Congestion Charge PCN - SCAM!

[ukpartydj]

Last weekend I was travelling to Central London (non-work related) having only ever been to Central London a handful of times and always at night I was well aware this would be my first journey which would incur the Congestion Charge.
A quick look at the Congestion Charging website and I see I can easily pay the congestion charge online - no problems.

I go into london see the sign saying "this is congestion charging area" all good and I think to myself - They've got cameras to detect number plates they must send you the bill or something as they obviously have access to your address through the DVLA.

Think nothing of it (waiting for an invoice to come through) and 5 days later I get a Penalty Charge Notice for failure to Pay the Congestion Charge!!!??

They haven't told me how to pay (no signs), haven't said I cannot enter the area without paying and haven't given me an opportunity to pay the £10 charge.

How on earth can they get away with charging £130 (£65 if paid early) when there is absolutely no information on the homepage of their website or on the signage entering the CC area suggesting how or when it should be done???

Apparently you're supposed to pay in advance or at the very latest the next day (which costs £2 more) - how on earth am I supposed to know that???

FUMING!!

I've appealed but apparently "not knowing how or when to pay" is not a valid reason. Absolute idiots - watch out for these money grabbing thieves if you ever need to drive into london.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I dont see how you have had an issue. Ive just been on their website (after never using it before) and managed to find my way to the bit where I can "pay for today", "pay for yesterday", "pay for tomorrow" or "pay for another date or range of dates".

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No excuse. You should have Googled the information - there's plenty of it out there....

1st organic listing http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/

It tells you the charging zone and let's you check, the times, when you have to pay and how.

[Ryu]

Yeah I think that's what they call an epic fail on your part. Retrospective charging makes no sense... There is endless info on this and the info is always the same... You pay it up front. Can't rub it in too much, I made a similar oversight with parking in London at Christmas... It's an expensive lesson to learn... But I'll bet you don't do it again.

[BeerFunk]

That does seem a little unfair, but then, I'm not sure how else they could have warned you. I might have been caught out myself by that, I must admit. Still, all the info is clearly accessible in the site, so....

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I don't think it's a scam either really...

[ukpartydj]

You don't see it as a Scam? Are you just supposed to know about these things then - because the information isn't on the signs, or on the Congestion Charging Homepage?

I googled congestion charge prior to my journey and I saw the homepage which says "Pay the Congestion Charge" - no warning saying it needs to be paid in advance or within one day.
When you click "Charging Zone - Find out if and when you may need to pay" the only information you find is - "You have to pay an £10 daily Congestion Charge if you drive between 07:00 and 18:00, Monday to Friday in the Congestion Charge zone."

Again it doesn't say you should pay before your journey or within one day.

if you see the signs going into the area they offer very little information on how the charging works -

16125

I'm not from London, I hate the overcrowded city - I was aware of the charge and was not trying to avoid it.
Giving people one day to pay up with no reminder and no indication that it should be paid within one day is appalling.

£1 million is generated from these fines every week, so it's quite obvious that they are trying to make it easy for people to "fail to pay".
Since receiving the fine I've checked the website again and noticed that a subsection of the site says "when to pay" on clicking it will tell you it needs to be in advance, or within one day - this isn't clear enough.

I shouldn't need to learn all about the congestion charge by researching it online, it should be as simple - on signage and they should be sending letters saying - "Sir, we've noticed you haven't paid you're congestion charge yet, please pay within 14 days" before even suggesting that I've failed to pay.

I personally don't think this sort of fine is legal, I get parking tickets often enough and I know I've done wrong.
This however is 100% not my fault!
This isn't ignorance it's Transport for London creating a SCAM!!

[ukpartydj]

Furthermore when you park your car in a parking space the signs say "Pay at the Machine, Display ticket".
On the Machine it sets out the prices and terms of parking.

Why can't The congestion Charge sign say "Pay Online by end of day"

[Shaun]

I agree, it's not clear at all. I'd have been caught out too. It took me a while looking through the site to even find a mention of how much the congestion charge was,never mind how long I'd have to pay it. There really should be indication of when it needs to be paid. Is it to much to ask that the fee and fee due date is stated on the sign? I'd argue bat they have a legal obligation to inform people at the point of access to the zone what the charges are and when they're due.

[Ryu]

Search Google for "Congestion Charge" - First Link TFL.gov page - On front page "When to Pay"....

Hardly a riddle wrapped in an enigma....

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

This thread is complete nonsense. There is plenty of information out there and loads of answers in the FAQ of the government website. It's not a scam as you know you have to pay, there's nothing secret about it.

[yourdj]

Its not a scam and it is your fault UK party DJ but, i think councils are taking the mickey if you ask me.

Apparently some uK councils have the highest land rental prices in the world as thats what your technically doing. southampton is ridiculous. Its about a quid for 20 mins or more than that! Now they want to charge during the night too. It's obviously a very profitable business and they have got greedy. Capita have taken over lots of councils so that may be why (private business). I dont mind paying but not that much.

its such a breath of fresh air to go to a foreign country or different area of the UK and not have to pay so much money and feel like your own government is ripping you off.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10551506.Controversial_parking_charges_approved/

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

This however is 100% not my fault!


If you knew about the charge, then yes it is. Sorry.


Its not a scam and it is your fault UK party DJ but, i think councils are taking the mickey if you ask me.

Apparently some uK councils have the highest land rental prices in the world as thats what your technically doing. southampton is ridiculous. Its about a quid for 20 mins or more than that! Now they want to charge during the night too. It's obviously a very profitable business and they have got greedy. Capita have taken over lots of councils so that may be why (private business).

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10551506.Controversial_parking_charges_approved/

Greedy if you wask me and taking advantage of the fact that more people have cars nowadays.

I dont mind paying but not that much.

We're talking about the congestion charge not parking fees Toby....:rolleyes:

[yourdj]

If you knew about the charge, then yes it is. Sorry.



We're talking about the congestion charge not parking fees Toby....:rolleyes:

i know but its still linked. Same initiative.

[Shaun]

There is plenty of information out there and loads of answers in the FAQ of the government website. It's not a scam as you know you have to pay, there's nothing secret about it.

Surely it makes more sense to state the charges on the signs, and when payment is due. Having never driven in London I'd have quite easily made the same mistake. I'd know I have to pay a charge but would most likely look up the information on paying when I returned home, only to find I'd be charged an extortionate fee. I'd argue that they are obligated to make people aware of the cost, and when the cost is due, at the point of entry to the congestion zones (and not just via the web).

