At what point would you get physical?

[Benny Smyth]

Last night, I had a bit of a situation. It was a great gig overall, but here's what happened:

About an hour into the night, some idiot jumped onto my sub to dance away. What I assume to be his missus was trying to get him down and my roadie rushed over to do the same. I was half way through a mix so I hadn't noticed immediately what was going on but when I did, I dumped the mix, took my headphones off, walked over and shoved him off. He went crashing to the floor and got covered in the contents of his own pint. His (I assume) missus had a look of shock on her face, but he was so drunk that he just didn't understand what happened. I then got on the mic, stopped the music and said straight to him "If you pull that :Censored: again, I will stop the music completely, pack my stuff away and you can explain to the bride and groom why their wedding day has ended early!"

He was off with his tail between his legs and I never saw him anywhere near the booth again for the rest of the night. From that point, music continued as if nothing had happened.

Now, whether I was right or wrong to just shove the guy off is in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, he had ample opportunity to get off before I came over (completely bypassing the fact that he shouldn't have gotten on it anyway). But it did make me wonder that even though we never want to be in a situation where we have to protect either ourselves or our kit, but at what point do you consider it reasonable to use proportionate force to do just that?

[Andy P]

You could be up on an assault charge over something that simple but don't let that put you off. Drunks have little respect due to their inhibitions being removed.

I would have helped him down personally and just told him alone in the first instance. But then I take many tablets each day to control my temper lol.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Annoying as it is and trust me I have zero patience for people's stupidity I think pushing the guy off wasn't the way the go. For example what if he twisted/broke his ankle on impact? got a fair few friends in attendance to back him up.

That in the cold light of a Monday morning is what I'd do, what I would actually do would depend entirely on the night itself however I'd like to think I would just cut the music and tell him to get off the sub.

[DJIanScott]

I have sympathies for both arguments. Like Deckstar above says, there were lots of witnesses who could have testified against you (welcome to America...) in the event of an injury. However, with fair warning he should have gotten down, and doorstaff would use the physical methods once all other avenues had been exhausted, but maybe pushing was a bit extreme!
Personally, I kill the music totally in situations like this.....then and only then, would I resort to smashing their face in if they continued their quest to be Bell End Of The Year!

[Benny Smyth]

From a legal standpoint, I think I'll be fine. I used reasonable and proportionate force to protect my property and no more. :beer1:

I used to be a Duty Manager in retail, and you get taught a lot about such things when tackling shoplifters and such.

[Andy P]

I spent 5 years front of house in a top Newcastle casino and getting physical with people is still a minefield even when trained and licensed. Its surprising how many celebrities you end up protecting as they mouth off to the public when hassled.

I would still go with hands as the last resort however as if it does escalate I would guess your gonna be outnumbered.

[mattydj50]

I have sympathies for both arguments. Like Deckstar above says, there were lots of witnesses who could have testified against you (welcome to America...) in the event of an injury. However, with fair warning he should have gotten down, and doorstaff would use the physical methods once all other avenues had been exhausted, but maybe pushing was a bit extreme!
Personally, I kill the music totally in situations like this.....then and only then, would I resort to smashing their face in if they continued their quest to be Bell End Of The Year!

Door staff? Quite often at weddings and private functions, especially if the bar is separate from the main function room, there won't be any venue staff in sight and it is highly unlikely to have any security staff.

My phone has speed dial to the Duty Manager's phone so if anything does kick off, I simply press "9" and ring the Duty Manager who, hopefully comes running.

[jonezyr1]

As well as being a DJ I am also licensed in the security industry and as far as the law is concerned ANY member of the public can use force in 3 circumstances. 1) to protect yourself 2) to protect others and finally the 3rd to protect PROPERTY, the force however does need to be proportionate and necessary. In your circumstances i can see your point of view, however, from what you have said The force may well have been proportionate but without asking him yourself to get down and going straight in with force may not have been necessary. Yes two other people had been asking him to get down but you hadn't. Don't get me wrong i don't blame you at all for what you did. What i would recommend to you and others in the same situation in the future is ALWAYS ask them to stop first, but in a firm way. When i was training for my license i was taught something that i will use every time (unless its an immediate threat to life) always ask them first to stop what they are doing, ie will you please get off my speaker. if they ignore or refuse then ask them "is there ANYTHING i can SAY to make you stop what you are doing". if they then ignore or refuse you can justify any force used in court as long as it's proportionate and necessary.

