Horsebridge Station - Directional parametric sound curtain

[yourdj]

Rather long title sorry:

i have just had an enquiry from a rather lovely bride I met at a wedding fair on Sunday. She was very keen to book with us. I remember from an HDA (http://www.soundceilingsuk.com) Facebook post about them having a noise limit and it appears they used to have a venue (http://www.soundceilingsuk.com) installed listed ceiling sound system with standard speakers. Its apparently tough but workable as the owner has said you can bring a monitor.

It has been planned to install a parametric sound system made by sound curtain quite soon, which got me worrying not only for the evening function but also the fact that you cannot use it for ceremonies, speeches or even background music. The owner Val sent me this (I can only assume sarcastic) reply after asking a few questions in (what I thought was) a rather polite email.

Hello again
By the sound of it you don’t want to do it, so why not give it a miss?
Enjoy your holiday
Regards
Val

One would assume a venue would like the fact that a DJ is doing his homework, rather than turning up on the day unaware and making mistakes etc. not heard back from the lady, so with noise problems and an uncooperative venue manager, i unfortunately have to "give it a miss". i did say in my last email that sound and access are really important to us, its a bit like a chef not knowing if he has enough power to cook all the meals. :)

My main questions have you used this type of directional / Parametric sound ceiling system and what are they like? She did say "well it cost £12,000 so it must be good". to which i thought, "yes good for you, your licence and your neighbours, but not for your clients or the DJ who has to use it". I can see why venues use these and they are quite remarkable in their design, but can you keep a busy floor with one is the question? :p

http://www.soundceilingsuk.com

17694

[funkymook]

Rather long title sorry:

i have just had an enquiry from a rather lovely bride I met at a wedding fair on Sunday. She was very keen to book with us. I remember from an HDA (http://www.soundceilingsuk.com) Facebook post about them having a noise limit and it appears they used to have a venue (http://www.soundceilingsuk.com) installed listed ceiling sound system with standard speakers. Its apparently tough but workable as the owner has said you can bring a monitor.

It has been planned to install a parametric sound system made by sound curtain quite soon, which got me worrying not only for the evening function but also the fact that you cannot use it for ceremonies, speeches or even background music. The owner Val sent me this (I can only assume sarcastic) reply after asking a few questions in (what I thought was) a rather polite email.

Hello again
By the sound of it you don’t want to do it, so why not give it a miss?
Enjoy your holiday
Regards
Val

One would assume a venue would like the fact that a DJ is doing his homework, rather than turning up on the day unaware and making mistakes etc. not heard back from the lady, so with noise problems and an uncooperative venue manager, i unfortunately have to "give it a miss". i did say in my last email that sound and access are really important to us, its a bit like a chef not knowing if he has enough power to cook all the meals. :)

My main questions have you used this type of directional / Parametric sound ceiling system and what are they like? She did say "well it cost £12,000 so it must be good". to which i thought, "yes good for you, your licence and your neighbours, but not for your clients or the DJ who has to use it". I can see why venues use these and they are quite remarkable in their design, but can you keep a busy floor with one is the question? :p

http://www.soundceilingsuk.com

17694

Val is a bit of a character! (lovely with it though).

Do a forum search for ‘Horsebridge’ and you’ll find myself and Gary have both played there and you’ll find the answers to your questions.

[yourdj]

Val is a bit of a character! (lovely with it though).

Do a forum search for ‘Horsebridge’ and you’ll find myself and Gary have both played there and you’ll find the answers to your questions.

Ah YES sorry i remember the post now.
I got that impression. I have a view of her in my head, which is probably not too far from the truth. Probably a bit quirky?

I literally just got an email from her saying that its apparently the same system and its been "tried and tested over the last 4 years", which coupled with using a monitor in the booth area, makes this a workable system. I was under the impression that this was a new type of system going in. I can also use my own PA in the day, assuming the client books that service, which was my main concern.

So all good then i think? I would rather work with that than a noise limiter set at under 95 db and stuck in the back office out of sight!!! :)

[funkymook]

I got that impression. I have a view of her in my head, which is probably not too far from the truth.

