PAT Testing myths

[Andy P]

When I started up Djing around a 18 months ago there seemed to be a lot of weight put on getting your gear PAT tested. Most accreditation marks want this, most DJs advertise this, I was told that clubs ask for this. Luckily a mate at work is an IEE qualified electrician so came along with his tester and done all my gear for me, better still he did it gratis for a favor Id previously done him.

After the year was up I looked into it again and found that it wasn’t that expensive to go and get trained as a PAT tester myself. I worked out that if I could do mine and a couple of local djs gear I could make the money back in a year without breaking a sweat – good business sense.

On the course and since I’ve learned there are no HSE regulations that impose PAT testing or give a frequency. PAT testers vastly overcharge in many cases and have never came across a club that has even asked about my equipment never mind check the PAT labels.

It seems that over the years very unscrupulous businesses have been scaremongering about HSE requirements and conning people into thinking that PAT testing is a necessity. The only stipulation is that a competent person regularly inspects electrical appliances to see if they are fit for use.

So what are your feelings on this myth of PAT testing?

[Benny Smyth]

When I started up Djing around a 18 months ago there seemed to be a lot of weight put on getting your gear PAT tested. Most accreditation marks want this, most DJs advertise this, I was told that clubs ask for this. Luckily a mate at work is an IEE qualified electrician so came along with his tester and done all my gear for me, better still he did it gratis for a favor Id previously done him.

After the year was up I looked into it again and found that it wasn’t that expensive to go and get trained as a PAT tester myself. I worked out that if I could do mine and a couple of local djs gear I could make the money back in a year without breaking a sweat – good business sense.

On the course and since I’ve learned there are no HSE regulations that impose PAT testing or give a frequency. PAT testers vastly overcharge in many cases and have never came across a club that has even asked about my equipment never mind check the PAT labels.

It seems that over the years very unscrupulous businesses have been scaremongering about HSE requirements and conning people into thinking that PAT testing is a necessity. The only stipulation is that a competent person regularly inspects electrical appliances to see if they are fit for use.

So what are your feelings on this myth of PAT testing?

Depends what you mean by a 'myth'.

You are right, there are no legal requirements to have any of your electrical equipment PAT tested, same as there is no legal requirement for you to have Public Liability Insurance.

However...

Should the worst come to the worst, one of your lights explodes and the venue burns down, you will need to provide evidence that you have taken all the reasonable steps that you could to ensure that you did your best to prevent that from happening in the first place. And the most widely accepted form of proof?

A PAT test certificate.

Although the burden doesn't end there. You still need to regularly inspect your gear anyway for the obvious stuff.

Also, I think I am right in thinking that a lot of venues require proof of PAT & PLI, otherwise it voids their own insurances.

I've said it before: when it comes to venues, in general, PAT and PLI are a box ticking exercise for people who don't understand it, but good luck to anyone that doesn't have it if needed.

[funkymook]

When I started up Djing around a 18 months ago there seemed to be a lot of weight put on getting your gear PAT tested. Most accreditation marks want this, most DJs advertise this, I was told that clubs ask for this. Luckily a mate at work is an IEE qualified electrician so came along with his tester and done all my gear for me, better still he did it gratis for a favor Id previously done him.

After the year was up I looked into it again and found that it wasn’t that expensive to go and get trained as a PAT tester myself. I worked out that if I could do mine and a couple of local djs gear I could make the money back in a year without breaking a sweat – good business sense.

On the course and since I’ve learned there are no HSE regulations that impose PAT testing or give a frequency. PAT testers vastly overcharge in many cases and have never came across a club that has even asked about my equipment never mind check the PAT labels.

It seems that over the years very unscrupulous businesses have been scaremongering about HSE requirements and conning people into thinking that PAT testing is a necessity. The only stipulation is that a competent person regularly inspects electrical appliances to see if they are fit for use.

So what are your feelings on this myth of PAT testing?

It’s common knowledge it’s not a legal requirement.

Everybody knows it’s a bit like an MOT - can be fine when you leave the garage but breakdown the day after.

It’s probably the best way of satisfying an insurance company that you’ve taken due care, your PLI may be invalid if you can’t show this.

Some venues insist on it because they also need to show due diligence to their insurers. More fool the venues that don’t check.

I’ve never been overcharged for a PAT test considering the time it took, it was done on-site and the experience of the tester - what do you consider a fair price for say 50 items?

