Question about Subs / Bass Bins

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Hi all,

Just wondered - For those of you that have Subs, do you take them to every function no matter what?
I must admit that I have taken it easy and used the Mackies on their own more often than not because it's quicker to set up like that and most of my functions are 120 at the most.

I have a pair of RCF705's that I have used just twice since I bought them and I have just tested them ready for Sunday's wedding for 200 guests in a marquee and I think I have fallen for them. They're lovely!

I was speaking to another DJ the other week who said that he uses his all the time because it just gives a better clarity of sound and I have to agree.
I'm never at the point of pushing my Mackies to the limit but I think the Subs would take some weight off their shoulders if I used them more.

What do you think? and What do you do?

[Shaun]

I use subs 99% of the time, even for small weddings. I just prefer the sound when the subs are used.

[funkymook]

Hi all,

Just wondered - For those of you that have Subs, do you take them to every function no matter what?
I must admit that I have taken it easy and used the Mackies on their own more often than not because it's quicker to set up like that and most of my functions are 120 at the most.

I have a pair of RCF705's that I have used just twice since I bought them and I have just tested them ready for Sunday's wedding for 200 guests in a marquee and I think I have fallen for them. They're lovely!

I was speaking to another DJ the other week who said that he uses his all the time because it just gives a better clarity of sound and I have to agree.
I'm never at the point of pushing my Mackies to the limit but I think the Subs would take some weight off their shoulders if I used them more.

What do you think? and What do you do?


I think you can happily use a decent pair of full range tops.....until you add subs....then there's no going back, you'll always feel there's something lacking if you don't use them.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Thanks guys. I've got one side (Sub and Top) set up in the living room at the moment and it just sounds so much better.
I guess I have to put it down to laziness because that's the only reason I haven't used them that much because my set up is relatively quick.
I think that will change from now on.

If anyone else uses the 705's, could they possibly advise how they have the 3 buttons at the back and what the volume on the subs should be set to.

At the moment I have the buttons as the following:

Link - Button pressed in
80hz / 120hz - Button pressed in
0 / 180 - Button out

(Sorry I know it sounds stupid but I can't tell what the little diagrams mean)

[DJIanScott]

It goes without saying that the sound will always be much better using subs.....but 90% of the gigs we do (weddings, birthdays, etc) the clients and their guests couldn't care less...it's purely a DJ thing. Hosting house music nights needs the extra oomph but the average weddings are always happy with full range cabs on poles.
I've been a live sound engineer and a DJ for longer than I care to remember, and I'm very fussy about what comes out the other end, but I balance that against set-up time, room size and music type.....and most gigs are now conducted using only 2 x 15" active full range cabs. In fact for a small underground bar last week I used 2 x active 10" cabs! And not a single complaint!

the funny thing is......we all want lovely thumping bass and sweet highs, yet we spend the entire night behind the bloody things and we're probably the only one in the room who appreciates it!!!

[MikeW]

I have had a RCF905 sub for approx two years, and in all that time I think I will have used it about 6 times! I run 2 x QSC K12s which I find have a fair bit of bass anyway. There was a time when I was doing a wedding in a large hall with approx 200 people. My bass bin was running at approx 25% and someone asked me if I could turn the bass back a bit as it was too boomy!

Anyone want to buy a bass bin in excellent condition :)

[funkymook]

I have had a RCF905 sub for approx two years, and in all that time I think I will have used it about 6 times! I run 2 x QSC K12s which I find have a fair bit of bass anyway. There was a time when I was doing a wedding in a large hall with approx 200 people. My bass bin was running at approx 25% and someone asked me if I could turn the bass back a bit as it was too boomy!

Anyone want to buy a bass bin in excellent condition :)

I had that several times when I had my 905 - awesome bass bin, but just too much for the majority of my bookings (weddings, up to 120 guests). I have a Vertus now, even with that I get asked to turn the bass down at some venues.

Gary with your

Link - Button pressed in
80hz / 120hz - Button pressed in
0 / 180 - Button out

If your using a single bin the 0/180 won't do anything (it's to reverse the phase in case you get two bins cancelling each other out). If you're using a pair just try it and go with whatever sounds best.

Link - doesn't that switch between the 705's internal crossover and full signal? In your case whichever uses the internal crossover.

80/120hz - again use your ears, whichever sounds best to you is the right setting.

You can even try running your tops with a full signal with your subs - I tried that a few times and it sounded better than the crossover in certain situations.

[sweetie]

I've two RCF 905's and the odd time Ive used both, my god it was immense but I generally just use one and sometimes none. My tops are RCF HD12s and I got a last minute gig a few weeks ago and had to travel an hour home and then had an hour to fill the car, shave, shower, get clothes ready etc. I arrived at the venue with plenty of time to spare and started to setup and to my horror I had only one top speaker with me! Well I managed fine without it as I had my bin but on it's own I might have struggled or at least felt less comfortable with the sound. Those HD12s are a powerful beast!