Basically don't just start pushing some one as it can be classed as an assault. Always exhaust your avenues before using force so you have a defence and you are then acting Legally.

[funkymook]

An overreaction I think - you weren’t being physically threatened so it wasn’t self defence.

Stopping the music, drawing attention to him and asking him to get down would’ve had the same result without any danger of retaliation from his mates (if they were so inclined) or him being injured or worse, lesser falls have resulted in fatalities, it doesn’t take much of a knock to the head.

[DazzyD]

To me, the first rule is self preservation. I've got a family to think about and they want to see me return home! When you pushed him, you could have started a large scale rumble with you right in the middle! Gear can be replaced. You can't. You could have also put your roadie in danger if his friends had joined in.

So, that's my point of view. I wouldn't get physical for the purposes of protecting gear. I can look after myself if needs be but I'd use other tactics for situations like this.

[musicology]

Chucking him off the speaker was fair enough but making an angry announcement over the mic just draws everybody's attention to an incident which risks escalating the situation. I would have just dealt with him and not told the whole world about it. Or, as someone has previously said, just stop the music till he gets off. But not have a go over the mic (he'll have nothing to dance to and will hear you ok without the music playing).

[rth_discos]

PR consideration:

Guest at the wedding films said "dancer" - especially as he's just got up high, so it's "funny" in their eyes.

They film you push him off the speaker on the ground, and decide to share that on Facebook, naming you as the DJ, and with all your branding in the video.

How is that going to look on video, and what cost is the damage to your reputation?

It's what happens. You can deal with it verbally, but forcefully, with a guiding arm to move them to where you want to move them too. Just humour drunk people, and they soon move.

I've designed my rig to deal with drunk people - I've had a big circle of people come crashing in to it - but the whole unit just shifted back, so it was fine. It's one of the main reasons I can't bring myself to set up a plinth, as I can just see it coming crashing down one day.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Sorry mate I think you made the wrong choice.

Luckily he disappeared but a lot of other people would have taken that as an excuse to have a go at you. Throw in someone that's drunk or full of ching and you've potentially got someone trying to bottle you...

Worst case scenario he could have broke his neck, fell on his glass or hit his head and died. Wouldn't be the first time someone with thin skull syndrome died after being shoved and the courts don't give a :Censored::Censored::Censored::Censored: that you didn't know he had the condition...

I'd have killed the music and told him to get off or you were done. Let everyone in the room see what a prat he was.

[Excalibur]

Basically don't just start pushing some one as it can be classed as an assault. Always exhaust your avenues before using force so you have a defence and you are then acting Legally.

Hello Josh. Thank you for your input on this, as it's always good to get advice from people in the know. Could I ask you to pop across to the Newbies section and say hello? We're a nosey lot, and like to know who we're typing to. Thank you.

OK, my two pennorth. It's not known on here, but fairly recently, at a gig, I performed " the laying on of hands " ;) ( No it wasn't a religious experience, but the offender was heard to say " Oh God " as he left the stage. ) :)

In hindsight, I was wrong, no question. The organisation I was working for thought I was totally justified, and found the whole thing exceedingly humorous. The lad in question didn't find it quite as funny.

Were you wrong, Benny? Well that's the $64,000 question. I'd like to think I'd have killed the music and used the microphone and peer pressure to shift him, but hand on heart, I can't guarantee it. Nowadays, on balance I'd say that manhandling troublesome punters isn't the way forward. Now in The Good Old Days......................... ( but that's another story altogether ) :D

I had a young lady attempt to pole dance on my sub and top assembly once. Benny, I know how you feel.

[Nakatomi]

Safety in numbers is always the way I try to work. Stop everything & draw attention to the idiot. This stands more chance of keeping everybody else on your side and you firmly in the clear. At the very worst then you're no worse off & if anything physical has to take place somebody else might do it on your behalf.