[funkymook]

Surely it makes more sense to state the charges on the signs, and when payment is due. Having never driven in London I'd have quite easily made the same mistake. I'd know I have to pay a charge but would most likely look up the information on paying when I returned home, only to find I'd be charges an extortionate fee. I'd argue that they are obligated to make people aware of the cost, and when the cost is due, at the point of entry to the congestion zones (and not just via the web).

Couple of things wrong with that - the expense of changing all the signs (and at the same time) when there's any price increase/decrease and the danger of accidents as people slow down to read how much they need to pay and when.

[Shaun]

Couple of things wrong with that - the expense of changing all the signs (and at the same time) when there's any price increase/decrease and the danger of accidents as people slow down to read how much they need to pay and when.

Then perhaps a simple statement. "Payment due within 24 hours" could have been added at the time of manufacturing the signs. My biggest issue wouldn't be the cost of the basic charge, more so that there isn't enough clarity at the point of access stating how long you have to pay it. I wouldn't go a far as to say it's a scam, but more can be done to make the motorist aware in my opinion.

[yourdj]

Then perhaps a simple statement. "Payment due within 24 hours" could have been added at the time of manufacturing the signs. I wouldn't go a far as to say it's a scam.

:agree: they know they will get at least 5 years worth of fees before people wise up. i am driving into London monday and did not know this. I am not sure why it should be left to individual citizens due diligence to know this? As Shaun says 24 hours notice is fine - i am sure there are some legal implications that will come out the woodwork regarding this as there are obviously no indications that you will be charged, so I would assume the same.

Its a bit like a clamping company. They will post guards on a hot spot 24hours a day (at great expense to them) rather than the old fashioned patrol as they know that at least one person an hour will park unwittingly knowing there is a car watching them ready to pounce. At fees of £2-300 (an average weekly wage!!) thats an extortionate amount to charge for whats technically tresspass on an otherwise dead space of land. Fair enough if you impeded important access or park in a bus lane, but its more often enough not the case. They use the law to thier advantage and rip people off as there are no ethics involved, just greedy men hell bent on making lots of money while the law lets them.

I am all up for getting transport out of london and other major cities, but there are other ways to do it. reducing public transport fees and well managed park and ride is a good start.

Lets start on traffic cameras now ;)
They have cause more accidents than prevented them apparently.

[ukpartydj]

This thread is complete nonsense. There is plenty of information out there and loads of answers in the FAQ of the government website. It's not a scam as you know you have to pay, there's nothing secret about it.

The scam isn't in that I have to pay - I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a congestion charge (maybe not at the current price) but at the fact they've sent me a Penalty Charge Notice for failing to pay when at no point did I intend not to pay, that is the scam and they have no proof that I did not intend to pay and there are no terms or conditions visible or suggested in the Congestion Charging area how am I to know that they exist? Was I supposed to investigate to see if the Council have passed a stupidly unfair fining system and provided minimal information, unfortunately I trusted Councils and government not to be so stupid.

If I put a sign on my driveway "Dave's Charging Area - ALL DAY" and then made a website which says you need to pay £10 to go on my drive and if you don't pay by the next day I'll make it £65 would you feel that is fair? You'd be aware you needed to pay but would have no idea - How to pay, how much to pay or when to pay.



Couple of things wrong with that - the expense of changing all the signs (and at the same time) when there's any price increase/decrease and the danger of accidents as people slow down to read how much they need to pay and when.

Sorry but this is just silly, the expense will be minimal compared to the £52 million they make in unfair fines a year.
I think you may be forgetting we're talking about London ... the traffic moves "no faster than chickens" according to a local London newspaper.

[Corabar Entertainment]

If you think the Congestion Charge is difficult and you got caught out by that, god help you with the Low Emission Zone! ...and that's £100 a day BEFORE penalties / fines!

[Shaun]

If you think the Congestion Charge is difficult and you got caught out by that, god help you with the Low Emission Zone! ...and that's £100 a day BEFORE penalties / fines!

My goodness. How many more are there? I've never heard of a low emission zone.

[ukpartydj]

If you think the Congestion Charge is difficult and you got caught out by that, god help you with the Low Emission Zone! ...and that's £100 a day BEFORE penalties / fines!

Funny you mention that - I drove into the area with my old van a couple of years ago I got a letter stating my van would need to pay the £100 per day thing (constantly rising if you leave it more more than a few days) if I drove into the area again ... so I got a warning which was good as I had no idea the scheme operated at all!
This was partly the reason I bought a new van as I didn't want to be avoiding london completely - although my opinion recently has changed.

[Corabar Entertainment]

My goodness. How many more are there? I've never heard of a low emission zone.No, a lot of people haven't, but there are signs more all around the edge of Greater London (ie More or less as soon as you come inside the M25) telling you you're entering one.

It won't affect the vast majority of people. It started for lorries, but has been slowly bringing in more and more vehicles (ie bringing in smaller vehicles). It's the reason Steve had to sell his perfectly good van (for peanuts), as older vehicles are considered polluters, and he would have had to pay £100 a day if he kept it.

So, basically, if you're in an older van (or even a 4x4 possibly) you need to check that you won't get stung.

[Shaun]

It's the reason Steve had to sell his perfectly good van ... he would have had to pay £100 a day if he kept it.



:eek::daft:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

So, anyone on here heard of road tax or insurance...

There's no signs for that either.

Looks like you might have to do a bit of research....

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The scam isn't in that I have to pay - I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a congestion charge (maybe not at the current price) but at the fact they've sent me a Penalty Charge Notice for failing to pay when at no point did I intend not to pay

Hardly a defence is it?

When you buy petrol or go to a restaurant, do you pay a few days later or do you pay there and then?

Do you leave a restaurant announcing to the world that you thought you could pay a few days later as you thought they'd send you a bill?

[theoloyla]

Must admit the congestion charge works well. Since it came into force I have chosen not to do any work or spend any money in London except at weekends and overnight.
Theo

[DazzyD]

Must admit the congestion charge works well. Since it came into force I have chosen not to do any work or spend any money in London except at weekends and overnight.
Theo

:like:

[ukpartydj]

So, anyone on here heard of road tax or insurance...

There's no signs for that either.

Looks like you might have to do a bit of research....

You really can be a plonker sometimes.
Both of these are things you are required to know to pass a driving theory test and aren't regional - everybody who drives is required to know this.
All you are required to know regarding the congestion charge is that the sign with the C on it means congestion charging area.


