Refusing Bookings - "Discriminative"?

[Jonny Boy]

We've all probably seen news items about (mainly American) wedding/party suppliers (Cake makers and DJs) being sued for discriminating again same-sex couples. That's not something that would ever be an issue for me personally HOWEVER, reading today about the possibility of David Cameron recinding the ban on fox hunting - which is something I DO find morally distasteful - it got me thinking.

I entertained at a local Hunt's Annual Ball earlier this year, and while I felt a little uncomfortable, I decided that because - at least ostensibly - they operated within the law and foxes had not be harmed I was in enough of a grey area to continue with the booking despite my personal views. I performed for them to the best of my ability.

However, imagining ahead, if they group returned to 'traditional' blood-sport practices, my personal conscience would feel a lot more compromised. I did notice that this year the enquiry came phrased as simply a "social-group annual dinner-dance" - with me only discovering the nature of the group later on after saying the date was available and beginning the booking process.

I'd never dream to 'preach' to the hunt-master on my particular viewpoint, but really don't know how I could honestly do the job well with the personal distaste I'd be experiencing.

I suppose the same is true for others who choose not to work for other groups, such as travellers, or weddings for members of certain religious groups/cults. Is it only discrimination if one *expresses* why you're turning down work after you've agreed to do it in principle?

How would YOU legally and tactfully back out of a booking which offended your own personal moral compass?
DISCUSS.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

If it was to the point that I would feel it would impact on my ability to perform to best of my abilities then in my position I'd provide a DJ who didn't have an issue (I'm not a huge multi op but we do have 3/4 discos out on certain nights so not a massive deal).

For the sake of covering your backside it would depend if you've signed on the dotted line (our process is a signed e-contract online and deposit paid) so if prior to that then backing out isn't a huge deal. If it has been booked in then it depends on the clauses in your contract as to as and how you can back out if required.

Footnote.

I struggle to think of anything that I would have an issue with unless it was some sort of extremist group to the point I would want to back out....

[Excalibur]

Really good question. Off the top of my head I can't think of any person or organisation I wouldn't work for on a matter of principle. I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of them instantly.

I fully support anyone turning away business if their conscience says so.

Edit: Ah. I see you've started the process before being made aware of the full story. Very tricky, and probably far too complicated for me to add anything useful. Sorry.

I like the description of them as " The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible ". ;)

[Daryll]

Same sex weddings ...no problem

mixed race wedding.............no problem

even a butchers do..........no problem ( I am a veggie)

but...................any group that promotes cruelty to animals..................no

And yes , I do live in the country side , I accept that these things go on , but it does not mean i have to like it

Daryll

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Same here Daryll....exactly the same.

[funkymook]

In this scenario the Hunt group do not come under the protected characteristics as defined under The Equality Act so you can quite happily refuse to work for them on the basis that you do not support hunting.

If I was booked and then later found out it was for a group I didn’t want to work for that did not come under the protected characteristics then I’d cancel it on the basis I wouldn’t have accepted it if I had known.

[DazzyD]

Under the Equality Act, you can't discriminate against people on grounds of sexual orientation, gender, religion or age (with age being the subject which is swept under the carpet more often than the others). Fox hunting isn't covered by any of those categories so you'd be well within your rights to refuse to provide a service to a fox hunting group. Despite comments to the contrary, this really isn't a grey area. It's pretty straight-forward to be fair. The groups of people you can't discriminate against are set out in the statute books meaning it's one of the areas in law which isn't really open to the level of interpretation that other laws are.

EDIT
Martin beat me to it!!

[Jonny Boy]

Thanks for the Equalities Act clarification guys - I'd imagine disctiminating on race would also be covered?

I guess this also means I can safely bat away all those Scientologist bookings that keep cropping up... most of them are OK but that one guy, Tom, *will* keep jumping on the sofas..... ;-)

[DazzyD]

Thanks for the Equalities Act clarification guys - I'd imagine disctiminating on race would also be covered?

I guess this also means I can safely bat away all those Scientologist bookings that keep cropping up... most of them are OK but that one guy, Tom, *will* keep jumping on the sofas..... ;-)

Race is covered under the Equality Act but it goes even further with the Race Relations Acts 1965, 1976 (with multiple amendments since).

