Not totally happy with my PA system..... advice please

[dicky]

OK well I only had the system running for a few weeks but I am not that happy with the sound

It can certainly rattle the optics and feel the bass through the stage floor and the very top end is quite crisp but overall it sounds 'wooly' on a lot of songs and mid/low frequencies can sound simply horrible on some tracks eg Blancmange - Living On The Ceiling. Disco stuff eg instrumental breaks with heavy bass and high-hats/cymbals/handclaps sounds acceptable

I think the problem is that I cut corners (and budget) too much on the speakers

I have the following

2 x QTX 18" Bass Speakers
2 x KAM Dual 15 cabs + horns for main speakers

I stack the KAMs on top of the QTX either side of the booth as I am usually short on space and have them around 8ft apart

The whole lot of speakers only cost me £340

I'm driving this set up with

Numark Mixtrack Pro II
Behringer Mixer DJX700
Crown Pulse 21100 (2 x 1100W RMS) direct drive to Main Cabs via master output on mixer
W Audio EP-1300 (2 x 650W RMS) fed via Citronix CX23 from booth output on mixer

Crossover is set at 120Hz. I am not using the High output from the crossover

No matter how I set it up I can't get the sound I really want (crisp and clear with hard punchy bass)


I'm toying in my head with a few other ideas

1. Getting a graphic equalizer eg CEQ 215 to allow better control of the amps
2. Try driving the Crown 21100 / Dual 15s from the high output of the CX23
3. Getting some more tops (possible 8" or 12" drivers eg LD 8/1 or LD 12/2 or similar on tripods) and another W-Audio amp to drive from the high output of the CX23 - run along side the existing setup
4. Ditching my speakers (or at least keep as a backup or additional PA for very large venues) and replace them with Wharfedale EVP-X15B MKII subs and Wharfedale EVP-X15 MKII tops. I have heard these running in the local disco emporium and liked the sound. Using the same Amps I have now.

5. Ditching my speakers and getting some other combination up to similar cost of the Wharfdale setup (approx £870) Using the same Amps I have now. Possibly some good quality second hand speakers within this price range.

Other possibilities I did not consider properly I guess include......

There is something intrisically wrong with (the quality of) my Amps?
There is something wrong with the way I am using (stacking) the speakers?
I have my EQ balance all set up wrong on the mixer?
There is something wrong in the way I am connecting the kit up?
The Behringer DJX 700 just isn't a very good sounding mixer?
The sound output from the Numark Mixtrack Pro just isn't very good?


So I guess I really need some good sound advice (pun definitely intended) from here..... as usual


Rich

[ukpartydj]

18" subs generally aren't "punchy", I had one which was great with deep sounds but lacked punch.
I've got the 15" QTX active speakers which are alright for the price, use them a lot in venues where you would normally get away without a sub at all

If you're looking for a clearer sound with the tops not sure you can achieve that without upgrading speakers? Maybe somebody else can help

[funkymook]

I wouldn’t add anything else to the chain in the hope it’ll improve things, it won’t. If you have a quality input and quality output you don’t need anything in the middle.

My advice would be to get new speakers first. As you’ve heard the Wharfdale’s elsewhere and like them that’s a sensible option, it also means you’ve got a good reference point. (And sell the ones you’ve got, if you need a bigger set-up just hire something in).

The next weak point I reckon is the Mixtrack - I’d recommend spending a bit more on a decent controller, it really does make a difference. I use the Denon MC600Mk2, but I’m sure others can recommend their favourites.

Then if it still doesn’t sound right, check exactly how it’s set-up where you’ve heard it and copy that as much as possible.

With all the sales on it’s a good time to buy, either new or 2nd hand as people upgrade.

[Nakatomi]

One thing that isn't on your 'to try' list isn't connecting the mid/tops to the active crossover. Why not? Have you tried that already?

Muddy midbass can make things sound a bit nasty. The idea of having a sub is to take the bass load off your mid/top cabs isn't it? If your xover frequency is set at 120Hz, but you're not rolling off the bottom end of the mid/tops then you're likely to end up a messy midbass range IMHO. So try that first.. costs nowt :-)

[dicky]

2. Try driving the Crown 21100 / Dual 15s from the high output of the CX23
Rich





One thing that isn't on your 'to try' list isn't connecting the mid/tops to the active crossover. Why not? Have you tried that already?


