A Warning to All

[Pe7e]

Did anyone catch 'Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away' tonight C5, o0ne of the cases was a DJ who turned up late for a wedding and ended up falling out with the B & G who subsequently sued him in the small claims court. They won and were awarded £600 damages, which he didn't pay. They then upgraded this to the High Court which they also won and he had the high court enforcement officers round with an active writ for £1600+ which he couldn't pay, his equipment was seized and was about to be removed for sale when his farther in law stumped up the cash and saved the day. Scary stuff eh? Lessons to be learnt here. :omg:

[Nakatomi]

You can see the programme here... the bit with the DJ starts about 30 minutes in:

http://www.channel5.com/shows/cant-pay-well-take-it-away/episodes/episode-5-630

[DJ Jules]

To be honest, the real lesson here is that when someone complains, don't bury your head in the sand and ignore them. Then if you fail to reach agreement and they take you to court, turn up to defend. And if they still win and need payment, take it seriously and agree a payment plan (or appeal!)

I've taken a few people through small claims before and a handful of them have just ignored the court notice (and not challenged it), then ignored the demand for payment and then suddenly decided they feel like talking when I've sent them the letter saying I'm going to send the bailiffs in. Usually they say "you can't do that!" And my response has always been, yup, I can. I won in court, pay up, because the time to argue your case happened 2 months ago...

Debt collection costs are frequently far more than the original debt. Never ignore it!!

Julian

[dicky]

Interesting program Pe7e but it does confuse me as I do know that there are some things a bailiff can not seize.


The main areas where items cannot be seized are:

Bedding, clothing, furniture and provisions that the debtor and their family need for a basic level of domestic life.
Perishable goods: refrigerated foodstuffs, fresh flowers etc.
Tools of the trade: those needed by the debtor to do their job or run their business, for example tools, books, vehicles etc.

However, these goods must be used solely by the debtor for the purposes of his or her work to fall under ‘tools of the trade’. For example, a commercial van that is also used by the debtor’s spouse is available for seizure.

The only exception I know regarding tools of trade is if the debt is rates/tax arrears in which case they can be seized (sneaky governement allowing themselves more poweres than any one else eh?)

The disco equipment clearly falls into this category, and there was no mention of who the registered driver(s) of the van are so there was no evidence that it that it was not a tool of trade.

Is this TV program giving honest facts or is it for dramatic effect?

Rich

[Nakatomi]

Ah but these guys weren't just bailiffs. They were sanctioned by the high court weren't they, so different rules may apply. Plus it looked like the numpty hadn't even locked his van. And did you see how carefully the stuff was loaded?

According to other places he's had it coming a while with a string of dissatisfied customers. Maybe now he'll up his game. The initial case was apparently about a disagreement over a starting time. Surely you'd have to be pretty lax to get done over on that kind of thing if it had to end up in court.

[DJ Jules]

I keep catching a program on tele about 10:30 or 11:00am while I'm in the Gym. "The Sheriffs are coming" on BBC... They're executing high court writ to collect debts and they appear to be able to collect pretty much anything they like (but do seem to exercise judgement in order to allow businesses to keep trading to be able to be to repay debts).

Loved it when they walked in and took £30k off Barclaycard (using various directors credit cards for payment!)

Julian

[Benny Smyth]

Just the positive exposure for our industry that I love to see. :rolleyes:

And seriously, who the :Censored: loads their van like that?

[Nakatomi]

Just the positive exposure for our industry that I love to see. :rolleyes:

And seriously, who the :Censored: loads their van like that?


I've recently seen a video that's doing the rounds where a DJ is arrogantly ignoring requests. Apparently it's supposed to be hilarious but the UK DJs sharing it don't fill me with confidence they think it's wrong. So much snobbery & bad attitude out there for all to see. One guy even put a list of DJ moans on his own website :lol:

Some people are doing the trade a very bad turn, but the good guys are likely doing well out of it.

[Benny Smyth]

Some people are doing the trade a very bad turn, but the good guys are likely doing well out of it.

