Have passive speakers had their day?

[DJ Jules]

I've been looking at helping a local venue replace it's PA on a very limited budget and it's raised a bit of a dilemma. I've been looking exclusively at passive cabs as they're looking at wall mounting the cabs near the ceiling and the environment in the place is pretty hostile (dusty, very hot in the summer and sometimes quite humid - including flying beer) so it makes sense to put the electronics somewhere safe.

Their subs are good so I've been looking at multiple cabs 12" or smaller that produce sweeter mids and highs. The budget is limited (less than £200 per cab) so it rules out most of the brands I'd trust to produce a nice sound (RCF, Mackie, higher end FBT, etc) and most of the ranges of professional cabs for installs.

I keep finding that the cabs I'm looking at come in both Active and Passive versions and the only versions available to listen to are the Active versions. My major concern is that I might make a recommendation based on the sound of the active cab, and then because of the DSP going on in the amp the passive cab sounds nothing like it (I suspect a lot of these cheaper cabs are pairing up cheaper drivers with DSP in the amp to deal with the deficiencies in the driver).

Anyone have any experience of this or able to make any recommendations for nice sounding smaller passive cabs? Should I be worried about DSP, or am I worrying un-necessarily? Would a speaker management system be able to compensate for lack of DSP? Is so, would the cheaper ones (Behringer) be up to the job or would the price tag of a capable rack negate any savings he makes on the cabs?

So far I've been looking at FBT J8's, FBT J12's, EV ELX 112's, secondhand RCF ART 300's and a few others. I've discarded the Alto TS112's after listening to them as they're not loud enough for the application (it's a club, SPL of around 124db+ at 1m is required and on paper the Alto's do this, but in practice they don't).

Help?

Julian

[DJ Jules]

I'm guessing no-one uses speaker management systems these days either? :D

Julian

[Nakatomi]

For installation work I think passives will always be the way to go for a main PA, if only from the point of view of maintenance & cabling. Mains cable is WAY cheaper than good quality screened cable ;)

I've worked in places fitted with Peavey, Bose, JBL, Ohm, EV & Turbosound. Peavey wasn't the worst sounding, by any stretch of the imagination (FWIW the 8x PPX900 driven JBL 12"s were awesome even without subs). Set up properly & adequately protected you can get a cheapish set of speakers sounding better than okay.

EDIT: Oh, and in an installation where anybody can rock up & play out, a management system will be as much about protecting the system as it is acting as crossover & time alignment ;)

[DJ Jules]

I've worked in places fitted with Peavey, Bose, JBL, Ohm, EV & Turbosound. Peavey wasn't the worst sounding, by any stretch of the imagination (FWIW the 8x PPX900 driven JBL 12"s were awesome even without subs). Set up properly & adequately protected you can get a cheapish set of speakers sounding better than okay.

That's what I'm hoping :D


EDIT: Oh, and in an installation where anybody can rock up & play out, a management system will be as much about protecting the system as it is acting as crossover & time alignment ;)

Good point :D I've had to educate a couple of DJ's about gain structure and how it's not good to set everything so that it runs into the red... Do management systems protect against a clipped signal as well (i.e. prevent driver burn out?)

Julian

[Nakatomi]

A management system has the potential to filter out harmonics caused by clipping earlier in the chain, but it won't fix the problem. The best you can really hope for is the management system limiting the absolute level going into the amplifiers.

I've never been able to fathom why redlining DJs don't turn things down until they stop sounding like crap. Maybe louder is better to them no matter if it sounds like synchronised farting. Put a good quality mixer in, that has plenty of headroom & it shouldn't be an issue.

[Andy P]

I'm not sure they have. I guess it comes down to how large a system your after and what space you have.

As a 3 speaker DJ running 3 power leads is kinda better than having a large amp to box, carry and wire. From a DR perspective its more likely for an amp to blow than 3 active speaker amps to go so I can still continue if I lose a speaker.

A bigger setup with more speakers and i'd go down the passive route.