Sorry, That's what I meant by option 2, maybe i didn't state it clearly?

[Nakatomi]

Heh of course. I missed that. I blame being a bit whacked out by all the festivities.

Definitely try that. Seems to me the most obvious thing to go for first

[Excalibur]

Heh of course. I missed that. I blame being a bit whacked out by all the festivities.

Definitely try that. Seems to me the most obvious thing to go for first

Agreed. Also, I'd beg or borrow some single 12" tops, substitute them for the twin fifteens, and see what difference they make. Ought to sharpen it up a lot. They must be driven only with the high out for best results.

[dicky]

Well guys as it is free to try driving the KAM dual 15" from the high output on the CX23 into the Crown 21100 I will certainly try that on my next gig 10th Jan

And as you suggest I am sure I can hire or borrow some 12" tops from somewhere and try that next if the reconfiguring doesn't help

The odd things is no one else seems to have any complaint about the sound quality, not even family or the missus (who is a bit fussy) or Carl who roadies for me

But I don't think it sounds good - it seems to have some horrible resonances at mid-low frequencies in particular, so much so I find myself cutting the mid a bit on the mixer but then you lose richness of vocals so that's no good either.

I will try above and hope it resolves things but personally have a gut feeling the speakers are just not much good.


If there are any audiophiles here then to give an idea of the sound I would really like to achive - at home in the dining room come cocktail bar I have a Trio KA-828 Amp which I have had for nearly 20 years from new

Specifications
Power output: 130 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.007% at 130W/channel
Signal to noise ratio:107dB (line)

I use this to drive a pair of Bose 301s Series II mounted on wall brackets (these ones) http://worldwide.bose.com/productsupport/en_us/web/301_series2/page.html

Apart from me blowing one Bose main driver back in the early 90s on a house party (replaced with Bose original part) and a bit of resoldering on the Amp PCB due to an area of cooked PCB, this setup is still doing great service and sounds amazing, and very clear and loud even with 15-20 people in the room. Most folks honestly believe I have a sub in there but I don't, the sound all comes form the Bose 301s

I normally leave bass/treble set at pretty much nuetral and Loudness on. I drive it from winamp on an old Dell desktop. That's it.

If I could reproduce that sound quality at suitable SPLs for venues up to 150-200 people I would then definitely feel I have achieved what I would really like to do.

Further suggestions?

Rich

[dicky]

I use the Denon MC600Mk2, but I’m sure others can recommend their favourites.



Is that 600 or 6000?

[Nakatomi]

Is that 600 or 6000?

Likely the MC6000 - I'm not sure an MC600 exists.

FWIW, when it comes to PC USB audio ... Pretty much all USB audio setups use very similar codecs. I've heard £££ USB audio devices & I can't tell the difference between those & £2 USB audio adapters from Ebay when it comes to sound quality. Mind, I'd be looking to get rid of the Numark Mixtrack for another reason - the middle master fader? Blech! There's no point worrying about 24-bit 192kHz vs 16-bit 44.1KHz.. cos if you're playing CD rips they're gonna be 16-bit 44.1kHz :-)

I think the biggest improvement is going to come from using the active crossover as it's intended to be used. Let the subs take care of everything < 120Hz & the midtops do the rest.

[funktions]

if you want really punchy bass you need smaller drivers, the bigger the driver the lower the frequency you can get, to get punchy bass from 18's you need cabinets that are designed for that one purpose.
we are currently running 18" kilomax drivers in adapted cabs, they do what we want but have a good infill from a set of ohms. we don't drive the subs hard just enough, we run a fairly flat eq and it sounds ok. we also have some other speakers we use depending on the venues, one set are very bright and a bit too much for a smaller venue but give them some space they are very good (12" single and compression driver top)
we also run everything from 1 master output via an old citronic 3way crossover .
I personally would look at all your cables first and make sure they are all the same polarity so your speakers are moving "in phase" running even 1 speaker out of phase will make your system sound bad. how about if you just run the dual 15's how do they sound ? may sound wooly if your missing a "frequency band" i.e. mid even 15" speakers cant reproduce everything.
just thinking out loud really as im in need of some sleep but being on call all weekend is putting that idea out. just feels like too many "big" speakers 18's and 15's and probably 2 piezo tweeters.