[Excalibur]

After the year was up I looked into it again and found that it wasn’t that expensive to go and get trained as a PAT tester myself. I worked out that if I could do mine and a couple of local djs gear I could make the money back in a year without breaking a sweat – good business sense.


I looked into it also. Since my annual PAT testing charge is only nominally more than the yearly calibration fee for the tester, abd I'd have to buy the tester as well, for me it didn't make economic sense. Also, although I've been messing about with electricity for donkey's years, the man who tests my kit knows much more than I do, and that alone makes it worth using him. Added to which, the day is always fun and educational when Dave comes round.

So, for me, it's not economic sense to do my own, especially when you consider the next can of worms.




Should the worst come to the worst, one of your lights explodes and the venue burns down, you will need to provide evidence that you have taken all the reasonable steps that you could to ensure that you did your best to prevent that from happening in the first place. .

That's not the worst outcome, Benny. That's when one of somebody else's lights that you tested bursts into flames, and burns down the venue. His PLI will cover him ( assuming he's done his regular visual checks, etc ) but then his PLI providers will come after you.

Now, this particular topic has nearly caused bloodshed, but in the opinion of many well respected folk in this game, you would be wise to have PLI for your PAT testing, in case it's alleged that you made a mistake in testing that light. Could be costly.

In the event of something going wrong, I'd feel a lot more confident having my kit tested by a fully insured, fully qualified professional, as against one of my mates who had done a three day course ( or whatever it is ), had a cheap tester, and no insurance.

[Andy P]

I'm sure most of you will have prepared a method statement, as part of this you will no doubt carry out visual checks for damage. This is just as good as any PAT test especially if your keeping a regular log of it.

I'm not getting down on PAT testing after I am one now, its more I've had my eyes opened a little. As for a price I will charge an hourly rate or around what I charge for DJing. I did my stuff in just over an hour, it takes longer to fill out the register.

Ive still yet to see any insurance policy that mentions PAT testing as a requirement however.

[Andy P]

Now, this particular topic has nearly caused bloodshed, but in the opinion of many well respected folk in this game, you would be wise to have PLI for your PAT testing, in case it's alleged that you made a mistake in testing that light. Could be costly.

In the event of something going wrong, I'd feel a lot more confident having my kit tested by a fully insured, fully qualified professional, as against one of my mates who had done a three day course ( or whatever it is ), had a cheap tester, and no insurance.

Im not sure I will be making a business out of PAT testing yet and if I do much the same as DJing i'll get insured up front. They discuss on the course the situation above and much like an MOT you are not responsible for what happens to the equipment once it has left your view as just about anything can happen to it - you are saying that at X date and X time when inspected the item passed.

You can do earth bond tests without a PAT test meter they are just an easy solution for ticking boxes. I do have 15 years experience in telecoms engineering so I consider myself to have a background in testing and electronics. But I am enjoying hearing peoples views on this topic.

[Shaun]

A few of the nicer venues in the city have insisted on copies of my PAT, as well as all the local run council halls (and schools). For the cost (free in my case) it makes no sense not to have it.

[musicology]

I think it's all cobblers but venues are asking for PLI and PAT (very rarely tho') so it's just easy to get a local guy to do it for me. He only charges about £60 so that's very little for a year and PLI is peanuts from MDJN. No big deal and it just makes life easier.

[Andy P]

Don't get me wrong, i've been tested from day one and intend to continue with this. For me too its now free going forwards.
I've also taken the time to do method statements, complaints processes, full terms and conditions, contracts etc. I do see it as being an expectation of the job and i like to comply.

Personally if I was a hotel or venue owner i'd be getting a manager to ensure that contractors like DJs were setting up safely and securely instead of relying on a piece of paper that could be 11 months old.

I've also not actually used any of my gear for more than a year yet due to upgrading - now I suspect in time this will change but do you also get all of your new gear tested or wait till the next PAT session?


I think it's all cobblers but venues are asking for PLI and PAT (very rarely tho') so it's just easy to get a local guy to do it for me. He only charges about £60 so that's very little for a year and PLI is peanuts from MDJN. No big deal and it just makes life easier.

Indeed - its not costing you much more then £100 a year, I bet you spend far more on advertising.

[funkymook]

I think a lot of DJs wouldn’t bother with PLI or PAT if venues didn’t insist on them, they’d happily go out uninsured and with untested electrical equipment.