I literally just got an email from her saying that its apparently the same system and its been "tried and tested over the last 4 years", which coupled with using a monitor in the booth area, makes this a workable system. I can also use my own PA in the day, assuming the client books that service, which was my main concern.

So all good then i think? :)

It’s a great system for what it’s designed to do, there’s no sound spillage at all, but totally unsuitable for a party/wedding, you can’t even hear announcements.

The only way the venue is workable is to use your own speaker(s) in the evening so the rest of the marquee can hear the music and announcements. Gary got away with doing that, but all it would take is Val remaining on-site (she usually goes out) and saying no and you’d be stuffed.

Personally I’d have a serious think about ever playing there again, it’s a venue I consider not fit for purpose.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Sorry, just seen this.
For what it's worth, I would turn down any enquiry for the venue unless I could take my own speakers and do what I did last time which was to put them on the floor just behind me on their sides and use them as monitors. If it wasn't for them I would have struggled. Not only was it quiet but I struggled to hear myself.
The owner went off into the village that night but her guy was on site and he said to me that it was quite loud at times so I just took out some of the bass on the EQ and it was still 10 times better than the venue's system.

I was very apprehensive about going once I'd heard Martin's thoughts and I am glad that I took the Mackies with me.

Funny thing is though, a week or so after I'd done the wedding there I had another enquiry and I told the enquirer that I'd only return there if I could do what I'd done previously. I never heard anything back. She's a nice lady though but if I were you Toby, I'd steer clear which is a shame really.

[CRAZY K]

Sorry, just seen this.
For what it's worth, I would turn down any enquiry for the venue unless I could take my own speakers and do what I did last time which was to put them on the floor just behind me on their sides and use them as monitors. If it wasn't for them I would have struggled. Not only was it quiet but I struggled to hear myself.
The owner went off into the village that night but her guy was on site and he said to me that it was quite loud at times so I just took out some of the bass on the EQ and it was still 10 times better than the venue's system.

I was very apprehensive about going once I'd heard Martin's thoughts and I am glad that I took the Mackies with me.

Funny thing is though, a week or so after I'd done the wedding there I had another enquiry and I told the enquirer that I'd only return there if I could do what I'd done previously. I never heard anything back. She's a nice lady though but if I were you Toby, I'd steer clear which is a shame really.

For legal reasons I wont name names BUT theres a big Hotel in Hertfordshire and one in Essex with exactly the same problem--and I got mugged at both venues.:daft:

The venues are totally unsuitable for speeches, announcements or even a performer like with me with a radio mike because the only people who can hear me are ON THE DANCE FLOOR, so how the :Censored: do you encourage people to join in ? In addition when you use a mike you get loads of :Censored: feedback.

The Hertfordshire one has a clown next to the main mixer so as soon as you turn up your mike or music volume he turns it down :daft::daft::daft:

Makes the performer look a total :muppet::muppet::muppet:

I personally would AVOID AVOID AVOID.

You wont build any credibility playing those kind of events, quite the reverse.:mad:

[Excalibur]

Toby, I'm going for a lie down in a darkened room.

I think I've agreed with you three times in two days!! :eek:

[yourdj]

Toby, I'm going for a lie down in a darkened room.

I think I've agreed with you three times in two days!! :eek:

:lol:

The thing is I really like this bride (not for the reasons you are thinking), she is really passionate, i know it will be an ace wedding.
I have got back to her and she is happy, so I will book this one in, see what a nightmare it is and judge it on that.

My opinion is if I can have a yamaha as a monitor then at least I can hear whats going on and can make announcements. I would imagine that a DJ who stays behind his decks would struggle as guests will not respond so much to a DJ used to getting amongst people, so getting everyone on the dance floor area for first dance is no issue as you have the visual and some audio etc. I may also run a battery speaker with battery sender to where the guests are and have that on low, that way they will hear better, without me having to turn up the sound too much.

I would scrap most announcements after that point and just play music i think, but let the bride know thats what I am going to do in advance. I can use groomsmen etc. to gather people up at the end or coordinate any other formalities. As for the ending everyone will be on the floor hopefully so the three cheers and all that is sorted.

