Alto 18" Sub

[Nakatomi]

Now, we all know nice bass can't come from small lightweight enclosures. Well, not loud nice bass anyway...

So I was thinking about the Alto 15" Sub which should in theory give a nice boost to the bottom end of my Mackies until such time as I replace them. I could go with QTX, but knowing what Rich found inside one, they ain't worth a light as actives - and they don't have an active crossover built in like the Altos do.

The TSSUB15 is juust about the right price for me at the moment, though I'd prefer a B grade one if a certain place had stock - cheaper & who cares about minor marks etc..

But.. I found a new 18" (TSSUB-18) for less than £300. Now yeah 18" beats 15" for low end extension (usually) but with that comes a bigger cabinet & more weight... 35 kilos to be exact. The 15" model is only 27 kilos. Now then...

Is 35 kilos too much for one little man? It doesn't seem like that much more than 27 kilos & I'm pretty much going to have a trolley for carting things to & fro anyway...

Do I hang on for the 15" model to come back into stock at a price I like or just say "to hell with the extra weight" & go for the 18" ?

I've also seen 2nd hand Mackie & other subs for around £350, but I have a feeling even one of them would be too much for me to cope with at 40Kg +

Your thoughts, folks?

EDIT: Yes I know I should really go somewhere & try to 'pick one up', but nowhere local seems to have any stock of Alto gear.

[rth_discos]

As lovely as the trolley is, consider how many venues actually have true step-free access from your vehicle to where you are setting up.

On a number of occasions I've come across the odd step here and there.

I've made an effort to keep each piece of equipment as light as possible - which was great for the upstairs gig I did a couple of weeks ago!

[Nakatomi]

As lovely as the trolley is, consider how many venues actually have true step-free access from your vehicle to where you are setting up.

On a number of occasions I've come across the odd step here and there.

I've made an effort to keep each piece of equipment as light as possible - which was great for the upstairs gig I did a couple of weeks ago!

Light just isn't possible on my budget unless I go with the 100W (if you're lucky) QTX type stuff. The main venue I'll be working doesn't have steps & will be a pleasurable roll in & out. In an ideal world I'd just lash out & splurge a couple of grand on a singing stick system.. but I've not got that kind of money to spend on PA yet.

[Excalibur]

I've got a pair of these. (http://www.ld-systems.com/en/series/stinger-g2-series/stinger-sub-15-g2-15-inch-passive-pa-subwoofer/)

I regard them as quite unwieldy, at 32 Kg. The active version weighs in at 39Kg. I wanted the active version, but cost and symetry prevented that. ( I could afford one active, or two passive, and I already had a humungous Studiomaster to drive the passives. )

I still needed an active sub, though, and acquired a s/h Alto 15". Now that's portable, and I'd even take it upstairs if I had to. It's never going to make the earth move though, it's reinforcement only. There are some very dubious figures flying about.

I've heard Dicky's 18" Passive QTX subs, and they definitely produce bass. Lots of it. Surprisingly effective, ( but bear in mind, they've had the cabinets tweaked, and are a lot better than " off the shelf" units.

Right, now listen up, for I'm about to commit heresy. I know how good 18" subs are, and if performance was my only criterion, I'd have them. Cost and portability are important though, so why not consider two 12" ones? I did.

Everything's a compromise. There are many correct solutions to the same problem.

[dicky]

Two 18" passive QTX like mine with a bit of carpentry and a good high power amp to drive them via an active crossover = a great deal of good low end bass for your money and they ain't heavy either (though the amp is lol)


Other than that I do have this passive 600W RMS sub sitting in my storage unit that came out of the now sadly defunct Adventures club.. It isn't very large although it is rather heavy and I also have a 650W RMS per channel amp which I am gonna get around to firing up in bridge mode on this sub over the weekend and will let you know how well it works as I may decide to part with it. HAving said that my frind CMC music may well want it

[Nakatomi]

I've got a pair of these. (http://www.ld-systems.com/en/series/stinger-g2-series/stinger-sub-15-g2-15-inch-passive-pa-subwoofer/)

I regard them as quite unwieldy, at 32 Kg. The active version weighs in at 39Kg. I wanted the active version, but cost and symetry prevented that. ( I could afford one active, or two passive, and I already had a humungous Studiomaster to drive the passives. )

I still needed an active sub, though, and acquired a s/h Alto 15". Now that's portable, and I'd even take it upstairs if I had to. It's never going to make the earth move though, it's reinforcement only. There are some very dubious figures flying about.