[Sapphire Disco]

Simple sell your speakers and buy the ones I have for sale, these work together very well and are both almost new :D


Salep://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?42131-Pair-Of-Wharfedale-15-quot-Full-Range[/url]
http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?42126-15-quot-Subs-For-Sale

http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?42131-Pair-Of-Wharfedale-15-quot-Full-Rangehttp://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?42126-15-quot-Subs-For-Sale

[dicky]

From this discussion, what should i set the CX23 crossover at? I currently have it at 120Hz but not sure how i came to that figure

@sapphire
Hi Sapphire - yeah we have talked about these before didn't we and I am keen on the idea, it does seem to be my most cost effective upgrade choice, the only sticking point was you being so far away from me that it would cost me £100 in fuel to do the return trip in the van (admittedly fuel has gone down a bit since then) are those the Wharfdale EVP-X15?

It has just occurred to me my little sister lives in Portsmouth as she is up here at the moment for Xmas but I am not sure when she is next travelling this way - she has kids living in Stafford and Preston as well as down south so between them they must travel that route reasonably regularly, and Reading is pretty much in between and they have a large saloon car ;)

@anyone
What is the difference (in real terms) between the Mk1 and MkII Wharfdale EVP-X15?

How do the LD systems 12/2 http://www.cookies.co.uk/product.aspx?productid=25074 compare with the Wharfdale EVP-X15 MkII http://www.cookies.co.uk/product.aspx?productid=76941?

What is the best passives in this sort of price bracket?

I've googled this but it seems hard to find actual DJ comparison reviews between speakers, just the sales blurb on sites which claims every speaker is brilliant (even Skytec which I have been told is in fact not).

Rich

[Daryll]

From this discussion, what should i set the CX23 crossover at? I currently have it at 120Hz but not sure how i came to that figure



Have a look at your speaker specs, some where there will be a graph with roll off for the 18", set the x over to that , just to add weight to the fact that 18" speakers by design will never have that chest kicking punch a 15" or even a 12" has.
My system has a single 12"sub and 2 X 8" + horn tops ( per side), dual amps with X over , mine is set to 110hz for the sub , and a built in X over from 8"`s top- horn, think its 1.2khz.



However there is another option.....................any good with wood ??


http://www.dancetech.com/index.cfm?loading=pa&pa_loader=176

or

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

or


http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=home


Cheers

Daryll

[Shakermaker Promotions]

You said it yourself, everyone else doesn't have a problem with the sound except you.
You also stated that your complete speaker set up was £340.00. There's nothing wrong with that at all if they are sufficient for the gigs you are doing.
I would personally look at moving upwards with the speaker set up. Keep what you have as they obviously do what you want them to but when it comes to bigger audiences or back up etc then they'll be worth having.
When I first started I bought 2 pairs of JBL JRX125 full range passive speakers and a pair of Gemini GX450 actives. I used the Gemini's for a while but before long I realised that although the sound was good enough and I had no complaints, they wouldn't be good enough if bigger bookings came along. Well, not even bigger bookings really, bigger venues etc and I started using the JBL's more and more. I sold 1 pair of them as they were sitting there doing nothing but we're talking 8 years (maybe more) since I purchased them and they are still going strong.

I'm no gear snob (there are plenty of those around in this business) but I know what both suits me and does the job for me. I know a lot of people prefer RCF to Mackie and vice versa (I have both) but it is worth paying for the quality and reliability. The Mackie SRM450's go out with me week after week and they are yet to let me down. The sound quality is great and they also keep their price. The RCF subs are awesome and I have had them around 2 years and hardly used them until recently. They really fill out the sound. I can mix and match the set ups so I can have the RCF's with the Mackies for a complete active set up which is enough for probably 250+ but I can also have the RCF's with the JBL's, a mix of active and passive and it's more than enough for a bigger audience.

