Client Booking Cancellation.

[SC Events]

Hi All,

I received an enquiry in 2012 to DJ for a Wedding this year. An amount was agreed and the signed booking contract and deposit were received.

However, a few months later, I received an email to say that "Due to unforeseen circumstances, can we please change our date to 2014", so this was done without extra charge and a new contract issued, which was signed... sorted you might think? Oh no...

Early this year, I received another email saying "Due to unforeseen circumstances, can we please change our date to 2015" So again, being soft, I changed the date without extra charge, but told the client if they wanted to move the date again, then I would charge them another deposit of £100.

About 4 months ago, the client out-of-the-blue paid me the remaining amount of money (and through PayPal which I never once stated that I even accepted) and so I assumed now everything was finally going to go to plan...

Yesterday, I received an email saying "Due to unforeseen circumstances, can I please cancel the booking with you for 2015 and can you also refund any money except the deposit and PayPal charges"

This has annoyed me somewhat, as despite being a cancellation, I have moved the date for the client twice at no extra charge and i've had to spend time re-issuing contracts etc.

I do have a line within my Terms & Conditions that says "Any monies paid to SC Events is non-refundable under any circumstances" therefore, although she is within the cancellation clause of 1 month for still being charged 100% of the fee, as she has already paid the money, I am reluctant to refund it due to being messed about so much.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[Excalibur]

Scott, I'm missing something here. The date of the function is 2015, so surely they won't be liable to lose anything except the deposit? I don't see how you can hang onto the lot. I reckon you could keep the Paypal fees, as the customer says, the deposit of course, and perhaps a small handling charge.

Not really my specialist subject, so it's only personal opinion, not hard facts. Sorry.

[yourdj]

I am no legal expert either but you have already accepted moving the date so thats a done deal.
Either way you have done that in good faith so you are just left with the balance, the booking fee and your cancelation policy.

I cant see why any payment is not refundable by law as that seems a bit stingy to me as you have more than enough time to cover that date (2 years). I have a teared system over a certain amount of months and anything from 6months then the whole balance is refunded, but the booking fee retained - up to one month 100%. Even then i have still used my judgement in each case and often just refunded clients.

i would charge them an admin fee plus the booking fee (its not a deposit as you have to pay deposits back) and call it quits. :)
See how long it has taken you to do the admin and then charge them a reasonable rate as this is very strange. £25 an hour or so, which will probably work out at £50.

[deltic]

I'm with peter on this one keep the deposit plus the paypal fees, and return the balance… no need to make unnesesary enemies.

[musicologydisco]

Yep. Give it back

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Agree with Peter...

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Have to agree with the guys here. You've got the deposits for doing nothing and if you do add an admin fee (personally I'd be a bit hesitant to do this if you keep both deposits) then you've got a nice little wad for not doing a whole lot.

If you keep the money then you risk having your name run down which in the days of Facebook isn't a good idea business wise.

As an aside, I can't see how you could possibly enforce a clause which states any money you receive is non refundable and it may give you problems down the line if anyone ever takes you to court over your contract.

Even if it's not specifically to do with that clause, a contract has to be "mutually beneficial" and if it's too heavilly sided in favour of one party (which in this case I'd say the no refunds at all is a big weighing in your favour) then the whole contract can be deemed null and void... Just something to consider.

[yourdj]

you've got a nice little wad for not doing a whole lot.


Good point. I would personally probably just keep the booking fee given the fact they have changed the date twice.
If it was for a booking in 2015 I would probably refund the whole amount.

Its not a deposit as you have to pay a deposit back (unless stated as non refundable or on the agreement they have signed). :)

http://www.photography-forum.org/showthread.php/25240-The-Law-on-Deposits-Booking-Fees

[funkymook]

I agree with the majority of opinion above - unless you have (and can prove) that you lost business due to their rescheduling.

[DazzyD]

...
As an aside, I can't see how you could possibly enforce a clause which states any money you receive is non refundable and it may give you problems down the line if anyone ever takes you to court over your contract.

Even if it's not specifically to do with that clause, a contract has to be "mutually beneficial" and if it's too heavilly sided in favour of one party (which in this case I'd say the no refunds at all is a big weighing in your favour) then the whole contract can be deemed null and void... Just something to consider.

Jim is quite right. That paragraph in your contract appears exceptionally one sided and could easily contravene The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. A contract has to be a two-sided agreement. If it's weighted in favour of one party then it risks becoming unfair. I'd recommend that anyone who is drawing up a contract gets it checked over by a legal advisor before using it. It's the best way to ensure it is water-tight and then these problems don't occur.


...I have a teared system over a certain amount of months and anything from 6months then the whole balance is refunded, but the booking fee retained - up to one month 100%. Even then i have still used my judgement in each case and often just refunded clients.

...

I wouldn't cry over it! It's only business!! ;)

[yourdj]

I wouldn't cry over it! It's only business!! ;)

tiered :p

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I had something like this happen when I first started out.
On that occasion I refunded the full amount minus the booking fee / non-refundable desposit.
The customer booked me a couple of years later.
It was just a case of them not being able to afford everything at the time due to redundancy so I was told.