Are those sub stopper thingies on sale yet?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I look at it as this and it's along the lines of what has already been mentioned earlier - If the guy had slipped over and landed awkwardly and broken bones or smashed his glass and cut himself badly....well, it could have really gone boobs up. You could possibly have had a riot on your hands and you and your equipment would have been at severe risk. I also agree that drawing attention to him was the wrong thing but then again, I wasn't there and in the heat of the moment I may have done the same thing so I am contradicting myself.

In my meetings, whether it's a birthday party or a wedding, I always ask for a contact on the night. At a wedding I always ask for the best man's name and I introduce myself to them on arrival. You'd like to think that they're the responsible one and 99.9% of the time they are but I've had one instance when having their name was a waste of time because they were ratted (for want of a better word).

I did door work myself many moons ago but getting aggy doesn't interest me at all. Yes, I won't take any rubbish from anyone but if I were in the same situation as Benny was I would have gone over and had a word firstly. I wouldn't of pushed him off, launching him through the air. If he didn't listen I would have grabbed his arm and pulled him off but would've been polite whilst doing it if possible or I would've had a pretty stern word in his ear to let him know exactly what I thought. I'd have then got the attention of the contact or who was the best man (assuming he wasn't) and I would've told them what would be the next step and that's what Benny said over the microphone.
IF they still didn't listen and it was getting out of hand then announcing something over the microphone would be my last resort.

I know it is annoying and it is also frustrating. People don't respect equipment sometimes and it's a pain but by pushing him over you could have seriously done him some damage and put yourself in a very awkward position.

[Shaun]

Hindsight is a great thing. I'm sure now looking back reflecting, you would probably act differently if faced with the same situation Benny. Whilst it's easy for me to say "no, you should never do that"...faced with the same situation who knows how I'd react. There are times whilst working where I've been so calm in situations where even the patience of a saint would tested. And other times where the situation so rattles me that I could easily have acted out of turn. One time that I did springs to mind: during one eventful evening at an uber-posh gig on a huge private estate lots of guests were completely ignoring requests (in person and over the mic) not to place drinks on the bass bins. At one point a guest put the drink down on the speaker just seconds after I'd made an announcement relating to it, proceeded to look down his nose at me with utter contempt and disregard and walked away to dance. I followed him quickly (lifting his glass) and gripped his shoulder hard pulled backward really firmly to stop him in his tracks, then forced the drink into his hand when he turned around - all without saying a word.

In hindsight I regretted doing it immediately, especially as it was in the middle of the dance floor, but I was at the end of my tether by that point. Whilst there is none of us that would ever intentionally act unprofessional, I'm pretty sure every one of us would have a trigger point.

I wouldn't sweat it Benny. The moment is passed without any further incident. Just chalk it up to experience. :)

[ckpr2]

I was at a disco many years ago.
A lad got pushed and went through a glass door and he bled to death.
The lad who pushed him got done for manslaughter.

There was a disco in my home town.
A lad got chinned, he fell back and hit his head on a stone fireplace and it killed him.
The lad who hit him got done for manslaughter.

I have every sympathy for you protecting your gear.
I had 2 lads fighting at a gig and they knocked my sub flying.
Luckily it didn't break and played on Ok but I was upset with them.

[davidc]

personally I think turn the music off and ask over the mic not to dance on the speaker because if you fall and hurt yourself its your fault would of been better. mouthing off over the mic in my opinion would make you look very unprofessional on the night

[musicology]

Seems the answer is... Stay cool Daddio! (at least try to!) It's another example of the things we sometimes have to deal with, but the punters don't understand...they think it's just easy money!

[DazzyD]

personally I think turn the music off and ask over the mic not to dance on the speaker because if you fall and hurt yourself its your fault would of been better. mouthing off over the mic in my opinion would make you look very unprofessional on the night

Hi David!

Thanks for your input on this discussion. It appears a lot of our members have really good opinions and advice on this one and, as it really is a matter of health and safety for all concerned, then that can only be a good thing.