Hardly a defence is it?

When you buy petrol or go to a restaurant, do you pay a few days later or do you pay there and then?

Do you leave a restaurant announcing to the world that you thought you could pay a few days later as you thought they'd send you a bill?

Both petrol stations and restaurant's have staff / payment stations.
A price is given for both on entering or placing an order.
There is somebody present to ask questions to.

Find a business which has

-no physical payment stations
-no displayed price
-no information on how to pay
-no staff to ask
-doesn't try and legally prosecute you for failure to pay, instead simply fines you x6 (or x12) the original charge.

my bet is that it simply doesn't exist, if anybody has one then I may very well change my mind but I cannot see that happening - this is one of a kind, I'd imagine the vast majority of motorists in the UK are unaware of the way in which the congestion charge works which

Enforcing a severely inflated fine giving and giving a very short period to pay it in is quite simply a money making scam - they will be fully aware that they are fining law abiding citizens who had no intention of breaking the rules hence it is a -

Scam: A dishonest scheme.

The idea of the Congestion Charge is to "reduce traffic in central London" so why are they making these fines once I've left the area rather than just reminding me to pay?
The fine doesn't stop me going into London it just takes money from my pocket to re-invest into other transport improvements.

It's obviously, simply, a way to make money hence therefore the scheme is dishonest and a Scam.
Same as the speed cameras, why aren't they on the most dangerous roads? because they are money making cameras not "safety" cameras - that doesn't mean you should be able to speed, it's just the cameras do bugger all to help - Scam.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

You really can be a plonker sometimes.


Really?

I am going to be a plonker now and put you in the sin bin for name calling.

If you have a point, then make it, but don't starrt calling me names.

[ukpartydj]

Really?

I am going to be a plonker now and put you in the sin bin for name calling.

If you have a point, then make it, but don't starrt calling me names.

You obviously don't remember calling me a "Keyboard Warrior" and "childish".
Not to mention you've said this issue is "nonsense".
To which I don't remember returning the name calling favour, maybe I gave in a decided it was time.

Anyway, I feel quite passionately about this issue so will be starting a government ePetition soon - anybody who feels I have a point I will invite to join me in attempting to make changes for the better.

[Cowlinn]

Really?

I am going to be a plonker now and put you in the sin bin for name calling.

If you have a point, then make it, but don't starrt calling me names.

Egh, hardly "Name calling" is it? I'll probably be "Sin Binned" for getting involved, but you've just put an end to a genuinely good debate, where both sides had valid points (and one that was really interesting for me to read as a reader of this forum)

Why not make your points without using your administrative powers against him? I read that as you having no answer to his points (which I'm not saying are all correct) and this was your last resort.

I could understand if you could in any way be offended by being called a plonker, but I really can't believe that you were. For the record, I also would sin bin people for name calling, but that wasn't name calling.


I'm sure I'll be sin binned now and won't have a chance to reply to your comment back to me so please don't edit my post - either delete it or leave it in it's entirety.



If you have a point, then make it, but don't starrt calling me names.

Hopefully this light hearted comment about you being a pirate will keep me out of the sin bin ;)

[yourdj]

I'll probably be "Sin Binned" for getting involved,

There is notification in the Forum rules for that one :lol:

This is also a mildly political debate which is also another one. :p

[ukpartydj]

How long does this Sin Bin thing last then?

[DazzyD]

There is notification in the Forum rules for that one :lol:

This is also a mildly political debate which is also another one. :p

You're right, Toby, but my understanding of the rules regarding discussion of political issues is that they are not permitted on the forum unless they are something which directly affects our Forum membership and working DJs. As this issue is affecting our members that have to endeavour in to the "zone" to ply their trade, then it is fair discussion for us.

I've kept out of this debate until now mainly because, being a North Eastern DJ, the congestion charge is not likely to affect me. However, I'm with Shaun on this one as I know nothing about it and it would appear to unfairly penalise drivers (of which I'm not!!) who genuinely are not aware of it. The comments about researching it before you set off are all fine and dandy - if you have a fair understanding of the system already. They say ignorance is no excuse of the law but this issue really does make me wonder if it really is that heavily weighted against the "blissfully unaware" driver who has no experience of the system. For example, I don't research the by-laws of every town and village I visit to make sure I don't break any of their ancient rules. For example, where I come from, it's illegal to start a farmers/street market within "the distance you could walk a donkey in a day" of another already established market. Strange but very true by-law!

Going back to the title of "...SCAM!", when I first read this I thought it was about a genuine scam that was doing the rounds a few months ago. I got an email with an attachment saying my car (ir a car registered to me, I think) had been recorded in the congestion zone and handed paid the charge. It went on to say the proof was in the form of a camera photo, attached, which will prove I was driving the car at the time. And I had to link a link to pay immediately or face a fine. Really? First, I haven't got a car registered to me and, second, I don't drive!!! Kind of gave the game away, that!!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Egh, hardly "Name calling" is it? I'll probably be "Sin Binned" for getting involved, but you've just put an end to a genuinely good debate, where both sides had valid points (and one that was really interesting for me to read as a reader of this forum)

Why not make your points without using your administrative powers against him? I read that as you having no answer to his points (which I'm not saying are all correct) and this was your last resort.

I could understand if you could in any way be offended by being called a plonker, but I really can't believe that you were. For the record, I also would sin bin people for name calling, but that wasn't name calling.


I'm sure I'll be sin binned now and won't have a chance to reply to your comment back to me so please don't edit my post - either delete it or leave it in it's entirety.




Hopefully this light hearted comment about you being a pirate will keep me out of the sin bin ;)

This has nothing to do with you so I suggest you leave the running of the forum to those who do. You haven't made a comment in months but just come back to comment on this?

I have plenty of answers and points, but do not take kindly to being called names.

Now if you have something to add to the debate, feel free. If you don't, then please don't post or I will delete any more off topic posts.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The comments about researching it before you set off are all fine and dandy - if you have a fair understanding of the system already.

Sorry, but that just simply isn't true. I didn't know anything about it at all, but had 'heard' of it, so Googled and researched and found out what I needed to know. When I started working in the Waldorf, I found out exactly what was what. Maybe you guys further away don't know anything about it as you are highly unlikely to drive into London, therefore it won't affect you, so you had no interest?

[Corabar Entertainment]

Admittedly, living closer, we've had to find out about the congestion charging, but it's not like we had any more information than anyone else when it came in to force or since: the first time we needed to go in to Central London, we, too, had to go and research and find out where, what, how and when to pay. Assuming anything is dangerous! Can you imagine the overheads if they had to send letters to every single vehicle owner that entered London every day???!!!!!! Logic dictates that is not feasible.

