out of you. That's how I've got my back covered anyway.

I'm pretty sure a clause like that where legally speaking, you could not bother turning up to any gigs and still claim a full fee wouldn't hold up in a court as a contract needs to be mutually beneficial to both parties and one with a clause like that is VERY weighted in favour of the DJ. Case in point, a local guy had a total cluster:Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: last week whereby he thought he'd passed the gig on to someone else, the other guy didn't turn up due to crossed wires, someone else had to step in and so on.

It was a genuine mistake and he refunded her the money and offered to do another date for her as a way to compensate but if he had a clause like that in his contract and the :Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: hit the fan, there's nothing stopping him saying "my cars broke, can't make, btw you're not getting your money back" It wouldn't wash and it certainly wouldn't do him any favours PR wise.

As for acts of God, I think that it's intentionally vague so that a massive range of conditions could be argued as acts of god. It's essentially an insurance company construct because they're a shower of sleekit robbing :Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: :Censored::Censored:s. :)


DISCLAIMER: I did a bit of music business and contract law back in college and uni so I'm maybe a bit more clued up than your average person but it was a number of years ago and the stuff is quite subjective so don't quote me on any of this except for the part about insurance companies being scum.

[lazersounds]

You can't not turn up because you're car is gubbed and still claim a fee but if you have a clause like that in it means that you're covered incase you can't make it and if you refund whatever they've paid, they can't try to squeeze more out of you. That's how I've got my back covered anyway.

I'm pretty sure a clause like that where legally speaking, you could not bother turning up to any gigs and still claim a full fee wouldn't hold up in a court as a contract needs to be mutually beneficial to both parties and one with a clause like that is VERY weighted in favour of the DJ. Case in point, a local guy had a total cluster:Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: last week whereby he thought he'd passed the gig on to someone else, the other guy didn't turn up due to crossed wires, someone else had to step in and so on.

It was a genuine mistake and he refunded her the money and offered to do another date for her as a way to compensate but if he had a clause like that in his contract and the :Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: hit the fan, there's nothing stopping him saying "my cars broke, can't make, btw you're not getting your money back" It wouldn't wash and it certainly wouldn't do him any favours PR wise.

As for acts of God, I think that it's intentionally vague so that a massive range of conditions could be argued as acts of god. It's essentially an insurance company construct because they're a shower of sleekit robbing :Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: :Censored::Censored:s. :)


DISCLAIMER: I did a bit of music business and contract law back in college and uni so I'm maybe a bit more clued up than your average person but it was a number of years ago and the stuff is quite subjective so don't quote me on any of this except for the part about insurance companies being scum.

Maybe I should add that the clause is there should the car break down and i'm running late not so if I break down I just can't be bothered to turn up. Again touch wood this has never happened but its purely there should the car break down, theres a traffic accident etc and I turn up 10-15 minutes late and they ask for a part refund :)

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Maybe I should add that the clause is there should the car break down and i'm running late not so if I break down I just can't be bothered to turn up. Again touch wood this has never happened but its purely there should the car break down, theres a traffic accident etc and I turn up 10-15 minutes late and they ask for a part refund :)

I can't remember the specific terming but in that case I'm covered by something like I'm not liable for cancellation or lateness due to unforeseen circumstances.

Unforeseen circumstances is another one of those great vague legal terms :)

[Silver Bullet]

Sometimes I can't believe what I am reading on these forums :(
Get out clause for this, not liable for that, extra money for the other ..............
Whatever happened to just going and doing the job, providing the service that we get paid for, and fairly well paid TBH

I have been doing this job for 25 years, gone out in hail, snow, gale and flood. I have NEVER not turned up and NEVER charged any extra for my troubles. Often however the customer is so pleased you've made the effort, they have given a generous bonus.

Just last night I got a phone call, there had been a mix up with another DJ, crossed wires led to him getting the date wrong. I was asked could I go, unfortunately I was snowed in and said I was not able to get out. The customer organised a tractor to tow me out to a main road. I went did the job and was handsomely rewarded. Happy parents, and happy 21 year old daughter.
I did it because I am proud to call myself a mobile DJ! and provide the best service I can whatever the conditions.
My van is now stuck half a mile down the road, at a neighbours, but I will get it back sometime.


Fair enough, we do live in a litigious age and you may feel the need to cover against claims for not turning up due to acts of God, but to actually claim extra, or indeed to have a get out for mechanical breakdown :Censored:

[DazzyD]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because, to be honest, where I live we very rarely get weather severe enough to cause disruption like this. I live on a main road which is always well gritted and can always reach the bigger roads out of town. Because of this, I've never not made it to a gig in the last 14 DJs I've been doing this job.