I've heard Dicky's 18" Passive QTX subs, and they definitely produce bass. Lots of it. Surprisingly effective, ( but bear in mind, they've had the cabinets tweaked, and are a lot better than " off the shelf" units.

Right, now listen up, for I'm about to commit heresy. I know how good 18" subs are, and if performance was my only criterion, I'd have them. Cost and portability are important though, so why not consider two 12" ones? I did.

Everything's a compromise. There are many correct solutions to the same problem.

I know you've got the stingers (been searching a fair bit) & I looked them up. Good gear, but out of my budget & probably too heavy for me for the active version.

I'd considered the 12" option but even 2x 12" Altos cost more than the 18" one I've found. Decisions, decisions.

I've heard people sing the praises of stock (as in un-modded) QTX active subs here, but I just can't see how 250W RMS (and even there I reckon they're lying) is going to be enough even taking into account the possibility they're sensitive enough. Weight wise 29 kilos is very manageable. I just can't get over the lack of real power.

If I thought for one minute I could manage a Mackie or RCF sub on my own I'd just plump for a s/h model. But at 40 kilos... nah. I need to find something that weighs 40kg & see what it's like to lift into the boot of the Focus estate.

Going passive is certainly an option, but that would involve an active crossover & amp.. and a rack to put them in. Same amount of cabling as actives, but oy the weight of a good amp..

I've already said I have reservations about whether the Alto 15" sub will actually be of any benefit (the -10dB at 45Hz thing worries me.. the SRM450 V1s of mine go almost that low by themselves (55Hz at -3dB on paper at least).

Maybe I'll be better off biding my time & waiting for a good s/h deal to land near my doorstep. There's naff all doing the rounds near me at the mo.

[Nakatomi]

Still pondering a lot... I'm veering towards http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/alto-truesonic-tssub18-active-1200w-18-inch-subwoofer-n40nx

.... which is some £30 cheaper than the same outlet selling the 15" version. Go figure! Cheaper than just about everywhere selling the 15" version too. I know, who'd have thunk it.. Booty at Maplins!?

Plus ordering it over the web, distance selling regs apply. I'll give it some more thought.

My rationale: One reasonable quality sub is gonna be better than none, and one of these alto 18" active subs is likely going to be better than 2 QTX active subs. Nothing like as good as Yamaha, RCF, FBT or even Mackie, but nothing like as expensive either. I'm not expecting this to be able to grind glass to dust with a bit of Robin S going through it.. I just want to improve my bottom end.

I plan to sell it on eventually anyway, when I get my proper PA.. this is just a 'get me on the road' bass extension idea for me Mackies.

[Andy P]

If your gonna be mobile really think about the carry.

You've seen me Im not a weakling but even a 25kg sub up a few flights of stairs and your feeling it. I'd say 6/10 clubs up here are upstairs function rooms.

The worst part is at 18" the cabinet is larger and harder to get your arms around so 35kg might feel considerably more.

I'm still to have anyone complain about the amount of bass even when Ive not used subs.

[Nakatomi]

You make a fair point Andy. I think I'll hold off the sub & buy spare tops & additional lighting instead.

[mattydj50]

For weight comparisons, pop to B&Q (other DIY retailers are available) and check out bags of cement. They weigh 25kg usually but are smaller in size than a sub would be. Not sure how much the 120 litre bags of compost weigh, but they are bigger volume wise.

[funkymook]

For weight comparisons, pop to B&Q (other DIY retailers are available) and check out bags of cement. They weigh 25kg usually but are smaller in size than a sub would be. Not sure how much the 120 litre bags of compost weigh, but they are bigger volume wise.

That’s only one aspect though - placement of handles and weight distribution makes a big difference between a comfortable lift or an awkward one.

I’ve known some heavier subs to feel lighter than others because they’re well balanced.

[Benny Smyth]

Do you ever use a roadie?

I have a pair of RCF 905a, which comes in at just over 30kg each. I have a hand truck to cart them around, but if steps become an issue then my roadie and I take a handle each and carry them in one at a time. It is certainly possible to carry one each but I'd rather work safely.

