Haze machine

[Dj brummie]

Hi I want to buy something that will make my lights look better. Is a haze machine best for not setting smoke machine off. Thanks for info.

[discoworld]

A haze machine is certainly less likely to set off smoke alarms - however, it still can and will. The trick with a hazer is to be subtle with it - you don't need clumps of it in the air like smoke machines generate. Short bursts will do the job just fine.

[funkymook]

Most venues won't allow a haze or smoke machine so it's always best to have a light-show that looks good without it and think of it as a bonus when you can.

[chriskkj]

I use a Haze machine and it makes my light look great. you dont need a lot just short bursts and the fluid lasts for ages.
Be careful about setting off smoke alarms. Haze machine are not ment to set them off.
But if a venue has very sensitive ones then they will go off. As i found out last week Ops.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Cheap haze machines will set off smoke alarms as they are generally smoke machines with fans and 'thinner' fluid.

The more expensive 'proper' controllable machines are easier to set so that they don't set alarms off.

[BeerFunk]

When I first started out I was all for smoke machines, but my experience is that it's not worth having one, unless you invest in a proper machine, as Darren says.

I'd say invest in good, clear, bright lighting and forget about smoke. You could always make an exception for gigs that you've been asked specifically about lighting (eg. Club night), and hire one in especially.

[paulg]

I'm pretty certain that 9 out of 10 of the venues I last visited would not allow a smoke or haze machine and more importantly, none of the audiences would have wanted it. I hate the stuff. It's becoming a bit old fashioned to use smoke now and you can get lighting quite cheaply that is good enough not to need enhancing. I've attached a picture from this Saturday and I suppose it could always be improved upon but not with smoke. Personally, I think projection of gobo's and room lighting enhancments are the way to go these days.

[SamV]

You can get some proper high end haze machines that have no visual haze particles but still shows the beams. Something like the Phantom Pea Soup Hazer is amazing. But providing you use something of at least Le Maitre Neutron grade, it shouldn't set off any fire alarms. I've certainly never never set one off.

[dicky]

Thought I may as well resurrect an old relevant thread rather than start a new one about haze

I have a QTFX V1 vertical fogger that I got cheap (£65) and I use that in most venues I am currently playing. I've rigged my own LED lighting so I get nice coloured bursts of yellow/red fog too!

I'm not sure where this 'most venues won't allow use of smoke and haze' comes form - has that ever been properly researched? In my experiecne the opposite is true. In fact the venue I play most often now has a policy of turning off the smoke detectors at the alarm panel when live gigs are on (or at least they started to operate that policy after I set it off once at a 21st birthday!!)

However I am now playing one regular monthly booking that has a smoke detector directly above my head so I haven't used the fogger there (yet - I did consider using it horizontally and blasting the fog away from me and the detector) and I did see the detector all taped up with masking tape one week from a previous disco or band I guess but didn't ask them about that!

I also have a booking this coming weekend in a large church hall. Now I went to look around the place already and they have several smoke detectors in the large room, however they tell me that a very light haze would be OK and other discos have used that

So I am now thinking of adding an oil-based hazer to my arsenal of effects for when I can't used the vertical fogger, ready for next weekends gig (60th birthday)

I don't really want to spend more than necessary - I can get this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KAM-KHM600-High-Output-Haze-Machine-600w-inc-Timer-Remote-/271728251517?pt=UK_CE_DJ_equip_SmokeMachines_atmos pherics_ET&hash=item3f4444127d from my local disco shop with 5l of fluid for £125 (or probably a few quid less on line)

I know KAM stuff is generally not the best of quality, however for something as simple as a hazer are these actually any good for my intended use even though they are not expensive?

I watched a few videos about the use of hazers and how not to set off alarms by using them in timed bursts on a 5min on / 5min off duty cycle

Would the KH600 do that - it does say it has a timer/remote

Any other good (better?) suggestions in a similar price range, or good reasons why I should rethink or strongly consider spending more on one?

Cheers
Rich

[Daryll]

I got one of These (http://www.kam.co.uk/index.php?action=product&product_id=493).
dont use it very often for reasons given above , but when i can use it , its great, set on timer max fan and min haze

cheers

daryll

[dicky]

Cheers Daryl

That looks to be the big brother of the KHM600 I posted so possibly I was on the right track?

from a quick perusal the spec seems to be

KHM600 - 600W heater, 6000 cu ft/min output ~ £125
KHM800 - 800W heater, 8000 cu ft/min output ~ £165

Can anyone tell me what difference that extra £40 makes in real 'usage' terms? Would both have much the same effect but the KHM600 taking longer to reach the required haze level throughout the room, or does the lower output mean it can't reach the same effect at all?