[Corabar Steve]

The idea of the Congestion Charge is to "reduce traffic in central London" so why are they making these fines once I've left the area rather than just reminding me to pay?
The fine doesn't stop me going into LondonMaybe not, but you'll think twice about going in again without paying


No, a lot of people haven't, but there are signs more all around the edge of Greater London (ie More or less as soon as you come inside the M25) telling you you're entering one.

It won't affect the vast majority of people. It started for lorries, but has been slowly bringing in more and more vehicles (ie bringing in smaller vehicles). It's the reason Steve had to sell his perfectly good van (for peanuts), as older vehicles are considered polluters, and he would have had to pay £100 a day if he kept it.

So, basically, if you're in an older van (or even a 4x4 possibly) you need to check that you won't get stung.You missed a crucial word out there. Diesel. Petrol engines are as yet unaffected.

[super-hero]

My neighbour just got a £250 fine for going in the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). He had just been to a local diy store, which is just a couple of miles up the road. He only drives a small Escort van, and was unaware of the zone, as up until recently he drove a car.

I had a problem with the congestion charge a few years ago. I sold my car to a car dealer, who then sold it on. The new buyer didn't register it to themselves. And I was sent all their congestion charge fines, because the DVLA had me down as the last registered keeper. I was getting 5 fines a week, and threats of court action.
It took ages for me to get transport for London to actually phone the DVLA and speak person to person with them to verify that I had sold the car, but the new keeper had not registered it. Up to that point it had just been their computers talking to each other.
I had to do all the work, to prove I was not the one driving into London. No help at all from Transport for London.


My current van, a long wheelbase, hi-top Transit is not allowed into the LEZ after this December. But I love my van and won't be getting rid of it. Like said earlier, living near the zone has affected prices of second hand vans that can't go in.


I think the original poster, is feeling all the things the rest of us felt when the zone first came into force.

[DazzyD]

Sorry, but that just simply isn't true. I didn't know anything about it at all, but had 'heard' of it, so Googled and researched and found out what I needed to know. When I started working in the Waldorf, I found out exactly what was what. Maybe you guys further away don't know anything about it as you are highly unlikely to drive into London, therefore it won't affect you, so you had no interest?

And that's pretty much spot on. We don't have anything like that around here - our roads are still free to use (well, after the normal UK-wide taxes have been paid!). The exception being the use of the Tyne Tunnel but you can't leave the area without paying due to the pay booth barriers so it's a completely different situation. I've only ever visited London by train a few times so your road system and by-laws remain a complete mystery to me.

And, to be fair, I'm highly unlikely to be driving anywhere personally!!! :)

[djdj]

I live in the north east but have heard about this.
a quick google says payment direct on TFL website, online, by sms, or at other nominated high street shops and garages.
It also states
You can pay in advance or on the day of travel. If you don't pay by midnight on the charging day after you drove in the zone, you'll get a Penalty Charge Notice.
However I do agree the fine is excessive.
London may be the first city to implement the charge, but I don't think it will be the last.
People need to travel and it is an easy way to make extra money.

[djdj]

I live in the north east but have heard about this.
a quick google says payment direct on TFL website, online, by sms, or at other nominated high street shops and garages.
It also states
You can pay in advance or on the day of travel. If you don't pay by midnight on the charging day after you drove in the zone, you'll get a Penalty Charge Notice.
However I do agree the fine is excessive.
London may be the first city to implement the charge, but I don't think it will be the last.
People need to travel and it is an easy way to make extra money.

Durham Road User Charge Zone :eek:
http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=6370

[DazzyD]

Durham Road User Charge Zone :eek:
http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=6370

:eek:

Wow! They've really advertised that one round here, haven't they??? NOT!!!

I've done a few gigs at Durham Castle and I know there was a payment point and rising bollard system but to have to then travel to Framwellgate Moor to pay the new charge? That's adding even extra expense in fuel costs and time. {thought better of posting this next comment due to political policy of the Forum!!!} :zip:

I was beginning to think of having to reassess my fees when working in Durham but have noticed that the zone only operates until 4pm so it's not really an issue - yet!!!

[ukpartydj]

Can you imagine the overheads if they had to send letters to every single vehicle owner that entered London every day???!!!!!! Logic dictates that is not feasible.

I will repeat - they make £1million from fining people who "fail to pay".
Also they send you a letter if you fail to pay so either way ... a letter gets sent out unless you remember to pay.

5 times more people will appeal against the congestion charge PCN when compared to the Parking PCN's ... says something in itself.

Anybody who thinks the below ideas will help motorists have a fair chance please sign this petition and pass it along.

1) If a motorist has not paid their Congestion Charge - Send them a reminder with payment details.

2) Update the lacking signage to include the payment terms (by the next day) to ensure motorists have fair warning to pay before receiving fines.

3) Make it clear on the HOME page of the congestion charging website that payment must be made beforehand or by the following day.

4) Allow a fair amount of time to pay the congestion charge, after receiving a reminder / invoice.



http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/55230

[Parkboy]

My mother nearly got caught out by the congestion charge, she was visiting relatives and the Sat nav took her through the city centre, she has no interest in computers whatsoever and wouldn't know how to "google", it was only when she mentioned it to her cousin that she knew when she had to pay it. So how are the older, less informed and non PC owning folk supposed to know?

[Corabar Steve]

My mother nearly got caught out by the congestion charge, she was visiting relatives and the Sat nav took her through the city centre, she has no interest in computers whatsoever and wouldn't know how to "google", it was only when she mentioned it to her cousin that she knew when she had to pay it. So how are the older, less informed and non PC owning folk supposed to know?

Presumably they watched the national news when it was introduced?

[ukpartydj]

So how are the older, less informed and non PC owning folk supposed to know?

Ah you see this is my point exactly - you're not supposed to know until they get a fine ... then they get a £65 compulsory education on how it works.


Presumably they watched the national news when it was introduced?

National News isn't enough. I personally do not watch the news ever or read newspapers. News comes to me - word of mouth.
Besides if it was national news that if you leave £20 on a counter and invite a stranger over they might steal it doesn't make does that make it legal?



Also to mention I haven't received a reply from an appeal I sent or a complaint I sent despite it being over 7 days since it has been sent - constantly overwhelmed with complaints maybe?
Or they cannot afford to employ somebody to reply to complaints seem as they only make £1.6 billion a year.