As this is your first post on the forum, can I ask you to pop over to the "Newbies" section and give us a brief introduction about yourself? We're a very friendly DJ community and also a bit nosey so we like to know a bit about who we're talking to as it helps to break down some initial barriers. Just click on the Main Forums link near the top of the page then the Newbies section and start a new thread. And I'm sure we'll all make you feel very welcome! :)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Thinking about this a little more and reading through the whole thread, I am more or less in agreement with Shaun.
It's easy for us all to say "You shouldn't of...." but I am sure we've all had our moments.
I think the thing for me (and maybe others?) is that I am very concious about the service I am providing and I want positive vibes and feedback. You know what it's like in this business in that word goes around quickly. Can you imagine somewhere down the line someone talking about booking a Disco and yours / our name pops up and someone says something along the lines of "Oh, I wouldn't go near them. I was at a Disco and the DJ lost it and man handled one of the guests".... It could be worse than that as chinese whispers are inevitable along the way. Of course, that same person could fight your corner and say "Well, the guest was jumping all over the DJ's equipment so he got what he deserved" but who knows?

Maybe some people out there expect us to stay put behind the set up and not bat an eyelid when people are putting drinks on our equipment or jumping all over it?
Sorry, that's not the case with me. We all work hard to pay for our equipment and keep it looking its best.
I've had people put their drinks on my subs before and as soon as I see them do it I remove the drink and put it on the floor. I've had someone ask "What are you doing?" and I have replied with "That's not a £800.00 coaster" and they get the message. 9 times out of 10 though I have seen people attempt to leave their drink on the subs but have thought better of it. They've either looked over and seen me shaking my head or realised that the surface is uneven because the subs still have their covers on.
The first thing I say if I see them going to do it (before the coaster comment) is "I wouldn't put that there, you'll only lose it".

I remember one guy a few years back who had nearly a full pint of lager in his hand. He actually looked over at me and leant down to put it on the sub. I did the 'shaking head' thing and he just looked and had a kind of smarmy little grin on his face. I went over and told him he'd lose it and he replied with "It's a free bar mate, I'll just get another one!"....I thought to myself "You cheeky :Censored:" and replied with "Could you either put it on the floor or keep hold of it please" and he said "What's the problem?"....It was only then that I started getting annoyed so I asked him if he'd like it if I went round to his house and did a dump on his laptop or car. His reply was "I'd give you a slap mate" so I simply said "EXACTLY! now you know how I feel then". He picked up his pint and laughed and walked off. He got the message.

[yourdj]

Annoying as it is and trust me I have zero patience for people's stupidity I think pushing the guy off wasn't the way the go..

:agree: Just asking for trouble. its only a sub at the end of the day. not worth it. I would have laughed it off, but been quite firm with the guy and 'helped' him down. if he did it again then I probably would have informed the client or used his other half to manage him. :)

I think if someone purposefully poured a pint on my laptop I would find it hard to restrain myself though.

[Excalibur]

I think if someone purposefully poured a pint on my laptop I would find it hard to restrain myself though.
Eh? Isn't it a waterproof mac, Toby?
:coat:

[yourdj]

Eh? Isn't it a waterproof mac, Toby?
:coat:

:lol:

I have had people pretend and even someone say "I will chuck my drink on your laptop if you don't play another song" but it has not happened yet. most people have laptops so understand the consequences. I really want to find out where some people work and go in and give them a hard time just to prove to them how annoying it is.

I was being so nice to a best man the other day. Everytime I left the room he would go behind the decks. he did not touch anything but was pretending to dj, which is cheeky but in that situation not a problem. His wife then said she works for Kam so we got chatting a bit (I had a new KAM mic system and hazer). He got worse from there on. i was making announcement to finish the night and he would be shouting at me etc. He the nicelyen said at the end "you are the crappest dj I have ever seen" I thought to myself, well you have been dancing all night, so i can't be that bad, but said "what job do you do", he then said in an ashamed voice "IT", i then said, smiling "thats nice, do you enjoy it" and he sheepishly got out of the conversation and disappeared as he got my very subtle point. :)

I returned from a venue 'reccy' on Sat and found a girl pressing buttons on my mac. I got to the booth and she said "can i have …", I responded with "yes but don't touch my laptop again as its different system to iTunes". She looked sorry about it, so I played the track and did not have a problem. I was MCing the day so had a bit more respect than I normally would mind you. Just goes to show that aggression attracts aggression and its so easy for a situation to escalate. unless your equipment or the safety of the guests is in jeopardy, a soft approach often works well (depending on the guests mind you).