[Excalibur]

Balance again. Upstairs, small function, tops only. Downstairs, all level, big gig, add my ( relatively big and cumbersome ) tops for all the reasons stated above. Simples.

But what about the venues/functions that aren't so clearcut? Well for the borderline/ small space gigs, I've got an Alto 15" sub, which is light, and will run two tops. All bases covered. ( I hope )!

There are no hard and fast rules. Subs and tops is optimal, but if you've got three flights of stairs to climb, they're not making the ascent, believe me. Those of us with wooden 15" tops as an option can cheerfully dispense with subs, without losing much thud.

[deltic]

Have been known to use an odd sub occasionally :)

[Sapphire Disco]

I've just had a demo at RSD near Reading about an hour ago I have 2x RCF HD12s tops but only had one RCF 905 sub so I've just ordered another RCF 905 I think you need to use subs with recent chart music.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I always use one RCF sub with my tops, but then the tops are QSC K10s and although they could probably handle an evening on their own, I don't want to push them.

Subs aren't always necessary, but do make everything sound much better IMO.

I use 2 x subs when I am doing proms/18ths etc

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Thanks again for the advice and comments.
I was at RSD last week when I got the HD4500 and I mentioned that I'd only used the Subs twice since I bought them and Dave laughed and said I should be using them all the time. Then someone else mentioned it so I think I will take it on board.
I cut down set up time by pre-wiring my lights so I think I will still be under an hour setting up even with the Subs.

I've got a wedding for 200 this Sunday in a marquee and my original thought was (I mentioned it a while back) to use the Subs and Mackies but also my JBL's so there was plenty of sound but I'm not sure really. I think as long as it's nice and punchy on the dance floor then it should be enough.

(Edit)

Sorry Peter, I just saw your comments. To be honest I don't do many venues where the Disco is upstairs but if it were then I'd maybe take just one or none at all.
I have a 400w Alto Combo amp that I use for my keyboards for the band and also for background music, speeches and race nights. I've never DJ'd using that but it would be enough for a children's party if I ever did one.

[Daryll]

every time , mainly because my tops are 2 X 8" + horn, nothing below 130hz goes to the tops, in the same vein , nothing above 130ish hz goes to the subs

Daryll

[DeckstarDeluxe]

My weddings are rarely more than 80 guests so most of the time it's just two mackie tops.

[DJColsie]

I do use two tops on their own, two tops and one sub and for bigger gigs, two tops and two subs.

I don't think it is a coincidence the the two biggest compliments I have received about sound quality this year have both been when using a pair of tops and a pair of subs.

[Imagine]

Maybe I'm just strange...I take both my subs to every gig :daft:

Maybe I need to look at cutting down the amount of kit I carry around ;)

[Corabar Steve]

I use subs at every gig, my MAUI28s wouldn't work without them.

[velocityroadshow]

I take both my subs as well. I feel that you get that you get a punchier sound than the bass you can get from a full cab. Yes, I agree it is a lot more kit to carry around and set-up but as aforementioned it does relieve some pressure off your top cabs.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I think most people could get away with using 2 x tops at the average gig, but the sound is so much better with subs.

No comparison really.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

My weddings are rarely more than 80 guests so most of the time it's just two mackie tops.

I don't think it has to do with the number of people - it's the sound quality for me.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I agree with that too.
That's why I am going to make a concious effort to take them with me as much as possible.
I like clarity over quantity and with the subs I can have both.

[yourdj]

I don't think it has to do with the number of people - it's the sound quality for me.

:agree:Always use mine even if just for background. I do have a Dave mind you so it amplifies my tops.
Would probably still use a sub. :)

[chrisj]

Definitely better with subs. I normally use Bose L1 and B2, sometimes 2 of each. For small tight venues Behringer 208 tops and Also TS15sub.
Wouldn't want to be without a sub these days.

- - - Updated - - -

Definitely better with subs. I normally use Bose L1 and B2, sometimes 2 of each. For small tight venues Behringer 208 tops and Also TS15sub.
Wouldn't want to be without a sub these days.

[velocityroadshow]

The other question is, do you hide your subs or keep them on show.

Me, for example, the tops come out of my subs but have seen some where they hide them under their console.

[DJColsie]

If using one, under the booth. If two, out with a pole and a top on each.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Yep, I've got the poles. The times that I have used them I have used 2 as I like the symmetry.
Never tried one on it's own and don't know if it would fit under the Ultimax anyway?

It's only my personal opinion but I don't like seeing one sub and top with pole on one side and just one top on a stand on the other side.