If I work in a venue where it will be too much hassle to take subs up to, then I just don't use the subs.

[Excalibur]

I’ve known some heavier subs to feel lighter than others because they’re well balanced.

Correctamundo. Same with many other things.


Do you ever use a roadie?

If I work in a venue where it will be too much hassle to take subs up to, then I just don't use the subs.

Benny, I keep seeing references to these " roadies ", but to my knowledge, they're mythical, like unicorns.

Stairs mean the big subs stay at home, simples . I may perhaps take the Alto, if I deem it necessary, and Friday night will be such an occasion, I suspect. Otherwise, it's tops only.

There is a third way. I have a W-Audio Epic rig, with ten inch tops and subs. How it produces the bass it does is a mystery, but it does. With a PV2600 driving them, it's not quiet. Mind you, as pointed out elsewhere, the amp's :Censored:ing heavy.

[Nakatomi]

Do you ever use a roadie?

I have a pair of RCF 905a, which comes in at just over 30kg each. I have a hand truck to cart them around, but if steps become an issue then my roadie and I take a handle each and carry them in one at a time. It is certainly possible to carry one each but I'd rather work safely.

If I work in a venue where it will be too much hassle to take subs up to, then I just don't use the subs.

No, although there's somebody who'd be more than willing to help me out at gigs. My son. Only problem is, he's just four years old :lol:

I've just remembered that a litre of water weighs about a kilo, give or take a bit. So 35 litres would give me an approximate weight so I can see how manageable (or not) that is for lifting in & out of the car.

Load in & out isn't going to be an issue for the vast majority of gigs in the first few months or so because I know where I'm going to be. I have the option of leaving my gear there as my boss did, but I don't trust their security. Anybody with a van could walk in & take my gear off.

On their own, the Mackies aren't bad & they can even hold their own when I play next to all but the biggest band PAs. The biggest always tend to play too loud for the number of people in the room anyway, so I'm never going to get into a loudness competition with them.

I'm still sorely tempted to buy the 18" Alto sub, but only if I can safely lift 35 kilos solo in & out of the car boot. IIRC 35 kg is about what my old black lab weighed in his final year & I managed to lift him in & out of the car tailgate okay. In an ideal world I'd use a van, and just go for a full RCF or FBT system with a roadie.. or singing sticks or what have you.. but this ain't my ideal world.

The only real obstacle I have to buying lighter kit is the cost. It'd have to be new because there's nowt going second hand - and all kinds of factors have messed my finances around this year, not least of which losing the best paid day job I've ever had.

[DJ Jules]

From what I've heard about the Alto kit, the only sub worth having is the Alto Black. I'm very suspicious about the specs on the Alto Truesonic sub (which matches my thoughts on their tops) - 1200w RMS ought to be capable of kicking out more than 123db - that's really not a lot in bass terms. I've demo'd the tops recently and on paper they should have been quite capable, but in practice they really weren't up to a lot at all.

The moral of the story - don't expect anything you buy from Maplin's to be pro quality ;)

As to alternatives, I've just hired one of these (http://www.amazon.co.uk/JBL-JRX118SP-Self-Powered-Subwoofer-crossover/dp/B0002MJCIM) for this weekend to give a bit of bottom end reinforcement and it's 40Kg on paper, and actually surprisingly easy to lift. Note that it also kicks out 123db peak from the built in 350w RMS amp - see why I'm suspicious about that Alto's specs...? :D Anyway, point being I wouldn't be too scared of 40Kg subs, they're well worth the weight.

I used to run with a pair of JBL JRX118 passive subs and JRX115 tops (not something I'd recommend doing by the way) and a 6U amp rack with an active crossover and 2x W-Audio 1300 amps. Total weight, probably about 60Kg due to the heavy construction of the rack. That was about my limit when it came to lifting and I had to be very careful how I moved that thing around (especially up/down steps) - a well balanced 40Kg should be fine for most people.

As others have said, if you're going upstairs though, it's a tops only job unless they've got a lift!

Julian

[Nakatomi]

The alto sub is 600W RMS.

It seems no matter what people say about their budget folks are always going to say "but if you spend almost a grand....". Heh.