Odd really as they expect me to pay up within 14 days to get my discount.

[Ryu]

Ah you see this is my point exactly - you're not supposed to know until they get a fine ... then they get a £65 compulsory education on how it works.



National News isn't enough. I personally do not watch the news ever or read newspapers. News comes to me - word of mouth.
Besides if it was national news that if you leave £20 on a counter and invite a stranger over they might steal it doesn't make does that make it legal?



Also to mention I haven't received a reply from an appeal I sent or a complaint I sent despite it being over 7 days since it has been sent - constantly overwhelmed with complaints maybe?
Or they cannot afford to employ somebody to reply to complaints seem as they only make £1.6 billion a year.

Odd really as they expect me to pay up within 14 days to get my discount.

Yeah good luck with that.

If only there was some way out there other than the national news... Or the Internet... To spread the word. Perhaps some kind of giant megaphone?

[wensleydale]

I dont believe this is still going on.
The CC is clearly signposted. You should have checked when you saw the signs if unsure.

End of....

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I dont believe this is still going on.
The CC is clearly signposted. You should have checked when you saw the signs if unsure.

End of....

:thumbsup:

[Corabar Steve]

My mother nearly got caught out by the congestion charge, she was visiting relatives and the Sat nav took her through the city centre, she has no interest in computers whatsoever and wouldn't know how to "google", it was only when she mentioned it to her cousin that she knew when she had to pay it. So how are the older, less informed and non PC owning folk supposed to know?

2 things strike me about this now I've thought about it.

No interest in computers? How does she update her SatNav?

The other thing is, every SatNav I've ever encountered pings up an alert about the CC zone when you plan the route & asks if you want to avoid it

[DJ Jules]

How does she update her SatNav?

Give a Garmin - then you'll never get a working map update anyway :D

Julian

[ukpartydj]

If you use google navigation you'll get a notice "this route has tolls".
My previous experience with tolls is you get near the toll bridge or road and it has a price list and payment booth, the congestion charge is very unique in fact there are only 4 of these congestion charges in the world and only 2 of them operate in the way London does.

Here is a few facts which do go off topic a little (I apologise in advance) however I found them interesting -

1998 Singapore - A pre-pay unit must be installed into your car and topped up with credit.
2003 London - Must pay in advance or by the next day.
2007 Stockholm - A bill is sent to the vehicle owner at the end of each month.
2008 Milan - Identical to London expect ... they have signs which explain how the scheme works (details below)

translated roughly to -
Restricted area
No entry: 7:30 to 21:00 unless authorised.
Paid access available during operation Mon to Fri 7:30 to 19:30 If authorised electronically.
The price, website and telephone number can be found along with prohibited vehicles and vehicles such as bicycles which are exempt.

Like the sado I am, I've researched all 4 of the schemes, London is the most expensive £10 compared to Stockholms 95p - £1.80 per "visit" depending on what time you enter and they allow you 7 days to pay up before a £6 fine is added. Oddly enough the Stockholm system is by far the most effective reducing traffic by 25% instead of Londons 15%.

London is the only system which doesn't display prices on their signs.

I find it odd how quite a few of you don't share my point, the congestion charge was introduced 10 years ago means that anybody who was not driving 10 years ago (I've been driving for 6 years) would not have been interested in any national news which stated all payments must be made by the following day at the latest (if they ever did, which I doubt).

[Shaun]

Despite having heard of the congestion charge, I'll openly admit I knew nothing about it or how it works. The last I heard of it was briefly on the news when it was introduced, and can't recollect them mentioning anything about how it works or how it's policed. I'm honestly quite surprised that there is no information on the signs. If I were to visit London and saw the signs I'd most likely have made a mental note to pay it when I got home. Only to realise (too late) that I'd have been fined.


To those living in or close to London, you may think it's common knowledge of how it all works as you are living with the system, and experience it on a regular basis. For tourists, those that live quite a bit a way this system could prove to be a very costly exercise. More can be done to make it easier if you ask me, but then again, they are making good money out of people receiving fines. It's a money cow so I can't see them changing things.

[yourdj]

To those living in or close to London, you may think it's common knowledge of how it all works as you are living with the system, and experience it on a regular basis. For tourists, those that live quite a bit a way this system could prove to be a very costly exercise. More can be done to make it easier if you ask me, but then again, they are making good money out of people receiving fines. It's a money cow so I can't see them changing things.

:agree:

[wensleydale]

I still think that even if you didnt know about it you would see the signs and take action.
No different to other signs in the highway code.

[Shaun]

I still think that even if you didnt know about it you would see the signs and take action.
.

Of course you would take action. I don't think there's anyone here disputing the fact that there is a fee to pay. It's the lack of clarity and guidance at road level that seems to be questionable.

[Excalibur]

Of course you would take action. I don't think there's anyone here disputing the fact that there is a fee to pay. It's the lack of clarity and guidance at road level that seems to be questionable.

Exactamundo.

[yourdj]

This is quite interesting:

http://www.upfa.org.uk/penalty-part-of-congestion-charge-scheme-illegal-report.html

Someone else is making money on the back of it :lol:
basically pay the charge and then buy his report.

[SC Events]

Having driven into the centre of London Recently (I don't do it often as I hate the place), I was a little confused when I saw the signs for the Low Emission Zone... i'd never heard of it and as I was already in London, how was I supposed to Google it? - It would probably have been too late anyway, even if I had found somewhere to pull over.

I do think people living in London or very close to CAN be quite ignorant towards others living well away from London. We don't live there, so how would we know about all the ridiculous rules and regulations our illustrious Capital City keep introducing?

On the side-road I had to park the van on, there was a sign saying "Please pay for the parking in the opposite building" - of which there were about 10, then underneath that, there was another sign saying "Parking Suspended" - That just maddens the unhelpful!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Parking suspended means that someone has paid to suspend the bay so that they can load and unload and no-one else can park there. It also means you can't park there either - it's just for loading and unloading!!!

[ukpartydj]

This is quite interesting:

http://www.upfa.org.uk/penalty-part-of-congestion-charge-scheme-illegal-report.html

Someone else is making money on the back of it :lol:
basically pay the charge and then buy his report.

I saw this also.
"30 legal grounds as to why I claim the penalty part of the Congestion Charge Scheme is illegal."

Surely there is one ground somewhere in the books of law (or whatever they call it) which states it in plain text.

[Corabar Steve]

Isn't there some sort of rule within law that states ignorance is no defence?