[DJ Jules]

A management system has the potential to filter out harmonics caused by clipping earlier in the chain, but it won't fix the problem. The best you can really hope for is the management system limiting the absolute level going into the amplifiers.

Hmmm.. I wonder if it's just the good ones that do this... again his budget is going to limit his options to Behringer type units. I've read a few manuals and I haven't seen any specifically talk about this feature.


I've never been able to fathom why redlining DJs don't turn things down until they stop sounding like crap. Maybe louder is better to them no matter if it sounds like synchronised farting. Put a good quality mixer in, that has plenty of headroom & it shouldn't be an issue.

In this specific case, the DJ in question was using an all in one unit (two decks + integrated mixer) feeding into the main desk and redlining the inputs and outputs to their mixer and then running the main mixer inputs and outputs at less than 15%!

Education needed...

[Excalibur]

I'm not qualified to comment on the advanced bits like management systems, or other such, but all I'd say is that for an install of any nature, passive would be my instinctive reaction. Keep the amps where you can get to them, not twenty feet up in the air.
If you're worried about electronic trickery improving the sound of active cabs, bear in mind that it's possible to do that with amps. I've had a demonstration of this, and it's impressive. ( Don't ask what they were, cos I've forgotten )

[Nakatomi]

I think even entry level management boxes can do basic peak limiting, at least the digital ones at any rate. This is the single most important thing any install should have.

Even when I ran a mobile I put the pa through a compressor/limiter, an Alesis 3630. Cost me around 60 quid from Ebay :-)

[Nakatomi]

Here we go.. and will likely save you dosh by not having to replace blown drivers as frequently as you might without it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-DCX2496-Ultradrive-Loudspeaker-Management/dp/B000NJ3YI8

[DJ Jules]

Here we go.. and will likely save you dosh by not having to replace blown drivers as frequently as you might without it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-DCX2496-Ultradrive-Loudspeaker-Management/dp/B000NJ3YI8

Exactly the product I was looking at, though I found an ex-demo on eBay for a few quid less :D

Julian

[ckpr2]

I have just bought a Marshall amp for my guitar and for possible disco use too.
Its a combo and I am struggling with the weight of it.
It has one handle to lift about 30Kgs.
The "head" version of it is 15Kgs so I am thinking of selling the combo and just buying a head and then use a separate speaker.

[ukpartydj]

I have just bought a Marshall amp for my guitar and for possible disco use too.
Its a combo and I am struggling with the weight of it.
It has one handle to lift about 30Kgs.
The "head" version of it is 15Kgs so I am thinking of selling the combo and just buying a head and then use a separate speaker.

I used to have a Marshall TSL602, mine was in a flightcase where the bottom piece was a tray with wheels so you would never need to take it out of the flight case. I had to carry the whole thing up some stairs once by myself with the flightcase the thing must have been over 40kg. I think I stopped halfway up and down just to rest! Sad to get rid of it but I just don't play guitar anywhere near enough anymore and they take some space up!

If your amp is anything like my one was it wouldn't be suitable for disco use as they are made to be used for guitars, I don't know specifics but they don't need real low or high freq which is why mine was quite powerful at a whooping 60w!

Just thinking about my old amp makes me a little sad :(

[ckpr2]

Guitar amplifier combo's usually have special guitar speakers.
Guitar speakers usually have a limited range to suit electric guitar.
You can pay silly money for some guitar speakers £180+ for a single 12 inch 100db driver.
They tend to be very efficient over a limited frequency range.

I didn't know at the time but my first disco speakers I built myself in 1980 were guitar speakers.
They only went up to 3.5KHz. They sounded very good and were very loud.

I have an oscilloscope and signal generator so will test the Marshall amp for frequency range.
The Marshall has a clean channel which hopefully will be full audio range.
If its just electric guitar range I will have to invest in a proper disco amp.

[DJ Jules]

Guitar amplifier combo's usually have special guitar speakers.
Guitar speakers usually have a limited range to suit electric guitar.