I am used to noise limiters, so if its not going to turn off at any point then thats the main thing. :)

Listening to peoples conversations sounds fun also!!! Its amazing even with a normal gig that people don't think you can hear them!

[DJColsie]

http://www.soundceilingsuk.com

17694

For the uninitiated, are the speakers above the metallic looking plate firing downwards?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Toby, I hope you know what you're letting yourself in for.
It's not just the stupid volume there but the quality of the sound.
When I arrived to set up in the morning one of her guys was tidying up and he told me he used to DJ too and that the sound was excellent in there.
She also said that it had cost a lot of money. When she went and I was sound checking I said to her guy that I thought the sound quality was terrible and he just gave me a look as if to say "there's not a lot I can do about it"

The amps are out the back and he or one of her other guys are the only ones allowed to touch it. I asked him if he could pump it up a bit more when I was sound checking and he said it was on full.

:daft:

[funkymook]

The amps are out the back and he or one of her other guys are the only ones allowed to touch it. I asked him if he could pump it up a bit more when I was sound checking and he said it was on full.

Sounded to me like there was a limiter in the chain as well, after a certain volume it just got more compressed rather than louder.

Toby - you'll be impressed (for the wrong reasons) how well this system works. On the rather small dance- floor you can hear music, step of it, even a couple of feet away - nothing! It's really quite surreal watching people dance to what appears to be silence.

At least you've been forewarned so can plan around it - good luck.

[musicology]

Seems to me that this system has been incorrectly installed. It should have low volume satellite speakers thereby allowing everyone to hear what's going on whilst keeping a louder volume isolated for dancers thereby controlling overall volume in the venue. :muppet:'s
I can imagine it's really hard to work with. Really weird!

[CRAZY K]

Seems to me that this system has been incorrectly installed. It should have low volume satellite speakers thereby allowing everyone to hear what's going on whilst keeping a louder volume isolated for dancers thereby controlling overall volume in the venue. :muppet:'s
I can imagine it's really hard to work with. Really weird!

Aaah you forget the reason its installed.

NOISE COMPLAINTS FROM THE MOANING NEIGHBOURS. ( who may well have a perfectly reasonable gripe)

Thats why, I would suggest Toby makes sure his idea of installing extra speakers all over the place albeit at low volume is with the full cooperation of the owners OTHERWISE if the neighbours kick off and lose the plot by coming down to the venue (it happens) the venue could lose their licence.

They might be a tad upset with Toby .:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[musicology]

The clue was in "low volume satellite speakers". However, if this would still be too loud, then the venue is certainly not fit for purpose!

[Retrodisco]

I've worked with one of these in a venue near me, you could not hear announcements, and people away from the floor would never dance as they never heard their songs, the atmosphere was quite flat as most of the room was sat in silence.

[CRAZY K]

The clue was in "low volume satellite speakers". However, if this would still be too loud, then the venue is certainly not fit for purpose!

I think most of this thread confirms that fact.

The two i played at (not the Horsebridge Venue) ruined the whole event for me and I know produced a far less successful outcome for the client than it should or could have been with a normal set up.

Of course clients may not be aware of this--I suppose unless the disco actually breaks down any semblance of dancing makes it a success in some peoples eyes--personally I felt the whole concept of "having a great night" was severely compromised.

[yourdj]

Aaah you forget the reason its installed.

NOISE COMPLAINTS FROM THE MOANING NEIGHBOURS. ( who may well have a perfectly reasonable gripe)

Thats why, I would suggest Toby makes sure his idea of installing extra speakers all over the place albeit at low volume is with the full cooperation of the owners OTHERWISE if the neighbours kick off and lose the plot by coming down to the venue (it happens) the venue could lose their licence.