Have you had any problem with the KHM800 unit setting off smoke alarms when set on max fan/min haze?

cheers
Rich

[Daryll]

Have you had any problem with the KHM800 unit setting off smoke alarms when set on max fan/min haze?

cheers
Rich

So far I have only used it in two venues that allow smoke/haze, so no idea what would happen , but venue rules are venue rules, if they say "no" then no it is

cheers

Daryll

[Benny Smyth]

When it comes to hazers, I always find that it's better to ask for forgivness over permission. If it is that much of a problem, the venue will be on you straight away. If they're not, can't be that bad, can it? Obviously if I'm sitting right underneath a sensor then it's a no go, so a bit of common sense is used but otherwise...

I use the Chauvet 2D. Had it two years now, no problems.

[DJ Jules]

When it comes to hazers, I always find that it's better to ask for forgivness over permission.

It's a good theory, until you have to ask the Fire brigade for forgiveness, and reimburse the venue for the fine they have had to pay out. It's worth checking if the fire alarm system makes an automatic call before chancing it.

Julian

[Benny Smyth]

It's a good theory, until you have to ask the Fire brigade for forgiveness, and reimburse the venue for the fine they have had to pay out. It's worth checking if the fire alarm system makes an automatic call before chancing it.

If the venue doesn't disclose to me that I'm not allowed to do something, it'd be a very hard task for them to get me to reimburse their fine.

[ukpartydj]

I use the Chauvet 2D. Had it two years now, no problems.

Have you ever set of the smoke detectors with haze?
I've done it 3 times now with smoke machines (the venue/client has said I can use one), been using a hazer instead for a year and not set one off yet.

I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring along a spare smoke detector if you're in a venue where there are definitely smoke detectors.

[Shaun]

Thought I may as well resurrect an old relevant thread rather than start a new one about haze


I'm not sure where this 'most venues won't allow use of smoke and haze' comes form - has that ever been properly researched? In my experiecne the opposite is true. In fact the venue I play most often now has a policy of turning off the smoke detectors at the alarm panel when live gigs are on (or at least they started to operate that policy after I set it off once at a 21st birthday!!)



Hi Rich,

I guess the 'research' comes down to the experiences of each of us.

I ask if haze can be used at each venue I play. And out of the last 100 venues I can count on one hand the amount of times they've said yes to me using haze. Out of the ones that allowed it, they have been older type venues without smoke detectors fitted. The newer hotels etc just won't budge. it can be a pain on occasions. I've had clients wanting a 'nightclub' type of lighting experience, and they always seem disappointed when I point out that the venue might not allow the use of atmospherics. Even when clients have specifically asked the venue if there is any leeway the venues stand their ground.

[Nakatomi]

If smoke detectors in venues are anything like the ones in my new build house.. they go off without even being able to see any smoke. Maybe you'll be alright if you don't use bacon or sausage scented haze fluid ;)

[DJ Jules]

If the venue doesn't disclose to me that I'm not allowed to do something, it'd be a very hard task for them to get me to reimburse their fine.

Fair point, but by the time you start that conversation, you've forced the building to be evacuated, you've got guests and staff who have been stood outside in the rain for 30mins while their buffet goes cold and basically you've completely screwed your relationship with the venue and your client.

Unless venues explicitly tell me that I can use smoke/haze (a handful of the better venues around here intentionally fitted heat detectors instead of smoke detectors and a few older ones consider a "smoke detector" to be something that takes batteries and is screwed to the kitchen ceiling), I don't consider it worth the risk.

Julian

[yourdj]

I use the Kam one now without any issue, get one with a timer as i always foget to press the button!!
Having said that little Kam one is very portable.

Does anyone know if this:

17061

will work with this??

17062

Eg is the timing mechanism in the remote or the machine??

[Benny Smyth]

Fair point, but by the time you start that conversation, you've forced the building to be evacuated, you've got guests and staff who have been stood outside in the rain for 30mins while their buffet goes cold and basically you've completely screwed your relationship with the venue and your client.

How many gigs have you been to where the building has been evacuated even though it's abundantly clear that the reason the alarms are going off is because of the DJ's hazer?


Have you ever set of the smoke detectors with haze?

Touch wood, never. Although, to be fair, I tend to use it minimally anyway - just enough to show the beams.

[DJ Jules]

How many gigs have you been to where the building has been evacuated even though it's abundantly clear that the reason the alarms are going off is because of the DJ's hazer?

I've never set the alarms off, but I've been part of an evacuation caused by a dimmer DJ in a neighbouring function room which almost completely ruined a surprise party (the evacuation occurred at the start of the night before the guest of honour had arrived and she was staying in the hotel).
A friend of mine has set alarms off a couple of times and caused mass evacuations (and paid the fines). If you think about your larger hotels, the alarms will ring and people will leave their rooms even if the guests and staff in the function room know full well the cause. If the alarm is linked to the fire brigade, then when it goes off, it's already too late to avoid the penalty.