All very relevant for the original question about a club install and signal processing :D


You can pay silly money for some guitar speakers £180+ for a single 12 inch 100db driver.

You haven't seen what some DJ's pay for their PA ;) Just to point out, in the OP on this thread, I'm talking about trying to find a way to get the cost of a single cab below £200 as the majority of brands I trust are between two and three times this kind of money.


If its just electric guitar range I will have to invest in a proper disco amp.

You really ought to do that anyway... Or buy active if you're talking about mobile, much lighter, much more efficient. Designed for the job basically.

Julian

[yourdj]

Never seen a guitar guitar amp used for "normal music" although it probably could do. I thought about getting the vintage looking battery powered marchal of Vox for ceremonies as its very retro and fits in to my venue.

I have a marshal and its 95% a piece of furniture as it never gets used, same with the guitars. :p

[ckpr2]

Never seen a guitar guitar amp used for "normal music" although it probably could do. I thought about getting the vintage looking battery powered marchal of Vox for ceremonies as its very retro and fits in to my venue.

I have a marshal and its 95% a piece of furniture as it never gets used, same with the guitars. :p

I tested the Marshall amp tonight with signal generator and scope.
It was flat up to 20KHz so is pretty much as good as a disco amplifier.
A advantage of buying a disco amp will be the price. The Marshall is 150WRMS ,cost £200 and I can get a cheap disco amp for £100 ish and it will be 1000WRMS.
However, the Marshall is stacked with digital effects, phaser echo etc.

I haven't tested the speaker but I suspect it is probably a guitar range speaker.

[dicky]

I'm not sure they have. I guess it comes down to how large a system your after and what space you have.

As a 3 speaker DJ running 3 power leads is kinda better than having a large amp to box, carry and wire. From a DR perspective its more likely for an amp to blow than 3 active speaker amps to go so I can still continue if I lose a speaker.

A bigger setup with more speakers and i'd go down the passive route.



TBH atdf - this makes no difference reliability wise

I have a Crown 21100 Amp and a W Audio 1300 running via an active crossover driving 2 bass bins and two Class D (brand not amplifier design) tops

On two occassions so far I have had to either drive all four cabs or just the tops from the W Audio (having bypassed the active crossover) and it got me out of trouble without anyone else really noticing. In fact it wouldn't really matter which amp I lost - I could still put out good quality stero sound.

Now I properly serviced the Crown - it was so full of dust and grime any amount of condensation would turn it into nasty conductive sludge and cause a 'protect' error - I have had no problems whatsoever in the last couple of months

However i am confident this setup will handle most fault situations just with a a quick rewire - same as your actives do. I also have access to a third C-Audio amp if I really have problems.

One thing I would really really love to find though is two more of the 15" Class D tops (anybody got some?) I think they are just superb old-school wooden cab speakers. Four of these plus two more reconstituted 18" QTX subs and another couple of Amps would sound bloody amazing in some very large venues and not cost a lot bang-per-buck IMHO

I think Mr Excalibur would go along with that opinion ;)


Rich

[ckpr2]

I have always used separate speakers and amplifier.
I got myself in a knot one night with cables setting up.
I powered up the amplifier and out gushed black smoke.
Turned out I had wired left channel output into right channel output and fried the amp.

[DJ Jules]

I have always used separate speakers and amplifier.
I got myself in a knot one night with cables setting up.
I powered up the amplifier and out gushed black smoke.
Turned out I had wired left channel output into right channel output and fried the amp.

I always wondered if that was possible with Speakon's (with both ends of the cable having the same connector). Obviously it is. Don't think I'll be trying that any time soon....

Quick update on where this ended up with the club in question. They bought 4x second hand RCF ART 312's (passive) and are currently using the existing Behringer crossover, Peavey UL18 subs and Crown amps. Sounds a whole lot sweeter than the JBL 125's which were in there before. Total cost ended up at £924 for 5 cabs (one spare thanks to buying an odd job lot off eBay!), wall brackets, speakon cables and wall anchors.

Julian