[Corabar Entertainment]

I know this is pretty done and dusted, but yes, I think your clause about keeping all the money if they pay it is likely to be classed as an unfair contract term. It's a PITA, but you agreed to the change of date(s) which, in effect, makes the contract read as if the new date was originally written therein. You can only keep what you are entitled to at this stage of any booking (which, for most of us, our contracts would specify loss of deposit plus fees)
Its not a deposit as you have to pay a deposit back (unless stated as non refundable or on the agreement they have signed). :)

http://www.photography-forum.org/showthread.php/25240-The-Law-on-Deposits-Booking-FeesAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::b ang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::ban g::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

[DazzyD]

Funny you should comment on this, Angela, today of all days!

I've been wondering why people on here use the phrase "non-refundable booking fee" instead of simply "deposit" for some time as the reasoning didn't quite make sense to me. The comments, like Toby had said, that it's because a deposit is returnable but a NRBF is not seem to have been the norm. But, today, I've been reading an article on such matters by a Consumer Rights Writer and Legal Advisor in such matters. Basically, a "deposit" is generally non-refundable for the following reason. When a consumer (anyone who buys goods or services - can be a personal transaction or a business one) pays a deposit to a vendor (a seller/provider of goods and/or services) they are entering in to an agreement to buy the full service or product from the vendor. Therefore, a contract is formed. If the consumer decides to not go through with that agreement to buy the full product/service then the vendor is entitled to retain the deposit, as compensation, due to the consumer breaking the terms of the contract (ie - to pay for the full service or product). The vendor may even be able to claim more than the deposit if the cancellation is at short notice meaning that they would be unlikely to resell the product or service in the same timescale or if they have incurred costs in maintaining their side of the agreement before the agreement was cancelled (this doesn't have to be cancelled at short notice). This gives them a "justifiable claim for loss of profit".

So, given this information, there is no reason at all why we shouldn't use the term "deposit" in our agreements. As such, I will be changing the wording in my T&Cs as people have often asked "What's a non-returnable booking fee?" as it's not a term they are familiar with (even though it's pretty self-explanatory!). I think going back to using the phrase "deposit" and including a paragraph that "deposits are non-returnable" is the way forward for me to avoid this confusion.

Just thought I'd point this out! :)

[SC Events]

I am going to refund her what's left after the booking fee, admin fee and PayPal charges have been deducted.

As I said, her original booking was for June this year, which she signed a contract for. She then asked me to change this to 2014 as they had changed their date. Then, in January, she came back saying could she change the date again, as they'd moved the date to 2015!

So i've issued 3 contracts, but only had one booking fee, as I probably unwisely said i'd move the date for free... providing the booking was still going to go ahead.

So, would I be wrong in deducting 2 further booking fees from the amount to be refunded now the booking is not going ahead???

[funkymook]

So, would I be wrong in deducting 2 further booking fees from the amount to be refunded now the booking is not going ahead???

Yes you would....

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Yes you would....

Yup.

As you've already said - you changed the booking date without charging another fee ergo you've essentially refused a booking fee for that one - you can't retroactively charge for that as the new contracts have been entered into and thus the final balance is seperate.

You COULD take whatever you want from them but in the age of Facebook, Twitter and indeed forums like these - do you want SC to be known to engage in questionable business practices?

You do them a turn (let's be fair a lot of clients would demand everything back, they're being quite fair even suggesting you take an admin fee.) and you could get business from them or their guests down the line since you'll have helped them out.

If you rip them off (which let's be honest, that's what you would be doing if you kept their money or took an inordinate amount for sending out some contracts for gigs way down the line - remeber you'd have no chance of claiming the full amount for a gig in 2015 that got cancelled just now) it'll only come back to bite you some way or other.

Chalk it up to experience, take the cash + paypal fees + a sensible admin fee and make sure you don't make the same mistake next time.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

OK I now see that the 2nd deposit was only if they changed the date again.

They now have it in writing that you only charged a single deposit so any attempt to add further deposits on now would really open you up to them hammering you.

£100 + admin fee for drawing up a few contracts and sending some e-mails isn't a bad shift however you cut it.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Funny you should comment on this, Angela, today of all days!

I've been wondering why people on here use the phrase "non-refundable booking fee" instead of simply "deposit" for some time as the reasoning didn't quite make sense to me. The comments, like Toby had said, that it's because a deposit is returnable but a NRBF is not seem to have been the norm. But, today, I've been reading an article on such matters by a Consumer Rights Writer and Legal Advisor in such matters. Basically, a "deposit" is generally non-refundable for the following reason. When a consumer (anyone who buys goods or services - can be a personal transaction or a business one) pays a deposit to a vendor (a seller/provider of goods and/or services) they are entering in to an agreement to buy the full service or product from the vendor. Therefore, a contract is formed. If the consumer decides to not go through with that agreement to buy the full product/service then the vendor is entitled to retain the deposit, as compensation, due to the consumer breaking the terms of the contract (ie - to pay for the full service or product). The vendor may even be able to claim more than the deposit if the cancellation is at short notice meaning that they would be unlikely to resell the product or service in the same timescale or if they have incurred costs in maintaining their side of the agreement before the agreement was cancelled (this doesn't have to be cancelled at short notice). This gives them a "justifiable claim for loss of profit".