I guess it depends where you want to go with your bookings and at the end of the day YOU need to be happy with your sound and with what you're using.

[dicky]

Hmmm Interesting...... very intersting....

Trying to put the best bits of advice together am I right if I condense all this advice into:

1. Try running the KAM dual 15" cabs from the high output on the active X-Over and the 18" QTX cabs from the low output

2. Try some single 12" cabs instead of the dual 15" (if i can beg/borrow/scrounge some) plus my 18" QTX cabs (via crossover as above)

3. Check everything is in phase. I would honestly hope the speakers themselves are, they have Speakon connectors so surely I couldn't have one reversed could I? Is it even possible to have a reverse phased XLR lead?? The outputs from my mixer are phono - so I use phono-XLR to the crossover and XLR-XLR between the crossover and amp(s)

4. Yes Daryl I am very good with wood actually. Some of those plans look interesting, particularly the idea of using the 15" drivers out of my KAM dual 15 cabs to build something like these http://www.dancetech.com/index.cfm?loading=pa&pa_loader=176 to replace the 18" subs I currently use How much is the resultant sound/SPL a factor of the cabinet and how much a factor of quality of the speaker I wonder?

or.... just buy those used Wharfdale tops/ NJD subs which Sapphire has offered and use instead of my exsting setup..... but of course that is 4x 15" drivers instead of the 2x18 + 4x15 I currently have.... does that help solve the problem if it is a matter of 'too many big speakers' as someone already suggested?




hmmmmm...... :confused:

[Sapphire Disco]

or.... just buy those used Wharfedale tops/ NJD subs which Sapphire has offered and use instead of my existing setup..... but of course that is 4x 15" drivers instead of the 2x18 + 4x15 I currently have.... does that help solve the problem if it is a matter of 'too many big speakers' as someone already suggested?




hmmmmm...... :confused:

Richard I can only tell you on one of the 3 occasions I used those together it was a large room with about 300 people it worked very well indeed .

- - - Updated - - -



or.... just buy those used Wharfedale tops/ NJD subs which Sapphire has offered and use instead of my existing setup..... but of course that is 4x 15" drivers instead of the 2x18 + 4x15 I currently have.... does that help solve the problem if it is a matter of 'too many big speakers' as someone already suggested?




hmmmmm...... :confused:

Richard I can only tell you on one of the 3 occasions I used those together it was a large room with about 300 people it worked very well indeed .

Did you see that echo

[dicky]

I'm not disputing that sapphire

On my old setup (back in the 80s) we had 2 fullrange cabs with single 15" drivers and 2x piezo horns per cab plus two very large marshall bass reflex bins (I'm sure they were more than 18" drivers) and they sounded awesome together.

I've heard the Wharfdale Mk II with the matching subs as I said and really liked the punchy sound (and that is 4 x 15 drivers + horns too)

I was just picking up on someone above suggested my problem of woolly sound is caused by 'too many large sized speaker drivers' and that has me confused now


Rich

[DJColsie]

Personally, I have moved away from 15" drivers which I started with.

I found that there was a big drop off in level in the frequencies around the crossover, ie at the top end of the main driver range and the bottom of the compression driver range. This meant a big drop off the the detail and quality of vocals and mids although you had a generally warm sound. Also with the bigger cones being slower moving I felt the sound was a bit laboured.

I wanted a faster, more detailed and expressive sound so switched to 12" drivers which I am very happy with. Indeed my next purchase is a pair of even lighter 10" cabinets for use as back up and smaller/upstairs venues. I think RCF 710as are the order of the day.

Like Daryll, I use 12" subs, RCF 702as.

Presently, some gigs I just use tops (RCF HD12as), sometimes 2 tops and one sub and sometimes 2 tops and 2 subs.

[Excalibur]

Are these (http://www.kam.co.uk/index.php?action=product&product_id=294) your main cabs? Are you driving them with the Crown amp?

Perceived wisdom is that your subs should run at twice the power of your tops. Reason being that the low notes require the greatest power to reproduce. If I've understood yours correctly, you're running the opposite of that.