Unfortunately, Scientology was deemed a "religion" by the UK High Court in 2013 (when it decided that a religion didn't need a God after all!) so, technically, it will be covered under the Equality Act. You might want to find a better excuse for sidestepping those bookings (25th August? Aw, sorry, I'm fully booked that night. And sorry, Tom, there is no one else available that I could recommend. Sorry again! ;) )

[yourdj]

I turned down a premium booking today as they wanted a black booth and D&B, i told them i was busy - job done. Turns out my assistant got the booking anyway. :p

i generally don't do weddings that involve cheesy dance move music and offensive customers (any class of person). Pretty picky really with venues too. The only other time is when i am not suited for the event - e.g. asian wedding that want lots of obscure R&B/asian music. I have struggled at too many indian, Muslim, Mauritian, chinese etc. etc. and only really do European majority weddings now. Fine if its a 50/50 split but not 100% as i have not got a clue about music and traditions. I will always try to help someone find the right DJ though.

I had a meeting yesterday for a halloween pagan (well she is pagan anyway) wedding and she wants a lot of very obscure rock. I was very blunt with them and said I will not do this wedding, but i know a man that can, he specialises in that and will be the best person for the job.

I suggest you get a posh DJ for your fox hunting event that doesn't care about fox hunting.

If you don't like gay people, fox hunters, chavs, posh people, etc. etc. then why should you put yourself in the position of running their entertainment, don't see a problem there at all as you don't have to tell them that, people are far too uptight these days (Cue PC Shaker maker). Your definitely not in the wrong about fox hunting as thats quite a popular anti-sport and does not really have much relevance to modern society (a bit like bull fighting etc.) or countryside management (other than the social aspect). I have not seen anything relating to any negative aspects of there being more foxes. :)

On the flip side I bet its a good party though (easy too and you won't have a problem with paying one would assume 'old boy').
I do a lot of polo match balls and thats great fun. :)

[musicology]

I don't have any problem with fox hunting. It's part and parcel of the countryside and a crying shame the townies banned it in the first place. Haven't we lost quite enough of our Englishness already? Looks like it could be coming back tho'! :banana::banana:

[Benny Smyth]

A trick I use if somebody phones me for am enquiry is get as much info as I can about the event BEFORE asking the date. Then, if the gig doesn't click for me, I have that get out clause of "Oh, sorry - I'm washing my hair that night!"

The alternative is saying "No sir, I have no desire to perform at your toothless, chavtastic stoner party. In fact, other things that rank higher than performing at that event would include slamming my man berries into a car door."

[DazzyD]

A trick I use if somebody phones me for am enquiry is get as much info as I can about the event BEFORE asking the date. Then, if the gig doesn't click for me, I have that get out clause of "Oh, sorry - I'm washing my hair that night!"

The alternative is saying "No sir, I have no desire to perform at your toothless, chavtastic stoner party. In fact, other things that rank higher than performing at that event would include slamming my man berries into a car door."

And that is the key to a very successful outcome. You have to get all of the information at the enquiry stage. Without having all of the details to hand, you cannot possibly make an informed decision as to whether the event, and the client, is suitable for you or you are suitable for the client. As has been said many, many times on here and elsewhere, not everyone is your client. You are not suitable for everyone. You might think you are but you're not! Simples! :)


I don't have any problem with fox hunting. It's part and parcel of the countryside and a crying shame the townies banned it in the first place. Haven't we lost quite enough of our Englishness already? Looks like it could be coming back tho'! :banana::banana:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Evelyn Beatrice Hall, The Life of Voltaire)

[yourdj]

Hey, why not bring back coock fighting, dog fighting, bear baiting as they are traditional Georgian/medieval recreational 'pleasures' too. :p

If its the pursuit they like then i don't see why they don't bring up a deer with the dogs; set it loose and they lick it to death when they find it. i am sure they did that as my land and environment tutor told me that story (a hunter) when it was being banned. You still have the red coated riders and all the 'british' social side of it and nothing gets killed, job done :)

[TONYTIGER]

I don't have any problem with fox hunting. It's part and parcel of the countryside and a crying shame the townies banned it in the first place. Haven't we lost quite enough of our Englishness already? Looks like it could be coming back tho'! :banana::banana:

Well said,most people have not got a clue about fox hunting they just object because its a class thing,take phesant shooting it takes £ 15.00 to put a bird in the air then you blast it to bits and get a couple of quid for it whats the point but nobody objects,at least the fox is vermin ask any farmer.