So, given this information, there is no reason at all why we shouldn't use the term "deposit" in our agreements. As such, I will be changing the wording in my T&Cs as people have often asked "What's a non-returnable booking fee?" as it's not a term they are familiar with (even though it's pretty self-explanatory!). I think going back to using the phrase "deposit" and including a paragraph that "deposits are non-returnable" is the way forward for me to avoid this confusion.

Just thought I'd point this out! :)

What Angela is saying is that a 'deposit' can be called anything - it depends how it is defined in your T&Cs. It could be called a pink elephant''s armpit as long as it is defined properly.

[funkymook]

It could be called a pink elephant''s armpit as long as it is defined properly.

There's no way I'd give let them have that back....

[Corabar Entertainment]

Funny you should comment on this, Angela, today of all days!

I've been wondering why people on here use the phrase "non-refundable booking fee" instead of simply "deposit" for some time as the reasoning didn't quite make sense to me. The comments, like Toby had said, that it's because a deposit is returnable but a NRBF is not seem to have been the norm. But, today, I've been reading an article on such matters by a Consumer Rights Writer and Legal Advisor in such matters. Basically, a "deposit" is generally non-refundable for the following reason. When a consumer (anyone who buys goods or services - can be a personal transaction or a business one) pays a deposit to a vendor (a seller/provider of goods and/or services) they are entering in to an agreement to buy the full service or product from the vendor. Therefore, a contract is formed. If the consumer decides to not go through with that agreement to buy the full product/service then the vendor is entitled to retain the deposit, as compensation, due to the consumer breaking the terms of the contract (ie - to pay for the full service or product). The vendor may even be able to claim more than the deposit if the cancellation is at short notice meaning that they would be unlikely to resell the product or service in the same timescale or if they have incurred costs in maintaining their side of the agreement before the agreement was cancelled (this doesn't have to be cancelled at short notice). This gives them a "justifiable claim for loss of profit".

So, given this information, there is no reason at all why we shouldn't use the term "deposit" in our agreements. As such, I will be changing the wording in my T&Cs as people have often asked "What's a non-returnable booking fee?" as it's not a term they are familiar with (even though it's pretty self-explanatory!). I think going back to using the phrase "deposit" and including a paragraph that "deposits are non-returnable" is the way forward for me to avoid this confusion.

Just thought I'd point this out! :)
:thumbsup:

As I have repeatedly and frequently stated on here, you can call it a 'Blue Monkey' if you like: it's how your T&Cs define it that matters.

[yourdj]

I am going to call it an Angela from now on then. :p

"Hello Mr client, let me know when you are ready to book and I
will send you my bank details so you can pay the non refundable Angela"

Also

Your Steve is due one month before the wedding date.

[DazzyD]

The impression I got from the article seemed to suggest, to me anyway, that "deposit" is defined in consumer law and, if this is the case, should not require further definition in the T&Cs. I've tried to confirm this today but have been unable to. As I found this paragraph on a consumer legal advice website:


Getting a deposit refunded

The general rule is that a deposit is not refundable. But there are three exceptions to this rule:

if the trader fails to meet their side of the contract - eg, they cannot supply the goods you ordered
if you and the trader agreed that a term of the contract will be that the deposit is refundable (in full or in part).
if you cancel goods you have on layby. The Layby Sales Act sets out specific rules for cancelling a layby.

I've come to the conclusion that, from point 2, further definition is probable required in T&Cs!! (can you tell I've had a quiet day today???)

[Corabar Entertainment]

As you know, Dazzy, the law usually uses 'general rules' to imply things when the evidence is unclear, but it is always preferable if things don't get to that stage. Things like this often aren't actually defined by statute, but have built up over years of case law and usually use the 'reasonableness' test (ie what a reasonable person would understand it to be, etc). Therefore, a clause in your contract defining what you mean by 'deposit' (or any other key term) is the better option (although without getting too technical, there are some things that you couldn't personally define as they are enshrined in law).

[ppentertainments]

I receive quite a few postponements for charity bookings. What I state is that the booking, together with NRBF, can be transferred to a rearranged date BUT the full payment must be made by the date originally on the booking form (ie the date it was due when the booking was made). I also only allow one rearranged date.

The other option they have is to cancel and rebook at a later date, but they would then forfeit the NRBF. I did have this looked over by a solicitor (very briefly, he's a friend of mine) and they could see no problem with it although never went in depth. However, in the past 3 years I've never came across any problem with this arrangement.