The relatively cheap cost doesn’t help the industry, it’s a shame they're not 20 times more expensive and a legal requirement - that’d get rid of a few cowboys.

[Les Brock]

What gets me....

You provide the venue with your PAT, PLI etc etc and then have to plug said equipment into sometimes the most dodgy flippin socket going :Censored:, sometime with no RCD :mad:(as required by BS7671 Wiring Regs) no doubt with no EICR in place (Electrical Installation Condition Report) and if you ask if the have one they get right royaly disgruntled ;)

I always carry an RCD or 3, and I test the socket for earth loop and RCD Test the socket if it has one..... and record it all, bit OTT but only takes me a few mins and then I'm happy not only is my stuff safe, so is the venues supply :rolleyes:

but then I am a sparks :p

Regards

Les

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Life insurance isn't a legal obligation either but good luck having the house pass on to your kids if you cop it and still owe the bank money...

For what it costs, it just makes sense - some venues do ask for it - do you want to be the guy who ruined someone's wedding because you didn't have £50 worth of PAT testing done on your gear?

And whether the insurance for your PLI has it wrote down or not, the first thing they'll do in a claim is - are you PAT tested? No, OK good luck with the court case.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

I think a lot of DJs wouldn’t bother with PLI or PAT if venues didn’t insist on them, they’d happily go out uninsured and with untested electrical equipment.

The relatively cheap cost doesn’t help the industry, it’s a shame they're not 20 times more expensive and a legal requirement - that’d get rid of a few cowboys.

I've just suggested on a FB forum that waxes lyrical about upping standards across the industry that having to provide proof of HMRC returns (scan of a headed letter with your address on it for example) would get rid of swathes of the cowboys in one fell swoop.

Won't happen though because for every guy doing it legit and to a decent standard there's another 10 cutting corners left, right and centre.

[musicology]

I think a lot of DJs wouldn’t bother with PLI or PAT if venues didn’t insist on them, they’d happily go out uninsured and with untested electrical equipment.


We have managed perfectly well for the last 40 years and more without the latest bureaucracy! :shrug:

[funkymook]

We have managed perfectly well for the last 40 years and more without the latest bureaucracy! :shrug:

Insurance is like that, no one likes paying it, but they’re really glad they did if they ever need it.

[dicky]

I think a lot of DJs wouldn’t bother with PLI or PAT if venues didn’t insist on them


???

As most of you probably know already I work within the pub trade supplying satellite and AV systems in my day business as well as now DJing at night so I know that trade pretty well to be honest.

What suprises me is this particular quote..... as I have not yet ever (ok it's only been a couple of months in DJing but I also refer to my AV equipment business of many years) been asked for proof of either and I have now chatted with quite a lot of publicans and venue owners around the city in order to drum up more business regards DJing and saying that, in stating 'I have PAT and PLI so that's why I want to charge a bit more' not one of them considered this a relevant factor, let alone a bonus or reason and most certainly not a requirement, to book me or not,as the case may be.

Mostly I seem to be booked for having more flashing lights and a bigger PA than the £80 per night DJ brigade but I also believe (or at least hope) it is something to do with musical knowledge too ;)

But it is definitely nothing to do with PAT and PLI

Rich

[DazzyD]

The vast majority of pubs and WMCs won't bother asking for PAT/PLI. However, move on to the market of high-end hotels, stately homes-type venues, posher sports clubs venues, etc and this situation changes. I did an engagement party in a sports club in Teeside a few years ago. I asked the client if there was anything the venue needed from me and the answer came back no, everything is fine. We got there, started to set up and the manager came over and said he needed to see our PAT certificate. We showed him PAT and PLI. So, for the couple, they were lucky we were tested, insured and carried the documents with us as, if we couldn't produce them, we weren't going to get to play that night! It was a simple as that.

[ukpartydj]

PLI makes sense, PAT if it disappeared in would make absolute no impact I believe.

The only thing that has ever failed of my equipment is a smoke machine that leaked which I was going to throw out but thought I'd test it first. A cracked plug socket casing even passed because I couldn't get a finger in the socket! It's stupid, it makes me angry that it exists... Also annoys me that my tester puts "retest in 12 months"... How about I retest it when I fancy as there is absolutely no rules as to when it should be tested.!

[Andy P]

Funnily all my surge protectors fail on my PAT machine. The surge protection voltage must be under 500v which is what my tester runs at.