If these (http://qtx.avsl.com/product/170.750UK) are your subs, you're going to struggle to achieve the desired effect. How does it sound with just the KAM cabs in use?

If what I've found is what you're using, then I'd have to use the time honoured phrase: " If I were going there, I wouldn't start from here. "

Would I suggest binning everything you've got? No. I'd say the biggest improvement would come from swapping the QTX for some cabs rated nearer 500w RMS, and running them from the Pulse. That would balance things up much more. Can you find anyone near you with some subs around that spec, so you could have a Pick'n'mix?

Before I rushed out to spend money, I'd see what I could achieve with a spot of testing. Listen before you buy.

AHA!! The lightbulb moment. Coalville. It's a Sunday in February, ( Don't know which one, so keep an eye open ) and the best way you can find to improve your PA. There will be almost every size and make of cab there, and folk will do their best to help you. You'll be able to hear other rigs, and see what happens when you add diofferent kit to what you've got. I've got some passive subs which might be well worth sticking under your tops.

[dicky]

The KAM dual 15s are my main cabs and I am running them from the Crown

The QTX 18s are the subs and I am running them from the W Audio 1300

I have tried running the KAM Dual 15s from the W Audio on their own but for some reason they did sounded worse.

I haven't tried swapping the two amps though

I get plenty of bass with the W Audio driving the QTX - can feel it vibrating the stage and it does not distort

These QTX were from a place in Burton who refurbs speakers - they have Citronic Drivers and a lot of reinforcement to the woodwork in their carpentry workshop as he showed me what they do to them

I am not intending to spend any money just yet (did have a nosy on ebay though and currently can get a pair of JBL JRX 125 Speakers second hand from not far away for £380 but that would be a kinda straight 'like for like' swap with the KAM215s i have and would only improve things if the source of the problem is the fact the KAMs are simply 'a bit rubbish' something I suspect from the low price I paid. However if I was convinced here it was a good purchase and big upgrade I could be tempted.....

I'm determined to try your suggestion of some 12" tops first (If I can borrow some locally)

Looking for passive speakers as I already have the amps, Mackie seem to be pretty much all active - did find some second hand pair of Mackie C300Z 12" 300W Passive on ebay for £416, no idea if they are any good for that price as I never heard any

The RCFs also recommended are also Actives yes? Didn't notice any passive RCF on ebay

What's this about Coalville in February then? That's not far from me :)

Rich

[Excalibur]

The KAM dual 15s are my main cabs and I am running them from the Crown

The QTX 18s are the subs and I am running them from the W Audio 1300

I have tried running the KAM Dual 15s from the W Audio on their own but for some reason they did sounded worse.

I haven't tried swapping the two amps though
For heavens sake, please don't. That Crown's a bit big for the QTX.



What's this about Coalville in February then? That's not far from me :)

Rich

What's this? (http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?39440-Coalville-Meetup-2013-Free-entry-Free-to-take-part-Great-to-socialise-)&highlight=COALVILLE) Well only the one day a year when we put aside our egos and eschew the phrase " mine's bigger than yours ".
Further reading: 2013 (http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?40074-Coalville-Speaker-Showdown&highlight=COALVILLE)
2012 (http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?37156-Impressions-from-Coalville&highlight=COALVILLE)


And yes, I know it's not far from you. That's why I suggested it. :D:D Load your motor up with kit, and come and have a play. It'll be well worth it.

Sunday 8th February, Charnwood arms, Coalville. facebook page. (https://www.facebook.com/events/562502223895335/)

[dicky]

OMG!!!! See you all there!!

No seriously I can't wait to meet some of you guys and pick your brains (it won't hurt honestly) and hopefully get this lot sorted :)

Do I have to book in or something?

Rich

[Excalibur]

Do I have to book in or something?

Rich
Ahem. Assuming you're on Faceache, the link kindly provided by the white haired old git should tell you all you need to know.