[Excalibur]

Just goes to show that aggression attracts aggression and its so easy for a situation to escalate. unless your equipment or the safety of the guests is in jeopardy, a soft approach often works well (depending on the guests mind you).

" A soft answer turneth away wrath: but a grievous word stirreth up anger." ;)

[stormproductions]

You were wrong to shove him off.

Benny, re-read this whole thread and look at how many people are basically saying you shouldn't have done it. OK, you were in the moment and possibly the red mist got to you and you may not like me as a stranger on a forum telling you so, but you did the wrong thing and you need to realise that.

Edit to add: In answer to your actual question, I've got a very high tolerance threshold and wouldn't ever use anything more physical than just a firmish guiding hand on an arm or back unless actually defending myself or someone else from physical hurt or danger. Not that I've ever had to in this line of work that I can remember.

[Excalibur]

You were wrong to shove him off.

Benny, re-read this whole thread and look at how many people are basically saying you shouldn't have done it.

And there are quite a few stating that in the same circumstances, they can't guarantee that they wouldn't have done exactly the same thing. I have done it in the past, and some day might do it again.

I'm not condoning it, just telling it like it is.

[Benny Smyth]

I am checking back in this thread and I am reading all the comments (assuming you care, of course! :p).

I'm avoiding replying because I can see this as one those moments where I will come across defensive, and then that starts the arguments and it all falls down from there. T'is the problem with the interweb. I think I read somewhere that during a conversation, 80% of the communication is through facial expressions which you obviously cannot convey online.

[stormproductions]

Absolutely, and I'm not wanting to sound too self-righteous! Plus the bloke was being a muppet and I think what you did would have made the point that he was a muppet sink in better than just talking to him. But to shove him off in a way that ended up with him in a heap and covered in drink was excessive.

[Benny Smyth]

Absolutely, and I'm not wanting to sound too self-righteous! Plus the bloke was being a muppet and I think what you did would have made the point that he was a muppet sink in better than just talking to him. But to shove him off in a way that ended up with him in a heap and covered in drink was excessive.

He was so drunk, he didn't realised what happened. Regardless to how I pushed him, he wasn't going down gracefully.

I didn't hulk up, burst through my clothes and started smashing the place up, and I didn't push excessively. I did it enough to get him off my sub and I did it calmly, :)

[funkymook]

Just thinking of possible repercussions - do I remember rightly that you’ve had a bit of fight training Benny? If so, even more reason to hold back, imagine the meal the papers and courts could make of that fact.

Actually I’m not too bothered about the moral side of this, sometimes people get a slap for being an idiot, 99% of the time that’s the end of it, no real harm done - but as a business owner there’s a lot more to consider.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I think it's really easy for us / everyone to say we wouldn't do this, that or the other or say this or that but we weren't there were we.
I remember when I was pretty new to this forum and I did some gig reviews and told it how it was. I never got physical with anyone but used my gob from time to time (as politely as I could) and some of the comments that came in were the same. At the end of the day, unless you were there or have been in the same kind of position you don't know how you'd react.

Toby mentioned the drink on laptop comment - Well, that's one of my biggest worries. Not the laptop so much but the mixer and denon system. It would take an idiot who has nothing to lose (apart from some teeth) 2 seconds to cause all kinds of havoc and misery by dropping their drink all over the system (purposely or not).
Just like Toby I had someone a couple of years ago lean over the mixer with a glass of wine. When I told them (again, politely) to move away and be careful they blatantly gave the impression that they would empty the contents over the system. There wasn't a lot I could do at the time so I just shook my head and that was it.

Now, IF they had done it then I would have had no problem whatsoever stopping the music and announcing that I was not able to continue (whether I could or not because health & safety would have come into it too due to liquid and electrics) and unfortunately the bride & groom would have got the bill for it.

[Andy P]

I know where your coming from Benny. What we should do and what we actually do are often two different things. If I hadn't taken my meds I may have did a wrestling move from the top of the stand onto him. I can have a short fuse.

But then I'd need to be accepting of the consequences.