Regarding Alto tops though, I've heard the 15" TrueSonic line & was frankly amazed how good they sounded.

No, my pa isn't going to be the best going but I'm on a tight budget

[dicky]

I honestly don't think my passive QTX 18s are as heavy as you thought Justin - will weigh one of them when I get chance this weekend

Rich

[DJ Jules]

The alto sub is 600W RMS.

Yup, you're right, they do actually declare that it's 1200w peak / 600w RMS down in the detail.


It seems no matter what people say about their budget folks are always going to say "but if you spend almost a grand....". Heh.

I didn't, did I? I've been resisting :D


Regarding Alto tops though, I've heard the 15" TrueSonic line & was frankly amazed how good they sounded.

I've got to be honest, I heard the TS112A on test (ok, 12", not the 15" version) and I was underwhelmed. For the money they're a steal (£240 - £260 a side) but I got the impression that they'd quickly run out of steam at most of the gigs I do (read that as small to medium venues with up to about 120 people). They also have a bit of a poor reputation for reliability and customer service. After listening to the TS112A, I then heard the FBT J8a's and X-Lite 12a's and both of these sounded far sweeter and far more capable than the Alto kit (despite one being only an 8" driver) - both priced around £320 a cab. Anyway, I'm drifting off topic and I know you've got your tops sorted - point being I'm not impressed by the low end Alto kit and that's based on my audition of their entry level tops.

The decision is yours.... :D Personally, I've been running on 12" tops alone for 4yrs now, and it's only now I'm really seriously considering starting to save for a decent bass bin. Biggest influence on that decision...? Larger vehicles and more storage space!

Julian

[Nakatomi]

I honestly don't think my passive QTX 18s are as heavy as you thought Justin - will weigh one of them when I get chance this weekend

Rich

I didn't think I implied I thought the QTX subs were going to be too heavy. It's more the inconvenience of having to lug around an amp & x-over in a rack that puts me off. For the money I suspect it'd be a belting solution otherwise. Assuming I've got space in the car for em that is.

[deltic]

There is a third way. I have a W-Audio Epic rig, with ten inch tops and subs. How it produces the bass it does is a mystery, but it does. With a PV2600 driving them, it's not quiet. Mind you, as pointed out elsewhere, the amp's :Censored:ing heavy.

I have it's bigger brother with twin 10"subs runs off one amp and as you know kicks like a mule.

[Excalibur]

From what I've heard about the Alto kit, the only sub worth having is the Alto Black. I'm very suspicious about the specs on the Alto Truesonic sub (which matches my thoughts on their tops) - 1200w RMS ought to be capable of kicking out more than 123db - that's really not a lot in bass terms.

Well yes, and then again, no. Like almost all manufacturers, they have a Budget range, and a "PRO" range. There's a big difference.

Julian, even the quoted 600w RMS isn't necessarily accurate. My 15" has 1200 splashed all over it, but it's only about 300 RMS, I believe.




No, my pa isn't going to be the best going but I'm on a tight budget

The limiting factor. With the proviso that relatively low cost is vital, and space is an issue, I reckon the Alto 15/18" offerings are among the least worst on the market. Also it's easy to run with just one bin, a feat which is trickier with passive kit.

There's a Behringer VQ series one at Thomann which might be worth a second look, and my choice would be the cheaper LD offering (http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_ldgt15a_sub.htm)





There is a third way. I have a W-Audio Epic rig, with ten inch tops and subs. How it produces the bass it does is a mystery, but it does. With a PV2600 driving them, it's not quiet. Mind you, as pointed out elsewhere, the amp's :Censored:ing heavy.



I have it's bigger brother with twin 10"subs runs off one amp and as you know kicks like a mule.

Indeed you do, and indeed it does. Added to which, most of the paint hasn't fallen off yours. Although I've handled it and packed it into a family estate, I can't remember how " stair friendly " it is. I seem to remember describing it as neither fish nor fowl. Too big to be truly compact, and too small for bigger gigs. Still nice though, and either of them are worth checking out.

[ckpr2]

I use a Fane Sovereign 15-600 sub.
It seems to have plenty of low end grunt.
Goes well with a full ranger with 2 * Fane Sovereign 12-250TC full rangers.