My USP is a special guarantee whereby we have a set and automatic compensation structure for any event that we fail to turn up at. As we've never failed to turn up before, this guarantee has never been invoked. But I do have a contingency plan for adverse conditions and foreseen problems so, in most cases, there should be no, or very minimal, risk to us being able to actually get to the venue. But this thread has made me think. It's all fine and dandy being able to leave the house, the street and the town but what if access to the venue is cut off in the venue's town or village? This would mean that the guests couldn't get there either. So I'm thinking of adding a clause to my guarantee that states an exception is when the venue is inaccessible to the point that the guests can't arrive.

>>>>goes off to change wording on guarantee and contracts!!!

[Jonathan Ford]

Well, I hired a 4x4....cost me £211!! Set up early in the day, and despite the several inches of snow at my home, there wasn't a single bloody flake at the venue!! So, by mid-afternoon I was pretty peeved at what I thought would be a total waste of money. However, by the time I had to return to the venue, the snow was coming thick and fast. By the drive home, it was terrible, and there was no way I'd have made it home without the 4x4. As it stands, the Land Rover is currently abandoned by the side of the road a few hundred yards from my gaff with my gear in it!

In terms of my question, I just wondered if anyone had considered this in their terms. Though I don't think the client should be out of pocket, I equally don't think I should...and I care about my own bank balance far more than my clients bank balance! Part of the reason for my question is that it's pretty common place with contractors who give a fixed price for a job, but come across an unforseen and expensive eventuality. They don't simply suck up the additional cost - they pass it on. While I would never want to cancel, I may have to introduce a more prominent term for winter bookings. Though my clients had a great night, I'm far from happy about the reduction to my profit on the gigs. And after all, that's what it's about.

[funkymook]

Well, I hired a 4x4....cost me £211!! Set up early in the day, and despite the several inches of snow at my home, there wasn't a single bloody flake at the venue!! So, by mid-afternoon I was pretty peeved at what I thought would be a total waste of money. However, by the time I had to return to the venue, the snow was coming thick and fast. By the drive home, it was terrible, and there was no way I'd have made it home without the 4x4. As it stands, the Land Rover is currently abandoned by the side of the road a few hundred yards from my gaff with my gear in it!

In terms of my question, I just wondered if anyone had considered this in their terms. Though I don't think the client should be out of pocket, I equally don't think I should...and I care about my own bank balance far more than my clients bank balance! Part of the reason for my question is that it's pretty common place with contractors who give a fixed price for a job, but come across an unforseen and expensive eventuality. They don't simply suck up the additional cost - they pass it on. While I would never want to cancel, I may have to introduce a more prominent term for winter bookings. Though my clients had a great night, I'm far from happy about the reduction to my profit on the gigs. And after all, that's what it's about.

Raise your prices! This is a business expense you should factor it in - an extra £10/£20 per gig should cover the odd occasion you get caught out. Raise them a bit more and you could afford to buy your own a 4x4.

[Jonathan Ford]

Raise your prices! This is a business expense you should factor it in - an extra £10/£20 per gig should cover the odd occasion you get caught out. Raise them a bit more and you could afford to buy your own a 4x4.

Ha! I'll do just that (kicking myself for not having thought of it...). I did have a Jeep Grand Cherokee a couple of cars ago, but it was a 4L petrol engine. I had to get rid of it when I became a student...wasn't the most economical motor for a 90 mile round trip every day!

[musicologydisco]

Sometimes I can't believe what I am reading on these forums :(
Get out clause for this, not liable for that, extra money for the other ..............
Whatever happened to just going and doing the job, providing the service that we get paid for, and fairly well paid TBH

I have been doing this job for 25 years, gone out in hail, snow, gale and flood. I have NEVER not turned up and NEVER charged any extra for my troubles. Often however the customer is so pleased you've made the effort, they have given a generous bonus.

Just last night I got a phone call, there had been a mix up with another DJ, crossed wires led to him getting the date wrong. I was asked could I go, unfortunately I was snowed in and said I was not able to get out. The customer organised a tractor to tow me out to a main road. I went did the job and was handsomely rewarded. Happy parents, and happy 21 year old daughter.
I did it because I am proud to call myself a mobile DJ! and provide the best service I can whatever the conditions.
My van is now stuck half a mile down the road, at a neighbours, but I will get it back sometime.


Fair enough, we do live in a litigious age and you may feel the need to cover against claims for not turning up due to acts of God, but to actually claim extra, or indeed to have a get out for mechanical breakdown :Censored:

:agree:

[funkymook]

To be fair though - if any one of us had to spend out nearly the whole fee in an expense and could see the situation arising again then you'd be daft not to ask what other people did in the same circumstances (or how they avoided them in the first place). OK passing the charge directly onto the client probably wasn't going to be the answer, but sometimes you have to ask about every option, if only to dismiss them.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Sometimes I can't believe what I am reading on these forums :(
Get out clause for this, not liable for that, extra money for the other ..............
Whatever happened to just going and doing the job, providing the service that we get paid for, and fairly well paid TBH

I have been doing this job for 25 years, gone out in hail, snow, gale and flood. I have NEVER not turned up and NEVER charged any extra for my troubles. Often however the customer is so pleased you've made the effort, they have given a generous bonus.