They might be a tad upset with Toby .:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I am going to make a point of doing a video about this to prove the point that you can't hear a thing for announcements and even background music. I can video the evening with the monitor off from where the guests are sitting and walk into the dance floor, assuming its busy enough for no one to notice and then again with the monitor on to show the difference, so clients can see it from our point of view. With careful management I can't see why any complaints would happen. Venues get it very wrong from the start and ignore these things (and book DJ's bands that play too loud) until the law then comes into play and they have to then take these measure to keep their licence. It really annoys me when venues ignore my advice!

I video from our point of view would pay dividends when also combined with a limiter video. Just put the camera on and wait for the limiter in another venue to click. looks quite dramatic when the lights go out too so will show what we have to put up with. No way around it mind you, but clients will know what I am on about and won't think I am some winey supplier with a gripe. :)

[Nakatomi]

Properly zoned PA would be a brilliant idea but I bet there's never any budget left after installing one of these ceiling systems.

How bad is the sound from these things then? What would you compare it to in terms of quality? It's probably not as tinny/yukky as a £20 ghetto blaster but... I can't imagine it sounds great.

[funkymook]

Properly zoned PA would be a brilliant idea but I bet there's never any budget left after installing one of these ceiling systems.

How bad is the sound from these things then? What would you compare it to in terms of quality? It's probably not as tinny/yukky as a £20 ghetto blaster but... I can't imagine it sounds great.

I know Gary thought it was awful but thought it was OK’ish (perhaps it wasn’t being limited as much when I was there), there was a bit of thump to it and it was loud enough on the small dance-floor.

[CRAZY K]

Properly zoned PA would be a brilliant idea but I bet there's never any budget left after installing one of these ceiling systems.

How bad is the sound from these things then? What would you compare it to in terms of quality? It's probably not as tinny/yukky as a £20 ghetto blaster but... I can't imagine it sounds great.

Its not a quality problem---its the fact sound is not directed into areas where you as a performer would want it.

ie ONLY directly downwards on the dance floor.

So no chance of guests sitting down hearing whats going on and thinking hey this is good --lets join in.

No chance of hearing what the DJ is saying--might not be a disadvantage:rolleyes:

So personally found it virtually impossible to run the event in a satisfactory professional way, if you want to leave the ipod playing all night--perfect. No DJ required.

A real party killer.

Did I mention feedback on the mike? Probably not worth plugging in :D:D:D

[ukpartydj]

Surely there is no bass if the system is directional?

Sounds like a nightmare but like you've said Toby if the bride seems a good one and wants you particularly I'd think it a little rude to decline. It's not their fault after all!

[funkymook]

Surely there is no bass if the system is directional?

You'd have thought so, but there's obviously some very clever stuff going on, it's not just speakers in the ceiling pointing down, you can literally step in and out of the music zone.

[Nakatomi]

Surely there is no bass if the system is directional?

Sounds like a nightmare but like you've said Toby if the bride seems a good one and wants you particularly I'd think it a little rude to decline. It's not their fault after all!

Yeah I'm failing to see how there's much below 250Hz, what with the size of the panels they use and the wavelengths of sound at bass frequencies.. They reckon their panels are 35Hz to 19Khz -5dB. Which if true, ain't gonna be very directional low down. The funny thing, bass will be the most likely reason their licence was ever in trouble anyway.

[Shaun]

Sounds like a nightmare but like you've said Toby if the bride seems a good one and wants you particularly I'd think it a little rude to decline. It's not their fault after all!

I don't think it's being rude, quite the opposite. I think he'd be doing his client a discredit if he provided his services in a situation where he couldn't in all good faith give 100% to them.

I'd rather politely decline the gig and explain why, than put myself in a position where I could't provide the best service possible to the client and their guests.

[funkymook]

Yeah I'm failing to see how there's much below 250Hz, what with the size of the panels they use and the wavelengths of sound at bass frequencies.. They reckon their panels are 35Hz to 19Khz -5dB. Which if true, ain't gonna be very directional low down. The funny thing, bass will be the most likely reason their licence was ever in trouble anyway.