[Excalibur]

I use subs at every gig, my MAUI28s wouldn't work without them.
Mayhap, but we can effectively rule you out of this discussion, since your subs have smaller drivers than my tops. ;)


I think most people could get away with using 2 x tops at the average gig, but the sound is so much better with subs.

No comparison really.
Unless you have to carry the blighters upstairs. While it's hard to dispute Darren's view ( cos basically he's right. :D ) at times, that can be an ideal world scenario. It's better with subs, but do the function, the punters, the venue and the extra work justify putting in that extra time and effort? Not always, in my view.


Yep, I've got the poles. The times that I have used them I have used 2 as I like the symmetry.
Never tried one on it's own and don't know if it would fit under the Ultimax anyway?

It's only my personal opinion but I don't like seeing one sub and top with pole on one side and just one top on a stand on the other side.

I and many others value symetry highly, but again, it's not always viable.

[Imagine]

Yep, I've got the poles. The times that I have used them I have used 2 as I like the symmetry.
Never tried one on it's own and don't know if it would fit under the Ultimax anyway?

It's only my personal opinion but I don't like seeing one sub and top with pole on one side and just one top on a stand on the other side.

Very rarely on display. They fit quite nicely either side of my new fold up desk and behind the equinox screen, leaving the tops out on scrimmed stands....just looks better than a couple of big black boxes sitting there IMHO

[DJColsie]

It's only my personal opinion but I don't like seeing one sub and top with pole on one side and just one top on a stand on the other side.

Me too

[Excalibur]

Very rarely on display. They fit quite nicely either side of my new fold up desk and behind the equinox screen, leaving the tops out on scrimmed stands....just looks better than a couple of big black boxes sitting there IMHO

There I'd disagree. My big black boxes are things of beauty, added to which the poles for them are far superior to my tripods.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Very rarely on display. They fit quite nicely either side of my new fold up desk and behind the equinox screen, leaving the tops out on scrimmed stands....just looks better than a couple of big black boxes sitting there IMHO

But where would drunk arseholes sit their drinks then?:confused:;)

[Imagine]

But where would drunk arseholes sit their drinks then?:confused:;)

We're sophisticated down this neck of the woods Jim....we use tables :daft:

Anyway, the amount of thump my bass cones give off....you can't sit anything on them for any length of time (trust me...I've tried and stuff comes flying off within a couple of minutes). It's been known for them to physically MOVE across wooden stages in the past.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Very rarely on display. They fit quite nicely either side of my new fold up desk and behind the equinox screen, leaving the tops out on scrimmed stands....just looks better than a couple of big black boxes sitting there IMHO

I would totally disagree that scrimmed stands look better than poled subs and tops...

Take a tripod and put a load of material round it to make it stand out even more.....right. :D

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I would totally disagree that scrimmed stands look better than poled subs and tops...

Take a tripod and put a load of material round it to make it stand out even more.....right. :D

Ah yeah but then if you shine an uplighter against it as well.....:S

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

There I'd disagree. My big black boxes are things of beauty, added to which the poles for them are far superior to my tripods.

Ooh, we agree....quick, write it in the diary. :)

I also don't like to look of one sub and one tripod, but it's what I use the most as the sub doesn't fit under my stand.

[Imagine]

I actually prefer the scrimmed tripod with uplighters behind it I'm afraid. It stops people stumbling into them quite so easily as just a black box on the floor

[SamV]

The only gigs I don't use subs is for speech only gigs.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Ok, some more questions seeing as I have started using them again.
As mentioned in my Good Gig / Bad Gig review, I think I will need to do some tweaking to get the sound how I want it and I read somewhere on here ages ago about a 'sweet spot' or something?

I use a Denon X500 with them. I understand people set theirs up differently but I went as follows:

Mixer to Subs, Subs to Mackies.
Subs volume was set to 12 o'clock.
Mixer volume was at about 3 o'clock and the gains on the channels were around 10 o'clock.
EQ's on mixer and VDJ were all at 12 o'clock.

Orange limiter light on Subs was flickering at times and I remember it said somewhere about reducing the signal. I guess that means lowering the volume or gain controls?

On some of the older tracks I played I increased the bass EQ on the mixer as I went along as (for example) Rolling Stones - Satisfaction felt like it needed it but then I'd go back to 12 o'clock when required for more bass heavy tracks like Usher - Yeah or Beyonce - Crazy In Love.
(I hope this is making some sense???)

What I also found a bit strange was that I had to decrease the volume and bass on my microphone EQ because it felt like I was getting some bass feedback or a deep humming sound. It was probably because I was in quite a tight space and not that far away from the speakers.
It's probably also something I need to get used to but I also found that my voice on the microphone sounded a lot different because of the bass frequencies.
When I tested it out in the morning whilst soundchecking I walked around the front and it sounded fine so I guess it's a case of my ears getting used to the added bass.

I did feel though that at times people couldn't hear what I was saying that well because I was dropping the volume a bit to get rid of the deep hum when I switched on the microphone.