Sunday 8th February, Charnwood arms, Coalville. facebook page. (https://www.facebook.com/events/562502223895335/)

If you're not, then email James and the crew at [email protected] and let him know you wish to bring your system. Let him know what it is, so that he doesn't get twelve rigs with RCF 312s 0ver 705s. :D I feel however, that your rig will be unique. ;)

[DJ Jules]

You've hit on a classic problem with lower end speakers. When I bought my RCF's I did a side by side test between a budget QTX set up and the RCF's and the difference in how the mid's and highs are reproduced is incredible.


I am not intending to spend any money just yet (did have a nosy on ebay though and currently can get a pair of JBL JRX 125 Speakers second hand from not far away for £380 but that would be a kinda straight 'like for like' swap with the KAM215s i have and would only improve things if the source of the problem is the fact the KAMs are simply 'a bit rubbish' something I suspect from the low price I paid. However if I was convinced here it was a good purchase and big upgrade I could be tempted.....

You're not going to get anything better with the JBL's - they might possibly even be worse. The 125's mentioned above are still at the budget end of the market and I'm trying to convince a local club to dump theirs and switch to 4 x 12" cabs for exactly the same reason as you. When they're cranked up loud the mid's (those classic 3-4Khz frequencies where our ears are most sensitive due to resonance in the ear canal) are sharp and painful to listen to. These are currently sat on top of Peavey 18" subs and these do a grand job (though I think the drivers are wearing out after being pushed to their limits twice a week for 3yrs+).

I've been working to replace the speakers in the club to get them to sound sweeter. I've been looking at something like the Mackie C200's, C300's, Peavey PR12's or possibly even passive RCF, EV or Yamaha. I've also been wondering about multiples of smaller cabs with 6" drivers around the venue (obviously not an option for mobile - unless in a line array!)

Julian

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I haven't heard the QTX speakers you have but I would seriously doubt that the JBL's would be worse than them (no disrespect to DJ Jules). Each to their own and all that.
Yes, they can be a bit top / mid end when they are cranked up but it's worth tweaking the EQ on the mixer. They are large cabinets and quite heavy too so you need a van to transport them. Like I said, when they are paired up with some subs, it's a pretty powerful sound system that is also very reliable.
As already mentioned, the Crown amp you have would be too much for the QTX speakers I agree. However, when I bought the JBL's, the Crown series of amplifiers was recommended to me. I bought a Crown XLS 802 and it's plenty.
I don't use them all the time but I am glad I have them as I can mix and match. For example: The place I did on Christmas Eve and Boxing Day (back there on New Years Eve), has 2 bars. I generally use the JBL's and Crown amp in one bar and then connect the Mackies via the booth output so that they can go in the other bar and it works well.

[DJ Jules]

I haven't heard the QTX speakers you have but I would seriously doubt that the JBL's would be worse than them (no disrespect to DJ Jules). Each to their own and all that.

QTX's are the bass bin's, he's got Kam's on top with the same twin driver set up as the JBL125's, so there is probably very little difference between the Kam speakers and the JBL's.

I used to own a pair of JRX115's and prior to that a pair of Prosound and in my opinion there was very little difference between the JBL's and the Prosound pair in terms of quality (though the JBL's can admittedly deal with far more power and produce much higher SPL's).

I just find the JBL's really harsh and have do some heavy tweaking of EQ to make them passable, but as you say - each to their own...

[Shakermaker Promotions]

That was the word I was looking for - 'harsh'. I've said it myself at times that the JBL's can sound harsh. It's just a bit of tweaking the EQ that's needed as you say.

[SamV]

The JRX are in a different league to the KAMs when stock. Infact the only thing wrong with them is the HF unit, replace that with something decent (mine are running Beyma CP350Tis) and then they can run with the best of them, they sound almost as good as my Nexo PS15r2s.

Not all dual 15s are the same. I say this as someone who started off with the Kams many many years ago.

As for the initial question, and excuse me if I've missed something, but those QTX subs shouldn't be crossed over much higher than 90hz. On your crossover, I would run them 45-90hz, and then the tops from 80hz to 20khz. You many need to balance the levels in regards to sensitivities.

It's also worth checking that all the drivers are wired in phase, ie + is outward motion. I've seen a lot of stuff that is wired wrong and when stuff is out of phase you get lots of muffles and missing frequencies.