Trust me, step off the dancefloor and you can't hear anything, it's like there's an invisible force field stopping any music, including bass, escaping, yet you can hear the dancers talking. I know it sounds impossible but you have to experience it to believe it.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I don't think it would be rude to refuse the booking either.
Depending on what the deposit was for the venue and if they can get it back, if it were me and I was listening to the advice given I would start looking for another venue.
I know it sounds easy and it most certainly isn't but as Martin said, you really have to experience it to believe it. It is so strange.
I'll be honest, I had a full dance floor all night but I don't know if that would have happened if I hadn't taken my speakers and used them as monitors.

Toby, if I were you I would relay this information to the Bride to be. It's not scare tactics, it's honest reviews from DJ's that you know that have been there.
I phoned up and had a good chat with the venue owner a few weeks before and I also let my Bride know when Martin informed me of the situation there. I was very apprehensive and quite nervous about what was going to happen on the night. Seriously, you can't actually hear yourself speak!

People on the dance floor can hear you speak but if you're making announcements beforehand or for the first dance etc and there is nobody on the dance floor as yet then they'll struggle to hear you. It's all very well saying you'll take this and that etc but if you just turn up with speakers and the venue owner is about, she may get the bum with you mate, especially after you've posted her reply to your email.

It's ok to ask for advice but there's no point giving it if you or anyone else aren't going to listen. I don't mean that to sound funny, seriously.

Before I went down there I had a chat with my Bride to be. She said that it sounded ok when she visited the venue and there was a DJ sound checking. I asked if she was stood on the dance floor and she said yes. I also asked her if the marquee was empty and she said yes. We all know that it's a different scenario when a venue is full.

Now, this is totally 100% true - When I turned up that evening I saw the best man. He said that they'd had an iPad running through the system throughout the day and the wedding breakfast and it was really a waste of time because nobody could hear anything at all. Like I said, your idea of additional speakers for your interraction is a good idea but if you don't sort it with the venue owner in advance and she gets the hump then you'll have to make do with her system. If that's the case then you may as well just walk around the tables using your voice because a microphone will be a waste of time. If you stand on the dance floor, the only person that will hear what you are saying is YOU.

I have to say also that I found the venue owner a bit of a character. I got on well with her. That may have been because my wife had been at the venue one weekend doing a Steam Punk wedding shoot for her business which was really good so when I turned up to set up we had a lot to talk about and I may have sweet talked her into letting me use my speakers too. You might need to do some of that which I am sure you can do mate.

[ukpartydj]

I think rude is probably the wrong word but my vocabulary is failing me. I understand it's be crap sound wise but I'd be a bit uncomfortable saying I don't want to do it because of the sound system when they've found their "perfect DJ"... I'd certainly tell them my concerns though and leave it up to them.

I'd quite like to have a listen f to one of these systems to hear for myself :)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Totally understand where you're coming from too.
Remember, I had my concerns aswell which is why I asked about the venue when I got the booking.
My booking was for the sister of a Bride I'd DJ'd for the previous year elsewhere and it was a great wedding. Non stop dancing from start to finish with a great playlist.
This one looked the same on paper when I received the requests and had a chat with the couple as there were lots of the same guests attending and apparently they were looking forward to it as they'd had such a good time at the previous wedding and were very complimentary about me which was good but it also had me worrying.

I worried because with the Brides being sisters I wanted them to both to have had a great time if you know what I mean. Luckily, it all worked out well in the end but as I said, personally I wouldn't go back unless I could sweet talk the venue owner into letting me do what I did before.

[Benny Smyth]

Good news Gary - I've won you the residency contract there! Part of the deal is that you're only allowed to use the in-house system, so you'll have to leave your monitors at home, but I told them that you'd be totally fine with that and are looking forward to working there at least three times a week for the next 30 years.



















































































































































































;)

[CRAZY K]

Trust me, step off the dancefloor and you can't hear anything, it's like there's an invisible force field stopping any music, including bass, escaping, yet you can hear the dancers talking. I know it sounds impossible but you have to experience it to believe it.

This man speaks the truth:D:D:D

I have experienced it TWICE.:daft::daft::daft:

I hope never again-- unless I get mugged.