But how many times do you see on national television "Uhmahgawd - My wedding DJ was the most fantastic thing on the earth! I annulled my marriage so I could marry the DJ, he was that good!"

This kind of national exposure of one man is, to the average Joe, probably an accurate representation (along with the fact that they still use the same disco setup in the Queen Vic since 1985) of the mobile disco industry as a whole so, just in case, we'll use an iPod at the wedding.

Oh...one more thing:

The Bailiff uttering the spine-shuddering phrase: "I'm a DJ too."

Of course you are, son. You're not though, are you? You've got two turntables and a bedroom. :p

[dicky]

Just the positive exposure for our industry that I love to see. :rolleyes:

And seriously, who the :Censored: loads their van like that?

Yeah I wondered that too :rolleyes:

[DazzyD]

Interesting program Pe7e but it does confuse me as I do know that there are some things a bailiff can not seize.


The main areas where items cannot be seized are:

Bedding, clothing, furniture and provisions that the debtor and their family need for a basic level of domestic life.
Perishable goods: refrigerated foodstuffs, fresh flowers etc.
Tools of the trade: those needed by the debtor to do their job or run their business, for example tools, books, vehicles etc.

However, these goods must be used solely by the debtor for the purposes of his or her work to fall under ‘tools of the trade’. For example, a commercial van that is also used by the debtor’s spouse is available for seizure.

The only exception I know regarding tools of trade is if the debt is rates/tax arrears in which case they can be seized (sneaky governement allowing themselves more poweres than any one else eh?)

The disco equipment clearly falls into this category, and there was no mention of who the registered driver(s) of the van are so there was no evidence that it that it was not a tool of trade.

Is this TV program giving honest facts or is it for dramatic effect?

Rich

Rich is perfectly correct. They shouldn't be threatening to take away the tools that are required for the person to be able to carry out his or her livelihood. If they take away the means to earn a living how can they expect that person to pay their debts ongoing? The fact is they are not allowed to take those items. But, having watched quite a few of these programmes, these, bailiffs, sheriffs or High Court Enforcement Officers often threaten to seize stuff that they can't legally take. Well, they can take them but you then apply to their office to have the goods returned and give your reasons for this - ie that they are vital to your business and your livelihood. Goods cannot be sold until these procedures have been exhausted and a legal decision has been made that they are not vital.

Rich is also correct in stating that this applies to the vast majority of "normal" debt cases. HMRC (Inland Revenue) have very different rules. The tax man is the most aggressive collector of debt in the country!! However, when goods are seized in these circumstances, it won't just be the bailiffs that attend. An official from HMRC will be onsite also. Also, HMRC and DWP now have new debt-collection powers. If you owe them money and are working, they can go direct to your employer with an Attachment of Earnings request which your employer is legally obliged to comply with. They are the only bodies that can do this without having to obtain an Attachment of Earnings Order from HM Courts & Tribunals Service.


Ah but these guys weren't just bailiffs. They were sanctioned by the high court weren't they, so different rules may apply. ...

...

Nope. They still have to abide by exactly the same rules as to what can and can't be seized. High Court rulings allow things to happen quicker than going through "lesser" legal channels.

The long and the short of it is you ever owe a debt against you and you are visited by bailiffs, sheriffs or High Court Enforcement Officers, work with them. Agree a repayment plan. The are obliged to be understanding, sympathetic to your situation and work with you to reach an outcome that is agreeable to all parties. It's much, much better in the long run than being obstructive as you could stand to lose a lot more than the original debt! ;)

[ckpr2]

I have only had to send the bailiffs in once.
I wasn't paid £3200 redundancy money after working for someone for 13 years.
He reckoned he had looked after me well giving me 13 years employment so didn't see why he had to pay redundancy.
So I took him to a employment tribunal and won very easily.
He still wouldn't pay so I had to take him to county court.
They sent the bailiffs in after he still refused to pay.
He finally decided to start paying and I got £50 a month.
I got his means tested and his car was paid off very soon and that was costing him £300 a month.
The court got his payment increased to £300 a month until it was paid off.
Just to be bloody minded he refused to pay last payment.
So I threatened him with the county court again and he paid up.