[DJ Jules]

The JRX are in a different league to the KAMs when stock.

I'm still not convinced on that... they're in the same ball park price wise as well. With an uprated HF unit (as below) they may be a different


Infact the only thing wrong with them is the HF unit, replace that with something decent (mine are running Beyma CP350Tis) and then they can run with the best of them, they sound almost as good as my Nexo PS15r2s.

Thanks for the tip on the JBL's, I suspected that the HF horn was the issue. Going off topic a little here, but do you have any other recommendations for HF units as the Beyma drivers aren't available any more?

Julian

[Daryll]

here you are..

http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=compression_drivers

Cheers

[SamV]

Any 1.5" decent screwfit should do.

And yes they do sound miles better, as I said, I own both, had them side by side in my living room for a few years. It's only recently that I've upgraded them.

[dicky]

I've got a gig on tonight so had my rig setup for the first time since Boxing day

I have discovered a couple of things. Firstly the CX23 Active crossover seems to have a fault as it only feeds very high frequencies out of the High output on one channel - no matter what you set the crossover point to. I have not had time to thoroughly investigate this yet. It didn't actually cost me anything so if I need to replace it with a new one it is no loss really.

So for now I am back to feeding the 18" subs from the mixer booth output, through the low output of the CX23 crossover, and the W Audio Amp

The KAM ZP215 main cabs from the mixer master output and the Crown Amp

The other thing I have realised is the piezo horn in one of the KAM ZP215 works but the other one doesn't making that cab sound muffled

This might a big part of my problem all along, I don't know when it actually packed up.

I'll get away with it tonight as it is a bit of an odd shaped room and one speaker stack is offset up a corner so it sounds reasonably acceptable with the fully working ZP215 cab pointing into the main room area

Ii could be something simple (bad connection in the speaker) or maybe the peizo horn has given up. I don't think you can actually blow these up by over driving them can you?

If it does turn out to be a faulty peizo horn then am I right to assume the advice in the above couple of posts applies to me - I should replace both of the horns with something better even though the speakers are still under warranty? I'm not sure how one of those 'compression driivers' would fit where the peizo horn is (as they seem to be round and this is an oblong horn thing) but hopefully this will come clearer tio me once I get inside the speaker cab.

The horns in my cab are like in this picture of the ZP215 http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/dj-equipment/dj-speakers/kam-zp215-400w-3-way-full-range-speakers_1.htm?gclid=COPGn-PUm8MCFSbHtAodKX4AYw



Rich

[Nakatomi]

Like any other speaker, too much power for too long is bad.

If anything, I think piezos are more forgiving than moving coil drivers for having distortion based harmonics whacked into the back of them but still, putting too much power into them will make them heat up & fail before their time.

[SamV]

Compression drivers will require a crossover unit, piezos just tend to have a cap. I'd try get them replaced under warranty.

Also check if the crossover unit has a x100/1000 button on the back.

[Excalibur]

Few quick thoughts, the advice given on the HF units is good. Replace them both with identical units, should be a simple job. Might cost you all of a tenner. :) Assuming they're standard screw thread units, it's a doddle.

Re the active crossover, your subs have built in crossovers, according to what I found. As you're used to running the tops full range, just feed the bins from one output, and the tops from another. One link less in the chain.

I'm most concerned about the power of your amps against the ratings of your cabs. The W Audio is just about as big as you'd want to put on those subs, and the crown is just way too big for the tops.

Replace the piezos, ditch the crossover, and see how you go.

[dicky]

Well we certainly made some sound last night (rocked the place TBH) and didn't blow anything up

The venue isn't massive though - about 70-80 people

I'll go and pick my gear up in the next hour and bring the ZP215s down to the house so I can look to see what went wrong with the piezo horn

I'll bring the 19" rack down as well so I can figure out in the cool light of day if the CX23 does have a problem or not.