Things to consider for those of you deciding to work with this WEIRD system--

1. If the reinforcement type arrangement suddenly becomes unacceptable to the owner (e.g. phone call from irate neighbour threatening the premises licence) you may be :Censored:for the rest of the evening.

I worked with a DJ at a limiter premises who smuggled in a battery operated amp/ speaker and hid it under HIS DJ CONSOLE and pretended it wasnt there:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

There you go Toby, disguise your Yamaha speakers as flower stands-- floor sited with black cloth over the top and flowers on top of the cabinet, no one will NOTICE.:rolleyes:

2. The owner may have some clown controlling the master control on the mixer who has only one interest --keeping the licence--helping to kill any possible atmosphere-- yeah it happened to me :mad:

3. As confirmed by Gary unless reinforced sound no announcements--- so you go round the audience like some demented Town Crier shouting

First dance first dance anyone for the first dance ladeez and genlemen ( thats not a typo)

You couldnt make this up --:rolleyes:

[Excalibur]

The simplistic answer seems to me that you must inform the bride and groom exactly what the use of the in house system only will mean.
That any guests not on the dancefloor will not hear background music through the meal, will not hear announcements, and not hear the music for the disco unless they're on the dancefloor.

Aha!! :lightbulb::lightbulb::lightbulb: I have the answer. :) Video. Put a screen up, and have an assistant there typing announcements, like the UN Council meetings have simultaneous translators. When it comes to disco time, either have them type the titles, or just use music videos. Simples. :D

[Corabar Steve]

Seems to me that the main concern is not being able to hear announcements off the dancefloor. Why not ask if you can deploy a speaker at the other end, just for your mic?

[yourdj]

I'd think it a little rude to decline.

Not at all I have declined serval weddings recently due to sound problems and the bride has been more than understanding as i have gone out of my way to seek a solution and talk to the owners about it too. They appreciate you really know what you are talking about, are not a pre-madonna prat and have a legitimate worry about something, which would otherwise eluded them until the wedding day! I bet some of the brides that are told "oh its a tried and tested system" sit there on the night (in near silence) and feel a bit mislead as they can't hear any of their favourite tracks unless they get on the dance floor, I would!!

I have accepted the event as long as i can use a monitor on low and of course use normal speakers during the day. This was the brides opening sentence: "Thanks for your perseverance on this. Sounds like it was a bit of a battle but we appreciate your professionalism".

I am running a business so would not want to put myself in a situation (as shaun says) where i can't deliver the best service or that makes me look like a prat. i have declined a £1000 all day booking First week of Jan last year as the hotel (not a great one either) was closing the next day. I just did not want to risk anything going wrong (e.g. the bar running out of drinks or the chef walking out). They were not offended and understood my hesitation. Just the evening would have been fine, but to be in charge of the day, no thanks! :)



There you go Toby, disguise your Yamaha speakers as flower stands


I am on it. i always forget how clueless about sound systems people are so it may work? ;)

17695

No I can have a speaker on the booth, facing guests and set up as near to the seating as possible.

I can then add a second battery speaker, with battery UHF feed.


Video.

Thats actually a good idea. It would be strange having music videos without the music. Perhaps even novel, like a silent disco.
i could power point message "right everyone up you get its now the first dance". :)

[ukpartydj]

I think a line array system with a light on top might fool a few ... just a light stand... ;)

[DJ Jules]

I think a line array system with a light on top might fool a few ... just a light stand... ;)

I've been mounting the satellites from my HK Nano 600 onto the ends of my lighting bar, leaving the sub hidden away under the booth. In a recent facebook conversation, 9 out of 10 DJ's didn't spot the speakers until I gave them a close up ;) The bass output from the Nano would totally give it away though!

I've also seen a few people putting the Evox 8 arrays inside truss podiums with a lycra sock over the truss so they disappear completely.

Julian

[ckpr2]

Directional parametric sound curtain

Venues getting their own equipment ?
They will be doing their own gigs next !

I used to do cheapo discos for a local pub.
After a while he asked me where to buy disco gear from so I told him.
He got his own gear then stopped hiring me.
3 months later the pub went bust.
Coincidence ?