It is amazing what he got away with considering he was earning £45K a year.

[ukpartydj]

I quite like these programs. If I'm being judgemental I would say he doesn't seem like a high end DJ and therefore wouldn't have charged much more than maybe £200-£250?

Of course it is unacceptable to be late to DJ at somebody's wedding but what if he had a genuine reason? Assuming they paid £200 how does it get blown up to £600 when he did arrive, but "late"?
More info is needed to prevent other people thinking - The DJ was late, lets sue him for 3 times what we paid. Maybe if he turned up at 10pm when he was supposed to be there at 6pm.

I'm of course making many assumptions.

EDIT - Just dug a bit deeper and found his pricing structure:

tandard Dj from £150 includes: Dj from 7.30pm until 12am with lights, laser and smoke machine (if venue allows them) Playing all the very best in music!

Party Package from £180 includes: Dj from 7.30pm until 12am with lights, laser, smoke machine (if venue allows them), balloon modelling and candy floss machine. Fun for all ages!

Standard Wedding Dj from £250 includes: Dj from 7.30pm until 12am with large light show, laser and smoke machine (if venue allows them), 2 wedding meeting prior to the wedding to discuss timeline on the big day, first dance songs etc.

Wedding Package & Children's Entertainments Package from £400 includes: Dj from 4pm until 12am with large PA system, large light show, laser and smoke machine (if venue allows them), balloon modelling, party games, candy floss machine, popcorn, a bouncy castle and 2 wedding meetings prior to the wedding to discuss timeline on the big day, first dance songs etc.

Also: Wedding package £599 = Childrens entertainer with balloon modelling, party games and prizes for 1 hour. Evening DJ 7 - 12. Popcorn and candy floss machine. Bouncy Castle. Choclate Fountain with led base up to 150 guests and 10 dipping items fully staffed for 2 hours.

[DJColsie]

What's the odds he didn't have a contract signed, possibly leading to the dispute over the start time?

[Pe7e]

Assuming they paid £200 how does it get blown up to £600 when he did arrive, but "late"?


I don't know how much it started out at, but it didn't just get blown up to £600, once it went up to the high court, it escalated to £1600+ The lesson to be learned from this is to not ignore any claim made against you, if you have a defence, attend court and defend yourself. If you loose pay, up before the debt collectors / bailiffs get involved, their fees can be crippling.

[Nakatomi]

What's the odds he didn't have a contract signed, possibly leading to the dispute over the start time?

What are the odds he DID have a contract signed & simply didn't show up on time because oh I dunno, his van broke down? What can you do if you're unavoidably late? Partial refund, full refund, hand over your first born?

[Benny Smyth]

What can you do if you're unavoidably late?

A force majeure clause in the ol' booking agreement should cover that, assuming that the reasoning for being late is beyond the reasonable control of the DJ.

[ckpr2]

I don't think he needs a written contract to have to turn up.
A verbal contract is also good in court especially if there is a witness or financial proof of the work.

The first disco I worked on had 4 sets and a couple of vans so if someone broke down the other van would take over if the gigs weren't too far apart.

I got caught out with a gig in southern Scotland once.
Set up the gear and I couldn't get any volume out of the amplifier.
It took me a while to find it but I hadn't pushed a jack plug in far enough and it was shorting out the audio signal.
Oddly that was one of the best gigs I ever did.

On my first gig with my own disco I tripped over a speaker lead and yanked it out.
This shorted out the signal from the amp and blew its output fuse.
Luckily I carried spare fuses and quickly fixed it.

Other than that I have rarely had any problems.