Rich
PS - Peter thanks for your informative PM, will have a look into some of your recommendations

[dicky]

OK got the speaker cabs here at the house, didn't do the obvious thing and make a note of which was the faulty speaker as that would have been too easy and anyway it should be fairly obvious on a test meter..... so I thought

These piezo horns both read OC on my test meter - even on highest resistance range. I actually expected to hear a click as well if I put the meter onto 'diode test' setting as this sends a few mA through the test device, but I don't

Can I do a simple test on the horns without connecting all the PA up, which means me bringing quite a lot of gear back to the house. I have all the usual test kit you would find in an electronics workshop.

The horns have a threaded plastic horn extension with a screw on driver on the back and seem quite inexpensively made and unbranded as far as I can tell, but I cant physically get one out of the cab to takes some pics unless I take out the top 15" speaker first.

Rich

[Excalibur]

Cab disassembly can be an interesting pastime. ;) If you reply to the missed call on your mobile, maybe I can help.

[dicky]

Thanks Peter for the informative chat

Having gotten it out of the cab the Piezo horn driver looks to be this one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Piezo-Horn-Driver-Heavey-Duty-Tweeter-Soundlab-QTX-Skytec-Kam-Intimidation-PRO-/261728863255?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speakers_Monitor&hash=item3cf0418417

As per advice I also ordered a couple of these (or very similar) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DJ-Tweeter-Array/251251622118?_trksid=p5713.c100041.m2061&_trkparms=aid%3D333008%26algo%3DRIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D28722%26meid%3D928b8c31ffbb479ab31f366f2947 5eed%26pid%3D100041%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D9%26sd%3D1813 75615131 but got them for £16 each as someone had them on offer (I got the last two available) :)

Actually putting those on top of the main cabs may also help me hear my PA a bit more clearly when behind the booth - I often have to guess how much top end frequency I am pushing out

Thanks for the advice - members like yourself are undoubtably what make this forum a great place to be

Rich

[Excalibur]

Thanks Peter for the informative chat

Thanks for the advice - members like yourself are undoubtably what make this forum a great place to be

Rich

:o:o:o:o
Seriously, I've had so much invaluable help on here that it seems only fair to pass on what I can to others. I think I still owe many forum members an immense amount.

Indeed, this is a great place to be. As a rule, the advice given here always seems better than other places.

[dicky]

It's actually these ones I got cheap for £16 each - there are some more listed but they all seem to be in ones - so you have to find a couple of listings if you want a pair

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cheap-RCL-Add-on-Tweeter-Box-Speaker-100W-/111278111288?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item19e8b13a38


Now where is that likes/rep button? someone round here deserves some ;)

[dicky]

Compression drivers will require a crossover unit, piezos just tend to have a cap. I'd try get them replaced under warranty.

Also check if the crossover unit has a x100/1000 button on the back.


Having gotten a torch and peered into the depths of my 19" cabinet, the CX23 does indeed have buttons on the back marked 'Mid-High x1 x10' for each channel - and one was set to x1 and the other set to x10 :rolleyes:


More 'rep' required me thinks - is there a button for that here?

Ordered some replacement piezos as it would cost me more to return the speakers under warranty (got them mail order) so not worth the bother for a few quid.

[dicky]

Guys - is there some sort of secret technique to get the speaker grills back on after replacing the horn?

They fit in narrow slots down the sides of the speakers, and are held in place with three screws across the top and bottom plus one in the centre, and came off without too much difficulty.

I can get one edge in the slot (either edge) but flexing the grill sufficiently to get the other side into the slot is proving to be somewhere between infuriating and impossible, not to mention harsh on the fingers!

Honestly the only way I can see to get them back on would be to glue/screw some narrow wooden battons down each inside edge of the speaker cab, cut the grill about 1cm narrower and screw it back on down both sides as well as top/bottom

Am I doing something wrong here?

Rich

[Excalibur]

Cab disassembly can be an interesting pastime. ;)

:whistle:


Guys - is there some sort of secret technique to get the speaker grills back on after replacing the horn?
Am I doing something wrong here?

Rich

I refer my honourable friend to my quote above. Reassembly can be like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Sorry I have no guaranteed answers, but I know what you're up against.

[dicky]

Well in that case then I'm all for making a few little mods as described above to make maintenance easier in future

Rich