[funkymook]

And back to DJ related posts please.....

[Andy P]

I got my recurve bow, out during my recent trip to Chester as it's still legal to shoot welsh people inside the walls police did not agree. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right

[Shaun]

And back to DJ related posts please.....

I agree.

Let's put an end to discussions about personal opinions on fox hunting. A DJ forum ain't the place. These kind of discussions always polarise opinions and antagonise people on both sides of the fence, so for that reason alone I'm asking that we all follow Martin's request. Cheers.

[Benny Smyth]

I agree.

Let's put an end to discussions about personal opinions on fox hunting. A DJ forum ain't the place. These kind of discussions always polarise opinions and antagonise people on both sides of the fence, so for that reason alone I'm asking that we all follow Martin's request. Cheers.

Disney and Pixar have made me warm to foxes, sharks, monsters, cars, rats and other undesirable things. We all saw the Disney version of Robin Hood. The real test is if they make a film about cold callers and make me warm towards them!

Anyway, what were we talking about again? Ah, yes. Turning down bookings. As mentioned before (and I've seen Martin bang this drum many a time), get all the info before accepting a booking. I sometimes cover a residential gig for a friend and I flat out refuse to walk in blind. Give me some details of what's going on, or I won't do it.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

If you've not confirmed the booking - not sure how you do it but in my case it would be contract signed by client, deposit paid and countersigned by me - you can easily enough back out without having to give too much of a reason.

"Sorry mate, someone's just come in and nicked your date pronto this afternoon."

my personal fave: "The Mrs is a groupon fiend and I've just noticed on my calender that your particular date has been blocked off due to some bungee jumping and cocktail master classing that she's booked."

If you've already signed you're in a bit of a stick and the best situation is probably to be honest, say you didn't realise what it was and wouldn't be able to do the best job for them, give their deposit back and wish them well. You'd need them to agree to all of that though...

[funkymook]

I did notice that this year the enquiry came phrased as simply a "social-group annual dinner-dance" - with me only discovering the nature of the group later on after saying the date was available and beginning the booking process.


If you've already signed you're in a bit of a stick and the best situation is probably to be honest, say you didn't realise what it was and wouldn't be able to do the best job for them, give their deposit back and wish them well. You'd need them to agree to all of that though...

I don’t think you’d need their agreement to cancel at all - they purposely hid (or at the very least failed to say) who the event was for and you can argue you wouldn’t have taken the booking if you had known.

[DazzyD]

I don’t think you’d need their agreement to cancel at all - they purposely hid (or at the very least failed to say) who the event was for and you can argue you wouldn’t have taken the booking if you had known.

"The client failed to disclose relevant information at the time of booking" is a pretty good defence in court.

[Excalibur]

I don’t think you’d need their agreement to cancel at all - they purposely hid (or at the very least failed to say) who the event was for and you can argue you wouldn’t have taken the booking if you had known.


"The client failed to disclose relevant information at the time of booking" is a pretty good defence in court.


Sorry lads, I disagree. As far as we know, they're a legitimate organisation indulging in a legitimate activity. If you've taken the booking, just finding out who you're working for isn't grounds to reverse out of the deal, is it? :confused:

Now here's a not unrelated one. Hotel rings you up, " can you do a wedding disco next week" ? You say yes, sign a contract, but when you turn up, it's apparent that it's a traveller wedding. Can you back out of that because you fear for your safety, and that of your kit? :confused: I'm sure it's in all our contracts that if our safety is compromised, that's game over.

[funkymook]

Sorry lads, I disagree. As far as we know, they're a legitimate organisation indulging in a legitimate activity. If you've taken the booking, just finding out who you're working for isn't grounds to reverse out of the deal, is it? :confused:

Now here's a not unrelated one. Hotel rings you up, " can you do a wedding disco next week" ? You say yes, sign a contract, but when you turn up, it's apparent that it's a traveller wedding. Can you back out of that because you fear for your safety, and that of your kit? :confused: I'm sure it's in all our contracts that if our safety is compromised, that's game over.

First instance - yes you can, the hunters aren’t protected under the Equalities Act, I can object to their pastime as much as I like, like many anti-hunt protesters do every week (as long as they keep within other laws of course).