[yourdj]

I would imagine that he turned up late was all stressed and handled it very badly, its amazing how many DJ's have such bad social skills. If he had turned up late got on with his job and was a pleasant person, it would have been fine. i once was AN HOUR late for a wedding as my van broke down a mile from the venue (I could see it). No mobile signal. AA towed me to the venue and then dropped my van back home, so i was stuck in the middle of nowhere and had to keep dashing out after each track to send texts to my friends to pick me up after. The point is, things like this happen from time to time. I set up is a super fast time, remained calm and professional and the guests were non the wiser. Bride and groom were very pleased and had forgotten after the first dance that I was late at all. I was on auto pilot all night (I often do a better job when like that), I can't remember a thing that happened as I was so worried about being stuck in a barn all night. :)

I like things like this as they make clients think twice about booking some chavvy, cheapo muppet for their wedding. If they had booked a better DJ in the first place then none of this would have happened so more often than not they only have themselves to blame. It's the expensive guys who promise the world and don't deliver the goods that annoy me. Not my sort of TV but I will watch it in a moment on Iplayer to see what the fuss is about :)

[yourdj]

That is the bioggest load of garbage I have ever watched ;) - skipped through to 30 mins after the first one.

I would give him credit, he seemed like a reasonable bloke, so as he said himself, just a lack of organisation on his part with the client and he may not have dealt with it properly on the night (depends how late he was, it may have been for ceremony music for all we know!!). Its amazing that he has a really great pickup and a massive van and he is only charging £150 a gig. thats pretty bad economics even up north, he must be working on a huge loss.

He will have to start a fresh now as his reputation is in tatters, which will be even more expensive. :(

[ukpartydj]

I was on auto pilot all night (I often do a better job when like that), I can't remember a thing that happened as I was so worried about being stuck in a barn all night. :)

I've noticed the same happens with me. Not only with discos, I'm notoriously late amongst friends and when I worked for sainsburys and wickes I would always be 2 mins late or more. A sign of a bad employee most would think but I'd outperform my coworkers regularly. I like to arrive and get stuck in instantly I work best this way.
I doubt most of my clients will appreciate this so I try to arrive with plenty of time. Only ever been late once by 20mins, because I forgot to pop my watch an hour forward. Until I got in my van and saw the dash clock I had no idea lol!

[ckpr2]

He will have to start a fresh now as his reputation is in tatters, which will be even more expensive. :(

Change the name and move on is the usual business tactic.

[scott23]

No bailiffs in Scotland, thank god. Scary to think that someone could try to sue you though, I had a guy phone me a few days after his wedding to get money back as there was only sound out of one speaker at the end of the night.

I politely reminded him, that while he was steaming and spewing up all over the dance floor. That he slipped on his vomit and knocked over the speaker, which got wrecked! He said "ahh okay, I don't remember!" Yeah mate you got carried out the building by your newly we wife and best man.

[Excalibur]

We are working here from an edited version of events. We don't know why he incurred the initial claim, we know very few facts about anything, in fact. I'm very wary of making pronouncements on so few hard facts. We're making a lot of assumptions, which can sometimes be unwise.

It is indeed a salutory tale, and is likely to do little to do much to enhance our image in some people's eyes.

[ckpr2]

This is the danger of not facing up to problems early on.
The bride and groom might have taken £100 damages to start with if he had offered it.
Once things get to the court stage the costs quickly escalate.

I learned that from an ebay experience.
Bloke bought amplifier boards.
He wasn't happy with them but I refused to rework them and asked for them to be returned for a refund.
He sent back lump of wood with tracking number.
He got refund, kept £50 of kit and left me negative feedback !

[jonezyr1]

Interesting program Pe7e but it does confuse me as I do know that there are some things a bailiff can not seize.


The main areas where items cannot be seized are:

Bedding, clothing, furniture and provisions that the debtor and their family need for a basic level of domestic life.
Perishable goods: refrigerated foodstuffs, fresh flowers etc.
Tools of the trade: those needed by the debtor to do their job or run their business, for example tools, books, vehicles etc.

However, these goods must be used solely by the debtor for the purposes of his or her work to fall under ‘tools of the trade’. For example, a commercial van that is also used by the debtor’s spouse is available for seizure.

The only exception I know regarding tools of trade is if the debt is rates/tax arrears in which case they can be seized (sneaky governement allowing themselves more poweres than any one else eh?)

The disco equipment clearly falls into this category, and there was no mention of who the registered driver(s) of the van are so there was no evidence that it that it was not a tool of trade.

Is this TV program giving honest facts or is it for dramatic effect?