[Corabar Entertainment]

I do think people living in London or very close to CAN be quite ignorant towards others living well away from London. We don't live there, so how would we know about all the ridiculous rules and regulations our illustrious Capital City keep introducing?...But that goes back to the point I made earlier, Scott. People living a long way away seem to think that we've had some special consideration / additional information / local advertising / flyers, etc.

The first we heard about the LEZ was driving past the signs that appeared 2 miles up the road!

The only difference between people living close and those further away is that we encountered it earlier than you and so googled it first.... that goes both for the existence of the LEZ and how to pay the CC.

[ukpartydj]

...But that goes back to the point I made earlier, Scott. People living a long way away seem to think that we've had some special consideration / additional information / local advertising / flyers, etc.

The first we heard about the LEZ was driving past the signs that appeared 2 miles up the road!

The only difference between people living close and those further away is that we encountered it earlier than you and so googled it first.... that goes both for the existence of the LEZ and how to pay the CC.

I will have to agree that geographical location shouldn't be a major issue and Londoners will lose out the most because of this.
However it's probably become something of a normal thing to know about it and to be fined and because it happens to people around you regularly it's accepted and you'll see the outsiders as a bit idiotic for not knowing.

Does anybody disagree with the following 3 statements -

1) A reminder in the form of a letter would cost very little per person and would help everybody ensure they pay the congestion charge.
2) More information on signage would help ensure visitors where made aware of the major T&Cs set out by TFL.
3) The fining system operates solely to increase revenue and does not help reduce traffic flow.

If the first 2 were in place I'd have never made this thread.

[funkymook]

Does anybody disagree with the following 3 statements -

1) A reminder in the form of a letter would cost very little per person and would help everybody ensure they pay the congestion charge.
2) More information on signage would help ensure visitors where made aware of the major T&Cs set out by TFL.
3) The fining system operates solely to increase revenue and does not help reduce traffic flow.

If the first 2 were in place I'd have never made this thread.

I disagree with all of them.

1) It'd would cost a fortune to send reminders and then chase them up with the inevitable 'I never received it' etc.

2) It'd be dangerous to have people slowing down to read T&C's whilst trying to drive, the current signs make people aware they've entered the Congestion area so they need to use a bit of initiative and find out how to pay (as they would have to do if all the T&C's were on there anyway - that wouldn't bypass finding a payment method).

3) It's there so people don't take the mickey and try to play the system to avoid payment, the longer they can leave the payment the more they'll dispute it - which takes us back to extra admin costs.

And if you had read the website properly we wouldn't be having this thread either.

I live just outside of London and I've only ever had to pay the Congestion Charge once, so I had as little knowledge about it as anyone else who was aware of it but had never needed to use it - I looked on the website and read the instructions, it really wasn't that difficult.

[DJIanScott]

I disagree with all of them.

1) It'd would cost a fortune to send reminders and then chase them up with the inevitable 'I never received it' etc.

2) It'd be dangerous to have people slowing down to read T&C's whilst trying to drive, the current signs make people aware they've entered the Congestion area so they need to use a bit of initiative and find out how to pay (as they would have to do if all the T&C's were on there anyway - that wouldn't bypass finding a payment method).

3) It's there so people don't take the mickey and try to play the system to avoid payment, the longer they can leave the payment the more they'll dispute it - which takes us back to extra admin costs.

And if you had read the website properly we wouldn't be having this thread either.

I live just outside of London and I've only ever had to pay the Congestion Charge once, so I had as little knowledge about it as anyone else who was aware of it but had never needed to use it - I looked on the website and read the instructions, it really wasn't that difficult.

Agreed. I live on top of London and still had to research payment/price details before going right into the city.
On a foray oop North, I also pre-enquired about the M6 toll (£11!) I avoided that like the plague.

Notwithstanding though, it is an almighty rip-off of the already-over-taxed motorist.

[funkymook]

Notwithstanding though, it is an almighty rip-off of the already-over-taxed motorist.

Nah - natural selection! :D

[SC Events]

On a foray oop North, I also pre-enquired about the M6 toll (£11!) I avoided that like the plague.

Notwithstanding though, it is an almighty rip-off of the already-over-taxed motorist.

Don't even get me started on that thing. One of the toll booths is about 5 miles from my house and even though I could make life easier and jump on it sometimes, I refuse to... I pay £200 per year in Road Tax, why should I have to pay again to use a road?

I do feel that anybody who gets on the M6 Toll at the booth down the road from me is a bit of a numpty though, as the A5 parallels it all the way to the M6 and it's free!

[Corabar Steve]

Does anybody disagree with the following 3 statements -

1) A reminder in the form of a letter would cost very little per person and would help everybody ensure they pay the congestion charge.
2) More information on signage would help ensure visitors where made aware of the major T&Cs set out by TFL.
3) The fining system operates solely to increase revenue and does not help reduce traffic flow.


Yes, me. You know damn well that the cost of implementing this wouldn't come from revenue raised from the CC scheme, but would result in motorists being hit for another cost.

You got caught out. Pay the fine, deal with it & stop bloody whinging!

As Angela said earlier:
No, a lot of people haven't, but there are signs more all around the edge of Greater London (ie More or less as soon as you come inside the M25) telling you you're entering one.

It won't affect the vast majority of people. It started for lorries, but has been slowly bringing in more and more vehicles (ie bringing in smaller vehicles). It's the reason Steve had to sell his perfectly good van (for peanuts), as older vehicles are considered polluters, and he would have had to pay £100 a day if he kept it.

So, basically, if you're in an older van (or even a 4x4 possibly) you need to check that you won't get stung.
Think yourself lucky that you weren't caught out by the LEZ, both the cost & the fine are bigger.

Also think yourself lucky that you don't live within the LEZ. The cost difference between what I got for selling a perfectly good but now effectively useless van & buying a newer compliant one far outweighs a piddley little fine for non payment of the CZ charge!!!

CC charging has been in place for a long while now & it's not going to go away regardless of how much you or anyone else bellyaches about it.

[ukpartydj]

I disagree with all of them.

1) It'd would cost a fortune to send reminders and then chase them up with the inevitable 'I never received it' etc.

2) It'd be dangerous to have people slowing down to read T&C's whilst trying to drive, the current signs make people aware they've entered the Congestion area so they need to use a bit of initiative and find out how to pay (as they would have to do if all the T&C's were on there anyway - that wouldn't bypass finding a payment method).