Second instance - no you can’t, the Travelling community are protected under the act (as some recent court cases have illustrated) so in your example you would be breaking the law.

[Excalibur]

First instance - yes you can, the hunters aren’t protected under the Equalities Act, I can object to their pastime as much as I like, like many anti-hunt protesters do every week (as long as they keep within other laws of course).

Second instance - no you can’t, the Travelling community are protected under the act (as some recent court cases have illustrated) so in your example you would be breaking the law.

Now you see, as a simple little soul, that seems bum about face to me. :daft:

You can refuse to work for some folk just because they're pillocks, but can't refuse because of possible danger to you and your kit? :confused:

Hmmmmm.

[funkymook]

Now you see, as a simple little soul, that seems bum about face to me. :daft:

You can refuse to work for some folk just because they're pillocks, but can't refuse because of possible danger to you and your kit? :confused:

Hmmmmm.

No, you can’t refuse if your reason is based on who or what they are if it's covered under the Equalities act (which we’ve already discussed).

Just had a quick check and the act only covers travellers of Romany and Irish descent so you could still be able to legally refuse if they weren’t - but you’d have to be very sure of exactly who they were.

But just for a moment replace ‘traveller' with ‘black’ (and I’ve actually heard people say all black people are muggers, rapists, rioters etc so obviously there’s a possible danger to them there) or gay (some would state that seeing same sex couples together disgusts them). Are we still feeling as comfortable seeing those groups refused service anywhere?

[Excalibur]

Are we still feeling as comfortable seeing those groups refused service anywhere?
I'm not desperately comfortable seeing anyone being refused service because of who or what they are. I've worked for Travellers ( not disclosed before the event, BTW. :) ), Masons, Buffaloes, probably an Aardvark or two ( Mod note: That's just plain silly. Stop it at once. :Naughty: ), most nationalities, quite a few religions, differing sexual persuasions, why I've even worked for Yellowbellies and Lancastrians!! :eek:

I still think it's lunacy that I can refuse to work for someone because of their interests*, but not because I might be in danger of injury. ( And yes, I know that's a stereotypical view, I'm not claiming it's true in every case. The events I've done have been no more than " lively", but didn't half cause the release of some adrenaline! :) )

* Interests. Now that's the $64,000 question. Philately, needlework and Trainspotting, seem harmless enough.
Huntin' Shootin' Fishin', well we know that's possible cause for concern. I'm sure I can think of other ones which are more controversial ( given time, and I don't intend to post them here if I do. )
How abhorrent to the DJ ( or other service provider ) does it have to be, to justify refusal? That's tricky. :confused:

Devil's Advocate:
OK Martin. The hunt approaches me to do a gig for them, and when I find out, I cancel. So far , so good. But the person who made the booking is of an ethnic group, ( or religion ) differently abled, and sexual persuasion. Am I then up the creek? I'd say they had a good chance of making the case that I refused for any or all of those reasons, and not cos I don't like Hunting, wouldn't they? :confused:

[funkymook]

I'm not desperately comfortable seeing anyone being refused service because of who or what they are. I've worked for Travellers ( not disclosed before the event, BTW. :) ), Masons, Buffaloes, probably an Aardvark or two ( Mod note: That's just plain silly. Stop it at once. :Naughty: ), most nationalities, quite a few religions, differing sexual persuasions, why I've even worked for Yellowbellies and Lancastrians!! :eek:

I still think it's lunacy that I can refuse to work for someone because of their interests*, but not because I might be in danger of injury. ( And yes, I know that's a stereotypical view, I'm not claiming it's true in every case. The events I've done have been no more than " lively", but didn't half cause the release of some adrenaline! :) )

* Interests. Now that's the $64,000 question. Philately, needlework and Trainspotting, seem harmless enough.
Huntin' Shootin' Fishin', well we know that's possible cause for concern. I'm sure I can think of other ones which are more controversial ( given time, and I don't intend to post them here if I do. )
How abhorrent to the DJ ( or other service provider ) does it have to be, to justify refusal? That's tricky. :confused:


You’re still totally missing the point while also answering your own question - that’s a remarkable feat by any standard.