[yourdj]

That's not the worst outcome, Benny. That's when one of somebody else's lights that you tested bursts into flames, and burns down the venue. His PLI will cover him ( assuming he's done his regular visual checks, etc ) but then his PLI providers will come after you.

I have always wondered that wither other DJ's doing other peoples lights etc.
I do wonder how many DIY bodge jobs there were before PLI was in force as an industry standard.
Even I had several extensions wired the wrong way and did not know about it. A friend did it.
Looking at the spaghetti junctions and DIY relays I can see why it has become popular.

I have been asked on a number of occasions for a PAT cert as well as PLI and its getting more frequent now.

For £50 a year for piece of mind that everything is earthed and wired properly, so for 0.1% of my gross income I am covered if:

- Anything catches fire
- someone get electrocuted
- electrics burn out leaving the marque in darkness (and me liable for a ruined wedding)
- etc. etc.

:)

[Imagine]

To be honest when I first started back just over a year ago....I didn't see the point (loads of other people don't bother....why should I).

Then the penny dropped. I do a lot of kid's parties for instance (think snow machine, bubble machine).....kids love to touch them even though they're told to leave them alone. What would happen if one of those machines developed a fault and the case went live? (doesn't bear thinking about).

OK, PAT is only valid on the day it's done, but at least I would hope it would show up any sign of something potentially going wrong (my PAT tester is a neighbour and checks everything REALLY thoroughly during the test). At least it's a sort of peace of mind.

Insurance...mine doesn't mention it directly, but does say something about ensuring that I take all reasonable precautions to ensure safety....and there's their get out clause if something goes belly up!

The only big problem I have is for stuff that I buy between tests. A lot of the online retailers (or indeed bricks and mortar stores I go to) don't PAT test before sending out and don't have the service. My PAT tester costs a minimum of £60 to test (you get something like 80 items in that cost), so mid term tests are expensive. He's also reluctant to do them as, in his words, "so long as it's under warantee and CE stamped then it doesn't actually require testing". Here's the glitch....I know that stuff that comes out of the factory can fail a PAT test. BUT, as has already been said on here, it's only good for the day it was tested like an MOT.....so what do you do in those cases?

My Method Statement and Risk Assessments (yes I do those) actually mention visual checks before each event, hopefully that shows enough due diligence that I'm doing things properly for the interim equipment which has yet to be tested).

I've only been asked for proof of PAT twice in the past year (along with PLI) - it made it easier to send them over the certs and be done with it (and quite proud that I'm running the business in a manner that allows me to conform with these things). Even on those two gigs, I haven't had anyone standing over me checking gear in and out to make sure it's the stuff listed on the PAT schedule.

It's a minefield, a lot of people don't have/use it (after all...it's not a legal requirement), a lot of people are making a lot of money out of it, but at the end of the day it's another string in my bow and proves to people that I care about the condition of my kit and do things professionally.

[Reel Feeva]

The vast majority of pubs and WMCs won't bother asking for PAT/PLI. However, move on to the market of high-end hotels, stately homes-type venues, posher sports clubs venues, etc and this situation changes. I did an engagement party in a sports club in Teeside a few years ago. I asked the client if there was anything the venue needed from me and the answer came back no, everything is fine. We got there, started to set up and the manager came over and said he needed to see our PAT certificate. We showed him PAT and PLI. So, for the couple, they were lucky we were tested, insured and carried the documents with us as, if we couldn't produce them, we weren't going to get to play that night! It was a simple as that.

I have had this twice at local golf clubs in the past few months and had to sign that I have provided my proof. No proof, no play, simple as that.

In addition, I work through an agent who gives me all my Christmas party nights usually in a nice hotel, and he requires proof of PLI each year, which is a stipulation in his agreement with the venue. No proof, no play, and to be fair the money isnt wedding standard, but its reasonable and it fills all my weekends and more in December. I also get some jobs via him during the year. All in I would lose at least a couple of thousand pounds worth of work for the sake of a few pounds, not to mention the peace of mind.

I work in the insurance industry at the claims side where people are all too quick to claim where there is blame. If a punter trips over a cable not taped down, or a drunk knocks a speaker onto someone else and the person gets injured, who is going to pick up the damages and legal costs when the person sues? I am a great believer in being professional and offering a good service to the client, so if I can demonstrate that I have done everything by the book and covered all bases, then the client shouldnt have any reason to worry about the quality of my service and can have peace of mind that I am going to play at their event.