My point is that you've either got to be very sure that either there is no smoke detector or, that setting it off isn't going to cause massive issues for the venue and yourself (e.g. isn't linked to the fire brigade and be easily cancelled), or if you're going to chance it, that your smoke machine or hazer is absolutely not going to set them off.

I've also heard stories about DJ's setting off fire alarms at community centres and the party being ruined because the guy with the key to reset them is actually not on site...

Julian

[mattydj50]

My regular venue has a simple policy. No smoke, haze, fog or anything.

If caught trying to use it, they confiscate the piece of equipment and you get it back at the end of the night.

[ukpartydj]

How many gigs have you been to where the building has been evacuated even though it's abundantly clear that the reason the alarms are going off is because of the DJ's hazer?

I've done a birthday party where the client has said smoke is fine, the venue also said it was fine. The alarm went off and they started getting everybody out while I tried to explain it's probably my smoke machine but they wouldn't have it! Haha after standing outside for 20mins they politely asked I turn the machine off - I'd imagine they'll be a venue that no longer allows smoke anymore. I don't bother with smoke anymore though unless it's a kids party and they specifically want it.

Just did a little test and filmed it as I don't see any videos showing smoke detectors and haze machines.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPFUTwdcl_I

[Nakatomi]

That smoke detector in your video looks like it might be an ionisation type.. which wouldn't go off unless it picks up smoke from something burning. In any case, you need to mount it on the ceiling. Standing it up on its end like that might stop it working properly anyway.

The picky ones in venues are more than likely the photoelectric type, where smoke/haze particles enter the detector casing & diffract light beams causing them to be detected as a fire.

I've only seen one test video.. and here it is.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ1mPYX5V2Q

[ukpartydj]

That smoke detector in your video looks like it might be an ionisation type
Yes it is.


which wouldn't go off unless it picks up smoke from something burning.
Actually it would, the fact I managed to set the alarm off in the video disproves this.


In any case, you need to mount it on the ceiling.
I only just got new smoke alarms from moving house and the instructions did say you can mount it on the ceiling or on the wall as long as it was towards the top of the wall but with around one foot clearance.


the photoelectric type, where smoke/haze particles enter the detector casing & diffract light beams causing them to be detected as a fire.
I agree. And I feel you may have missed the point - I didn't know if the haze machine could set off the smoke detector at all and I wanted to know how much haze you'd need in the room before it would set off so I could ensure that I never allow that amount of haze to build up.

[Nakatomi]

Yes it is.


Actually it would, the fact I managed to set the alarm off in the video disproves this.


I only just got new smoke alarms from moving house and the instructions did say you can mount it on the ceiling or on the wall as long as it was towards the top of the wall but with around one foot clearance.



Ah well, not all smoke detectors are alike then. My mistake.


I agree. And I feel you may have missed the point - I didn't know if the haze machine could set off the smoke detector at all and I wanted to know how much haze you'd need in the room before it would set off so I could ensure that I never allow that amount of haze to build up.

Apparently ionisation type smoke detectors are more prone to being falsely triggered by steam & the like, contrary to what I originally believed. Oops.

In any case, you'd be better off working with a venue on the matter of whether to haze or not - and if they say no, go with that. If the clients insist for whatever reason, get them to take it up with the venue & see if they'll budge but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't. Liabilities, limitation of risk etc.. sure somebody could put a zone in test mode or cover the sensor, but what if they forget to undo it? The venue will likely look to cover their own back with the minimum of effort required - i.e. just ban fog & haze.

[musicology]

... or cover the sensor, but what if they forget to undo it? The venue will likely look to cover their own back with the minimum of effort required - i.e. just ban fog & haze.

They could cover nearby sensors without worry (manual break the glass system will still work) but you're right, they just can't be bothered with anyones wishes. Just their own risk aversion. They just don't care about people trying to create the best possible show.

[dicky]

I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring along a spare smoke detector if you're in a venue where there are definitely smoke detectors.


That to me sounds like a damn good idea actually :D

I have been told that I can use 'very light haze' tomorrow and I went and got myself one of the KAM KHM600 hazers for £120 this week

I will go and buy a couple battery powered smoke detectors tomorrow and mount them on my lighting gantry above the hazer so I can see the indicator LEDs - I'll point this out to the venue owner explaining if I set either of those off at any point I will turn the hazer off..... and know what, I reckon he will be rather impressed with my diligence.

Rich
PS - in fact it just occrued to me it would not be very difficult to rig things so that if either of the detectors goes off, it cuts the power to my hazer!! Eureka!