3) It's there so people don't take the mickey and try to play the system to avoid payment, the longer they can leave the payment the more they'll dispute it - which takes us back to extra admin costs.

And if you had read the website properly we wouldn't be having this thread either.

I live just outside of London and I've only ever had to pay the Congestion Charge once, so I had as little knowledge about it as anyone else who was aware of it but had never needed to use it - I looked on the website and read the instructions, it really wasn't that difficult.

1) they send you a Penalty Charge Notice by post so that "fortune" is being spent right now. Also if Stockholm Congestion can afford to send out bills on a potential 95p charge I think London can at £10.
2) As prevouisly mentioned, London traffic is slow during CC operating hours - and I don't know how long it'd take to read - Charge £10, pay within 24 hours online www.website.com
3) I do agree slightly people may try and take the mick, however I'm not sure you should penalise the good to get at the bad.


Yes, me. You know damn well that the cost of implementing this wouldn't come from revenue raised from the CC scheme, but would result in motorists being hit for another cost.

I don't see why not? It's of minimal cost and the CC goes directly into those types of costs.

I've got no idea how much people think it'll cost to put up signs, there are around 30 main road entry points say there is 3 signs leading up to each point that'd be 90 signs - Say I'm being overly generous to prove a point - 200 signs.
In 2011 the rough cost or erecting a road sign was suggested to be between £150 and £500 (depending on size).
I'm going with £500 to be generous.

So that's £100'000.

Franked mail by royal mail costs 33p per letter lets round it up to 40p including envelopes and printing and maybe somebody to take the letters to the postman (for this example I'm assuming they aren't sending out PCNs, which they are).

The absolute minimum amount of cars entering the zone would be 35'000 per day (probably more like 100'000).
so that'd mean £11.5k per day

so I conclude that in one day they would have made all the changes outlined and be left with - £238.5k
And the next day it's just the £11.5k to pay per day.

I'd imagine that 1/4 of those costs will go back into the government pocket anyway due to income tax and VAT.

[Corabar Steve]

I've got no idea how much people think it'll cost to put up signs, there are around 30 main road entry points say there is 3 signs leading up to each point that'd be 90 signs - Say I'm being overly generous to prove a point - 200 signs.

You also clearly have no idea about how many roads lead into the CCZ. Aside from the fact that if they only signed the main roads how would people entering from all the minor roads that also enter the CCZ know that they've entered???

You've obviously got a bee in your bonnet about being stung by your ignorance of the facts. I find it funny that the people who complain the most are those that visit the CCZ or LEZ once in a blue moon. While those of us who are effectively stuck with it on a daily basis, put up with it.

If you don't like it, don't come to central London by car / van & don't take the jobs there. Simple really.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Quite apart from your estimated figures being woefully inaccurate, there are another couple of points that are worth mentioning:-

It isn't the government who either implements the day-to-day operation of the scheme, or receives the money. Transport for London is in charge and IBM is contracted to run it (and it currently costs over £130M pa to run... without each and every vehicle being sent a bill). All the income generated goes back into the public transport scheme, so if you reduce the revenue, one of two things will happen - either fares will have to go up, or the government subsidy will have to increase (or a little of both). Up to 2007, the total 'profit' since the scheme began was £10M.

[funkymook]

1) they send you a Penalty Charge Notice by post so that "fortune" is being spent right now. Also if Stockholm Congestion can afford to send out bills on a potential 95p charge I think London can at £10.
2) As prevouisly mentioned, London traffic is slow during CC operating hours - and I don't know how long it'd take to read - Charge £10, pay within 24 hours online www.website.com
3) I do agree slightly people may try and take the mick, however I'm not sure you should penalise the good to get at the bad.



I don't see why not? It's of minimal cost and the CC goes directly into those types of costs.

I've got no idea how much people think it'll cost to put up signs, there are around 30 main road entry points say there is 3 signs leading up to each point that'd be 90 signs - Say I'm being overly generous to prove a point - 200 signs.
In 2011 the rough cost or erecting a road sign was suggested to be between £150 and £500 (depending on size).
I'm going with £500 to be generous.

So that's £100'000.

Franked mail by royal mail costs 33p per letter lets round it up to 40p including envelopes and printing and maybe somebody to take the letters to the postman (for this example I'm assuming they aren't sending out PCNs, which they are).

The absolute minimum amount of cars entering the zone would be 35'000 per day (probably more like 100'000).
so that'd mean £11.5k per day

so I conclude that in one day they would have made all the changes outlined and be left with - £238.5k
And the next day it's just the £11.5k to pay per day.

I'd imagine that 1/4 of those costs will go back into the government pocket anyway due to income tax and VAT.

By jingo I think you've cracked it!

Pop it in a letter to Boris and I'm sure he'll get it implement it straight away and probably offer you a job as well.

Joking aside - there's a lot more involved, have you ever sat in on committee meetings in a large organisation? Even the simplest proposals can have implications for other departments, working practices, budgets, the law, H&S etc. A working solution that satisfies all the criteria is usually arrived at by a long convoluted path that appears to ignore the obvious.

[ukpartydj]

Quite apart from your estimated figures being woefully inaccurate, there are another couple of points that are worth mentioning:-
Up to 2007, the total 'profit' since the scheme began was £10M.

The signage figure was given from a council website so I expect that to be quite accurate.
According to Wikipedia £89.1M was made 2006-2007 after costs.
According to BBC a few months ago £1.6billion has been made by the scheme.

Also According to BBC congestion only briefly became lower and apparently is now worse than it was in 2003.


By jingo I think you've cracked it!

Pop it in a letter to Boris and I'm sure he'll get it implement it straight away and probably offer you a job as well.

Joking aside - there's a lot more involved, have you ever sat in on committee meetings in a large organisation? Even the simplest proposals can have implications for other departments, working practices, budgets, the law, H&S etc. A working solution that satisfies all the criteria is usually arrived at by a long convoluted path that appears to ignore the obvious.

Of course I appreciate that, I'm sure somebody getting paid £100k a year needs to approve it over a weeks analysis with 5 other people getting paid similar amounts.
Take note that my figures were extremely generous however, almost 1/3 of what I believe is the correct figures on traffic figures (the first day had 60'000 cars in the morning, I've only accounted for 35'000 odd a day - and once they've sat down and agreed with everybody and made that initial expense the costs are minimal.

This isn't a huge proposal exactly, large businesses (non-government) would have made these decisions quite swiftly and cost effectively had it they received a similar number of complaints.