If you say your not going to take on the booking of a group covered in the Equality Act because of who they are then you fall foul of the act.
Your aversion to doing the travellers booking based on them being travellers (either Romany or Irish) is no different in the eyes of the law as someone refusing to work for a black or asian client because they don’t like them.

You’re also only looking at it from one scenario and from a DJ perspective - the act covers all businesses, without the Equality Act any business could refuse to serve people based solely on their colour, religion, sexual orientation etc etc. Would it be right for your local newsagent to have a sign up saying ‘no gays’? Or sections of a town being a no go areas for Jews because all the shops decided they didn’t want to serve them?

We can all pick extreme scenarios out of the hat that appear to make any law unreasonable, but there are far wider implications if you start allowing that sort of discrimination.




Devil's Advocate:
OK Martin. The hunt approaches me to do a gig for them, and when I find out, I cancel. So far , so good. But the person who made the booking is of an ethnic group, ( or religion ) differently abled, and sexual persuasion. Am I then up the creek? I'd say they had a good chance of making the case that I refused for any or all of those reasons, and not cos I don't like Hunting, wouldn't they? :confused:

Not if you dressed up as Basil Brush when you go to court....

[DazzyD]

The fact of the matter is, as a service provider, I'm well within my rights LEGALLY, to refuse to provide a service to ANYONE I like (or, perhaps, don't like!) and for whatever reason UNLESS the person falls in to one of the groups protected under the Equality Act AND my reasons for doing so are not in direct relation to that protected group (and I could prove it beyond reasonable doubt).

For example, it would be illegal for me to refuse to provide a service to a black client on the grounds that he was black. This is covered under the Race Relations Act as well as the Equality Act. However, if said client had kicked my dog to death a year earlier, and was convicted of it (thereby there's proof), then I would be entirely within my rights to refuse to provide him the service based on the fact he had killed my dog. He could play the racism card but it would be pretty easy, in this case, to prove my reasons.

Fox hunters do not fall in to any of the protected group definitions so I can LEGALLY refuse to provide a service to them and legally give the reason that I don't agree with their activities and, by providing a service to them, it would compromise by beliefs. Although, in this case, I wouldn't even need to justify my reasons for refusal.

As I said earlier, the Equality Act really is clear. There are protected groups and you cannot discriminate against people in those groups for reasons that are in direct relation to the definition of that group. Everyone else is fair game. Simples! :)

Oh, and as for travellers, as Martin pointed out, only certain travelling groups are protected under the Equalities Act. The vast majority can be treated just the same as the rest of us!

[Excalibur]

I can see I'm beaten here :whiteflag:, but I'm also :daft::daft::daft:

Don't think some of us are looking at things the same way. I'm not talking about refusing bookings because of who people are, but because I'm likely to suffer physical harm, or equipment damage.

OK, let's go a step further. I take a booking for any of the " protected " groups, and I'm intimidated physically. My contract says I can pull the plug. Is this against the law too? :confused::confused:

Like I've said countless times, I'll work for anyone who will pay me ( within some very very wide parameters ). If taking a booking puts me in danger of physical harm, I don't want to take the booking. Simples.
Sadly, by doing so, I appear to become Public Enemy No1. Ah well.

[Excalibur]

Aha!. Sexual discrimination (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6547535/Former-Master-of-the-Hunt-is-back-after-sex-change.html) if you cancel a gig from this hunt, I reckon. :D:D

[funkymook]

I can see I'm beaten here :whiteflag:, but I'm also :daft::daft::daft:

Don't think some of us are looking at things the same way. I'm not talking about refusing bookings because of who people are, but because I'm likely to suffer physical harm, or equipment damage.

OK, let's go a step further. I take a booking for any of the " protected " groups, and I'm intimidated physically. My contract says I can pull the plug. Is this against the law too? :confused::confused:

Like I've said countless times, I'll work for anyone who will pay me ( within some very very wide parameters ). If taking a booking puts me in danger of physical harm, I don't want to take the booking. Simples.
Sadly, by doing so, I appear to become Public Enemy No1. Ah well.

If you’re threatened then you can walk out - the reason you’ve done that is not because of who they are but how they've acted. Being covered under the Equality Act does not override behaving in an acceptable manner.

I get the point you're trying to make - there’s a stereotype view that all traveller parties are trouble, some also think all 18th birthdays are the same. One you can turn around and say I’m not taking your booking because of who’s attending, the other you can’t.