Does anyone go from the mixer straight to the tops and then tops to Subs?

Any advice would be appreciated. Cheers.

[Shaun]

Does anyone go from the mixer straight to the tops and then tops to Subs?



That's the way I do it.

[SamV]

No way does a stand and scrim look nice.

Also I'd be a little worried if your subs move so much that you can't put stuff on top, that implies poor bracing from the manufacturer. The bass should be in front of the cab shaking the peoples not it's own panels.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Reminds me - Last night a (very nice) young lady went to put her drink on the sub. She looked at me first, I shook my head and she put it on the dance floor. Seconds later it got kicked over.

[Twinspin]

2x RCF 312A's on stands either side and 1x RCF ART705 subwoofer behind my dj booth for about 90% of the gigs I do.

I don't fancy using both subs unless its really necessary. If im working in a really small venue Ill only my tops.

With regards to sub setup with tops.

Always use the subs inbuilt crossover on the ART705.

Out from the left channel of your mixer and into the left input on the ART705 and then XLR out from the top left high pass input into the input on SRM450s

Out from the right channel of your mixer and into the right input on the ART705 and then XLR out from the top right high pass input into the input on SRM450s

with 1 sub.... You would go 2x xlrs from the mixer into the left and right input on the ART705 and plug both speakers into the left and right high pass outputs.

I normally have my sub crossover set to 120hz

Sounds better using the subs internal crossover. Hope this is of some help. (Some white powercon - iec leads would be helpful as well I made some for my speakers so I can power my top cabs through the subs as well. Saves running 4x long leads to subs and tops)

16765

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Cheers for the advice.
I thought that was more or less what I was doing but on reading your post again it looks like I will have to get another set of leads because if I do it like you've suggested I will need to get female to female XLR. Is that correct?

Either that or some adaptors?

[Excalibur]

Cheers for the advice.
I thought that was more or less what I was doing but on reading your post again it looks like I will have to get another set of leads because if I do it like you've suggested I will need to get female to female XLR. Is that correct?


No.

XLR Outputs are ( almost ) always Male, and inputs Female.

[Benny Smyth]

Male to female, output to input, regardless which way you do it.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Believe me, I know it looks bloody stupid and I felt even worse writing the thing and I know what I am doing.
I just questioned myself following Twinspin's post.

Generally I connect the XLR cables to the Balanced Output on the mixer and then straight to the Mackies.

I originally thought (and Shaun said he does it this way) that going to the Mackies and then from them to the Subs would be the easiest thing to do.
After reading many posts regarding Subs on this forum over the years I thought I'd go from the mixer to the Subs and then to the Mackies. Easy, just connect them up and that's it but then it gets a bit confusing (not really) when people start mentioning crossovers etc.

The reason I asked today was because the Balanced Output on the Mixer is a female connection. Going by Twinspin's description / tips I wondered how I would go to where he said if the end was Male? Luckily I had some female adaptors that I bought ages ago so I did what he suggested and then went from the Subs to the high pass on the Mackies.

Now, I am a bit confused.

[Benny Smyth]

Easiest way to do it:

Mixer > Subs > Tops.

Grab you manuals for the 705s and see which is the best crossover setting. On the 905s that I use, it's a button but I think it's a switch on the 705s?

[Excalibur]

Female outputs on the mixer? Gary, unless your X500 has had gender reassignment, it has male XLR outputs. Connect those to the female inputs on the subs, and either the link or hi pass male outputs on the sbs to the female inputs on the tops. I can't for the life of me work out how or why you would need gender changers. :confused::confused:

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Apologies, you are totally correct and I have no idea what I was thinking yesterday.
I have been doing it correctly from the start but as I said, I started doubting myself.
How long have I been using bloody XLR leads.......too long! How I even got Male & Female mixed up I don't know (Oi! Don't start....I know where that's going!).
I was just having "one of those days" I think.

Thanks again and I think I'll go and have a lay down and sort my head out.

[Twinspin]

Not a great drawer. But will give you the right idea

16770

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Cheers for taking the time to do that.
Like I said, I was doing right all along, I just doubted and questioned myself.

[Sapphire Disco]

I'm just wondering what would it would sound like if you then connected the full out into the input of each sub channel not being used, would obviously make your subs mono if you are running stereo but would it improve the base ?

[Twinspin]

It's no problem Gary.

With regards to connecting all inputs and outputs up on the sub. I'm not sure how that would work. because you would have to use the booth outputs on your mixer as well to be able to put 2x inputs into each sub with 2x of the subs high pass outputs into each top cab that wouldn't be possible. You would need 4x active top cabs 2x to each sub to be able to run it like that.

Personally though i wouldn't recommend trying it. I find it always sounds fine running mono into each speaker and sub with both sides connected up to get stereo.