[Corabar Steve]

According to Wikipedia £89.1M was made 2006-2007 after costs.

You're absolutely right. Shame you either didn't read or chose to ignore the rest of that part of the article

As Angela correctly pointed out...
All the income generated goes back into the public transport scheme, so if you reduce the revenue, one of two things will happen - either fares will have to go up, or the government subsidy will have to increase (or a little of both). Up to 2007, the total 'profit' since the scheme began was £10M.

Must've been one hell of a jump in the volume of traffic to get to £1.6billion in the last 6 years! Can't say I've noticed that much of a change any time I've been in.

[funkymook]

Of course I appreciate that, I'm sure somebody getting paid £100k a year needs to approve it over a weeks analysis with 5 other people getting paid similar amounts.


It would be lovely if it was that simple...

Go on here and search under 'Congestion Charge' to get a flavour of what's constantly under discussion. There's a bit more to it than just putting forward an idea and expecting it to work.

http://london.gov.uk/mqt/public/fulltext-search-result.do


Next time you're in London let me know, one of my friends is on the London Assembly so I might be able to meet you and arrange a visit to City Hall if he's free, it's an interesting insight. And he'd be delighted to know you believe he's complicit in a scam - and has that high a salary! (it's actually about half of that, I have friends who get more in IT for doing not much at all!)

[ukpartydj]

You're absolutely right. Shame you either didn't read or chose to ignore the rest of that part of the article

As Angela correctly pointed out...

I did skim over that mainly because what Angela was referring to as 'profit' was simply the money they hadn't been re-invested.
As it's illegal to not re-invest the money so that £10m is simply money waiting to be spent, maybe on putting up signs to say "speed camera not in use" or maybe something else just as useful (another topic entirely).


It would be lovely if it was that simple...

Go on here and search under 'Congestion Charge' to get a flavour of what's constantly under discussion. There's a bit more to it than just putting forward an idea and expecting it to work.

http://london.gov.uk/mqt/public/fulltext-search-result.do

Next time you're in London let me know, one of my friends is on the London Assembly so I might be able to meet you and arrange a visit to City Hall if he's free, it's an interesting insight. And he'd be delighted to know you believe he's complicit in a scam - and has that high a salary! (it's actually about half of that, I have friends who get more in IT for doing not much at all!)

I really don't care if it's as simple as flicking a switch or re-paving London.

If it's wrong, it's wrong!

The methods I propose will without a doubt increase the amount of drivers who will pay the congestion charge and reduce the amount of drivers who fail to pay.
It will not cost anywhere near a percentage of what they'll receive throughout the year.

The method TFL have chosen increases the chances that drivers will fail to pay, the lack of information increases those chance once again.
It's quite dishonest to claim something is for reducing congestion when (according to the BBC) all it's done is cost the public.

I've no problems telling anybody that they are complicit in a scam if they know about it and have done nothing. Chances are many people in power agree but the monetary consequences are too high to say anything.

[ukpartydj]

Can I also ask who is your friend who is an Assembly Member?
I am able to send questions to each member and maybe by asking him / her to put the questions forward to the major at the next question time I might get lucky and receive some kind of explanation to this madness.

[funkymook]

II've no problems telling anybody that they are complicit in a scam if they know about it and have done nothing. Chances are many people in power agree but the monetary consequences are too high to say anything.

It was a friendly invitation for a tour that the general public wouldn't normally get and perhaps a chance to put forward your views to a member of the London Assembly whilst having a cuppa with them - not a challenge!

I also would've had to the take time (and expense) to be there - a thanks for the offer would've been polite :muppet:

I'm out.....

[DJIanScott]

.....I almost feel like opening the great debate on the Thurrock/Dartford crossing, which was destined to be a free crossing after it had more than paid for itself in 2002. However, under a crafty Government Act that recommends tolls upon highways that are prone to congestion (i.e. busy and the best route without a lengthy East London detour), the fee remained (and increased by over 100% for small commercial vehicles). Recommended to transport at least 140,000 vehicles per day, at a bare minimum the tolls are turning over £980k per week, or a Tory-hand-warming £51m each year.

The bottom line is that we've all had our pants pulled down time and time again and like good, stiff-upper-lipped Brits, we take the punishment over and over.

[funkymook]

Just a reminder not to make it too political folks - that's against forum rules.

[ukpartydj]

I guess if somebody makes a road or bridge they should have the right to charge for its use. However if govenment money is used to make it then that's just taking the biscuit! Will make long distance gigs much more fun to calculate costs if they continue these methods

[Corabar Steve]

Why are you still banging on about this?

Get over it, the stress can't be doing you any good.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I agree.

It's going no-where and everyone has had their opinion.

[Pe7e]

:agree: It started to get boring several pages ago.

[Shaun]

I haven't found it boring. I've learnt something about something I knew little about.

[Excalibur]

I guess if somebody makes a road or bridge they should have the right to charge for its use.
Well yes, but £1.50 for. the Humber Bridge? Exorbitant. :D


I haven't found it boring. I've learnt something about something I knew little about.

"A day without learning is a day wasted. ";)

[yourdj]

Why are you still banging on about this?

Get over it, the stress can't be doing you any good.

:agree:

it has been a bit drawn out.
My experience of things that are not fair (such as clamping fines) is to just pay it and forget about it as the negative effects of worrying/being angry about something you cannot get out of, or is not fair are not very beneficial and just adds to the initial disheartened feeling.

[funkymook]

THREAD CONGESTION CHARGE

C

[ukpartydj]

Some people prefer to let people take advantage if them. Some don't. If nobody stands up to unfair practices then imagine where the world would be.


THREAD CONGESTION CHARGE

C
:Censored: not again

[Corabar Steve]

:Censored: not again

Yep everybody (that is not site staff) posting on this thread beyond that point in the thread is now liable for a £60 penalty fine per post.

Please send cheques (made payable to S Jones) to the Corabar Entertainment postal address

[Marc J]

Yep everybody (that is not site staff) posting on this thread beyond that point in the thread is now liable for a £60 penalty fine per post.

Please send cheques (made payable to S Jones) to the Corabar Entertainment postal address

Like clamping, is that only enforceable in England? :D

You should all come up here...no clamping, no bridge or road tolls anymore, no prescription charges....:D

[Corabar Steve]

No, it relates to the forum as a sole entity.

(That's £180 so far)

[Shaun]

THREAD CONGESTION CHARGE

C


:d :d

[Excalibur]

(That's £180 so far)

Oops, sorry Steve. I appear to have cost you £60.