Rich

Big difference enforcing debts on sole traders and LTD companies, You are correct in saying that they cannot seize certain goods, especially tools of the trade form a sole trader (self employed).

However when they are dealing with LTD companies (which this DJ had set up and it is the LTD company the sheriffs were enforcing the debt against) it differs. All tools owned by the LTD company are just assets like vehicles even if the vehicles are used personally. If a LTD company owns it (with no finance) it can be seized.

On the flip side, most High court enforcement agents and Bailiffs will not take something away that will help you pay the debt off (even if they are allowed to). They would much rather wait a few months for the cash from you then have to deal with all the paper work involved with seizing goods and selling them on for the fraction of the price they are worth.

As plenty of people have already said. work with them, they will agree a payment plan if you are honest and not being awkward etc.

[yourdj]

On the flip side, most High court enforcement agents and Bailiffs will not take something away that will help you pay the debt off (even if they are allowed to). They would much rather wait a few months for the cash from you then have to deal with all the paper work involved with seizing goods and selling them on for the fraction of the price they are worth.

No doubt that if they were not having to act up for the cameras, then they probably would have done that and not tried to seize anything. Does not make good TV watching them come up with a payment plan. We all we have tons of kit we don't really need that we could sell off to make some cash. I don't have a lot of gear and I do. :)

[rth_discos]

No doubt that if they were not having to act up for the cameras, then they probably would have done that and not tried to seize anything. Does not make good TV watching them come up with a payment plan. We all we have tons of kit we don't really need that we could sell off to make some cash. I don't have a lot of gear and I do. :)

More that what they did worked - he suddenly managed to get the payment made that day.

Without showing that they are serious, the debter will keep on giving them excuses why they can't pay today - but if they come back tomorrow the money will be there.

Their aim was to get the debt paid - and they achieved that without needing to seize any assets.

[Tony Murphy]

I would like to know in which circumstances a mobile disco can be sued.

Are we all at risk of being sued if for instance, no one dances or likes the music being played and the client decides the Dj ruined their party.

[rth_discos]

I would like to know in which circumstances a mobile disco can be sued.

Are we all at risk of being sued if for instance, no one dances or likes the music being played and the client decides the Dj ruined their party.

If a client has asked for all up to date music from the last 5 years to be played, to which you agree to play, but then play an evening of 80s music, then yes, you are at risk of being successfully sued.

If you are asked to play "all the classics" and you play "all the classics" and no-one dances, then that is not necessarily your fault, and you are very unlikely to be at risk of being successfully sued.

If you sell your service as "I guarantee the dance floor will be packed with dancers all night" then you are also at risk of being sued if the dance floor isn't packed with dancers all night, as you've promised something that you've not delivered.

[ckpr2]

I always cover myself by asking for requests at the beginning and during the event.
That way they cant come at the end of the night and say you didn't play anything they liked.

[funkymook]

I always cover myself by asking for requests at the beginning and during the event.
That way they cant come at the end of the night and say you didn't play anything they liked.

But what if you don’t have their requests?

[ckpr2]

But what if you don’t have their requests?

Play something of the same genre.

You cant carry every song ever written it would cost millions to do that.

My experience of previous gigs tells me what people are likely to like.
So I buy songs based on what people ask for.

[funkymook]

I always cover myself by asking for requests at the beginning and during the event.
That way they cant come at the end of the night and say you didn't play anything they liked.


But what if you don’t have their requests?


Play something of the same genre.

You cant carry every song ever written it would cost millions to do that.

My experience of previous gigs tells me what people are likely to like.
So I buy songs based on what people ask for.

So that hasn’t really covered you then :)

[ckpr2]

So that hasn’t really covered you then :)

But at least if it ends up in court I have showed myself to have tried hard.
Its better than doing nothing to please your customers.

If you turn up at a gig with a ghetto blaster and one Black lace CD and one flashing light then you can expect trouble.

[funkymook]

But at least if it ends up in court I have showed myself to have tried hard.
Its better than doing nothing to please your customers.


It’s really not going to end up in court over a few requests, I’m just pulling your chain :)