Just last night I got a phone call, there had been a mix up with another DJ, crossed wires led to him getting the date wrong. I was asked could I go, unfortunately I was snowed in and said I was not able to get out. The customer organised a tractor to tow me out to a main road. I went did the job and was handsomely rewarded. Happy parents, and happy 21 year old daughter.
I did it because I am proud to call myself a mobile DJ! and provide the best service I can whatever the conditions.
My van is now stuck half a mile down the road, at a neighbours, but I will get it back sometime.


Fair enough, we do live in a litigious age and you may feel the need to cover against claims for not turning up due to acts of God, but to actually claim extra, or indeed to have a get out for mechanical breakdown :Censored:

How is covering your back legally anything but a good idea?

I've never missed a gig (touch wood) but I know plenty of guys who did a few years back when that mad snow hit. y brother spent 3 hours to get 4 miles for a gig that was 40 odd miles away, that's not going to happen, as far as I'm aware, most of the guests for that particular wedding couldn't even make it. I couldnt make it into my day job which was pretty much a straight motorway drive for close to 2 weeks, people were having to sleep in the building and so on because travel was impossible and this is in Glasgow and it's outlying towns so what were the odds of me being able to get to a gig somewhere in the sticks safely?

If I can't make a gig for whatever reason then the customer gets all of the money paid to me back and as far as possible, I'll try to get a replacement but I don't see why I should open myself up to potentially ending up out of pocket by a client chasing me up for more compo when a let down is going to be something that was unavoidable at my end.

My contract was drawn up professionally hence why it covers just about every eventuality, that's what the brief was paid for, if people are going to make up their own contract sthen that's fine but they might be leaving themselves open to problems.

And besides, that civil war clause might come in handy in a few years after the referendum :o

[Excalibur]

To use the same scenario in a Disco booking situation..... If the customer can get to their function and a number of their guests can too and it isn't too far to travel then every effort should be made to get there. They don't care if you've had to hire in a 4 x 4, Helicopter or whatever because they've paid for a service and expect the service to be provided.

I know I've gone around that the long way but I hope you know what I am trying to get at?
Gary, you have summed it up exactly with that. Totally, utterly, and absolutely correct.


To be fair though - if any one of us had to spend out nearly the whole fee in an expense and could see the situation arising again then you'd be daft not to ask what other people did in the same circumstances (or how they avoided them in the first place).
Painful though it may be, if vehicle hire is the only answer, it's the only answer. Before that though, I'd have been calling in any favours owed by mates with a 4x4.

[intensesound]

weather terriable im sure i had my shorts on last year and just to top it have a nice long day in centre of london tomorrow and im doing a wedding in the middle of no where tonight i could really do with a 4x4 instead of a van :)

[katman]

Painful though it may be, if vehicle hire is the only answer, it's the only answer.

Following this thread with interest but the vehicle hire option has got me wondering.

Back when I first started before I got my own van (79-81) I used to hire a van from a local company who did a weekend "moonlighter" offer of £10 for an Escort van. He never had any because the oil companies had all the Escorts on long term hire so I used to get a Transit for the weekend for £10 and if I could get two gigs at £50 each I was quids in. Sadly that company no longer exists.

Just been looking at the local care hire places, and the two independent ones we have, one doesn't open on Saturday at all and the other is only open 9-12. Neither of them list 4x4 vehicles among their portfolio. The only national chain we have in town is Enterprise but again its a small branch and often they have to bring vehicles in from other branches eg Norwich which is 20 miles away.

My wife used to work for a car rental company in the USA and has just confirmed that they only had a few 4x4's at her branch which was in the state capital and often they were out on hire to the military and they had to get them in from other branches.

If we suddenly get hit by bad weather, it occurs to me that the local hire companies may not have stock of the required vehicle type and even if they do, they may not be open or be able to get their out of hours to provide a vehicle even if they would be prepared to do so.

Just tried a test booking on Enterprise for next Saturday and I would have to hire it for three days because they aren't open on Sundays and Monday is a bank holiday.

I think it is vital to have a correctly worded clause in your T&Cs because even with the best intentions in the world a situation can arise which you are totally unable to overcome.

I have only ever missed one gig, back in February 1979 when I was due to do a free night for a local Youth club. We had loads of snow and it was bitterly cold and there was no way my dads Camper Van was going to start. We tried everything, easy start, warming the spark plugs, and flattening three huge car batteries trying to no avail. We concluded that there must have been some water in the fuel line which had frozen because the next day it started first time!!!. Couldn't use my car because it was trapped behind the immovable van. The Youth Club were very understanding about it but that was a quarter century before "Sue, Grabbit & Run" were allowed to advertise on TV and common sense prevailed.