A tale of speaker woes. ( And good luck )

[Excalibur]

Specially for Crazy K, cos he's obviously keen to see this. :)

Having moved on some halogen lights, and passive cabs and amps which hadn't been used in ages, and were taking up valuable space, I was in a position to acquire some actives to replace them. The cabs I'd let go were the W Audio 10" Epic tops and subs. Awesome cabs, especially when driven by a PV2600. Trouble is, the paint on the cabs had been faulty from day one ( I got them s/h, intending to give them a facelift. ) and the 2600 is :Censored:ing heavy.

I have some gigs coming up where dinky cabs will be just what the job requires, so I needed some 10" cabs, and I reckoned I also had a use for some 8" as well.

I had found some astonishingly good value 10" wooden cabs near me, and went off to have a demo. Plywood construction, a name I recognised, ( I had an amp bearing the same name ) and attractively priced. ( The 10" were priced the same as the 8", but they've now spotted that, and increased the price of the tens. )

So, I arrived at the shop, and asked for a demo. " No problem Sir". Oh, but there was. Now I know exactly what it was, as I've got them beside me confirming my diagnosis. The lad selected them on the amazingly impressive touch screen selector, and I was really impressed. Until I realised that instead of a 10" top, he was running a sub and a 15" top!! I pointed this out, and he selected the one I wanted. Silence. :confused:

A spot of quick fault finding ensued, all cables were good, and swapping the cables from one we'd heard working didn't help. Most curious. And then, it powered up. I was really impressed by such a little cab, and asked if he could get it down, so I could fondle it. At this point, it got confusing. Let me show you.

The ones I wanted were advertised as De Luxe. (http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Phonic-iSK-10A-Deluxe-Active-Loudspeaker/1DC7) The description and PDF refer to what I believe to be the de luxe model. The one in my hand had no mic input, and one less tone control, as per the picture on the website. Having pointed out that as far as I was concerned, this wasn't the cab advertised, I was offered a hefty discount. I like hefty discounts. :)

Since I loved the design, construction, looks and sound of it, I bought a pair. These arrived in boxes proudly claiming to be the De Luxe model. With the picture of the lower spec one on the box. And the manual for the De Luxe one I wanted inside, along with the lower spec cabs. :daft: The actual de luxe ones say de luxe on the back of the speaker, these don't. Curiouser and curiouser. :confused:


Nevertheless, I loved the sound, and the reduced price, so off I wandered off to the West Riding Discotechnology meeting, where I picked up a pair of W-Audio PSR 8As as well, from a certain Cumbrian dealer. ;) Sadly, we were unable to run them there, as the Peavey rep was demonstrating his wares. That turns out to have been a shame.

Saturday was the ideal chance to run them, as the gig was crying out for a small PA. I connected them up, and was in raptures with them. Until an hour into playing background music quietly, one switched off. Cable checking followed, with no problems found. No problem, I had the little Warriors with me, so swapped them. The warriors aren't a patch on them, sound wise, but at least they kept going, and finished the gig satisfactorily.

Sunday, I plugged both Phonics in, and lo and behold, they both worked!! :confused:I couldn't get them to fail. Now I was in a quandary, and contacted the shop to tell my tale of woe. They offered initially to have a look, then upgraded to swapping my iffy one for another new one. So, this morning, I fired them up in the house, after Jeanette had gone to work, and again, they were spot on. Until they both switched off! :mad:

This afternoon, I've done more testing, and they will cut out after a time, whether they're playing music or not. Unless you then switch them off, wait a while, and switch them on again, they're dead. Exactly what the demo model did. At least I've got an easily replicated fault to show them, so tomorrow morning I'm going back for a refund, and to tell them I reckon their entire stock is faulty. Should go down well. Perhaps offering to buy something else will soothe them a bit, who knows?

Tune in tomorrow for the next gripping instalment. :D:D

[CRAZY K]

Specially for Crazy K, cos he's obviously keen to see this. :)

Having moved on some halogen lights, and passive cabs and amps which hadn't been used in ages, and were taking up valuable space, I was in a position to acquire some actives to replace them. The cabs I'd let go were the W Audio 10" Epic tops and subs. Awesome cabs, especially when driven by a PV2600. Trouble is, the paint on the cabs had been faulty from day one ( I got them s/h, intending to give them a facelift. ) and the 2600 is :Censored:ing heavy.

I have some gigs coming up where dinky cabs will be just what the job requires, so I needed some 10" cabs, and I reckoned I also had a use for some 8" as well.

I had found some astonishingly good value 10" wooden cabs near me, and went off to have a demo. Plywood construction, a name I recognised, ( I had an amp bearing the same name ) and attractively priced. ( The 10" were priced the same as the 8", but they've now spotted that, and increased the price of the tens. )

So, I arrived at the shop, and asked for a demo. " No problem Sir". Oh, but there was. Now I know exactly what it was, as I've got them beside me confirming my diagnosis. The lad selected them on the amazingly impressive touch screen selector, and I was really impressed. Until I realised that instead of a 10" top, he was running a sub and a 15" top!! I pointed this out, and he selected the one I wanted. Silence. :confused:

A spot of quick fault finding ensued, all cables were good, and swapping the cables from one we'd heard working didn't help. Most curious. And then, it powered up. I was really impressed by such a little cab, and asked if he could get it down, so I could fondle it. At this point, it got confusing. Let me show you.

The ones I wanted were advertised as De Luxe. (http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Phonic-iSK-10A-Deluxe-Active-Loudspeaker/1DC7) The description and PDF refer to what I believe to be the de luxe model. The one in my hand had no mic input, and one less tone control, as per the picture on the website. Having pointed out that as far as I was concerned, this wasn't the cab advertised, I was offered a hefty discount. I like hefty discounts. :)

Since I loved the design, construction, looks and sound of it, I bought a pair. These arrived in boxes proudly claiming to be the De Luxe model. With the picture of the lower spec one on the box. And the manual for the De Luxe one I wanted inside, along with the lower spec cabs. :daft: The actual de luxe ones say de luxe on the back of the speaker, these don't. Curiouser and curiouser. :confused:


Nevertheless, I loved the sound, and the reduced price, so off I wandered off to the West Riding Discotechnology meeting, where I picked up a pair of W-Audio PSR 8As as well, from a certain Cumbrian dealer. ;) Sadly, we were unable to run them there, as the Peavey rep was demonstrating his wares. That turns out to have been a shame.

Saturday was the ideal chance to run them, as the gig was crying out for a small PA. I connected them up, and was in raptures with them. Until an hour into playing background music quietly, one switched off. Cable checking followed, with no problems found. No problem, I had the little Warriors with me, so swapped them. The warriors aren't a patch on them, sound wise, but at least they kept going, and finished the gig satisfactorily.

Sunday, I plugged both Phonics in, and lo and behold, they both worked!! :confused:I couldn't get them to fail. Now I was in a quandary, and contacted the shop to tell my tale of woe. They offered initially to have a look, then upgraded to swapping my iffy one for another new one. So, this morning, I fired them up in the house, after Jeanette had gone to work, and again, they were spot on. Until they both switched off! :mad:

This afternoon, I've done more testing, and they will cut out after a time, whether they're playing music or not. Unless you then switch them off, wait a while, and switch them on again, they're dead. Exactly what the demo model did. At least I've got an easily replicated fault to show them, so tomorrow morning I'm going back for a refund, and to tell them I reckon their entire stock is faulty. Should go down well. Perhaps offering to buy something else will soothe them a bit, who knows?

Tune in tomorrow for the next gripping instalment. :D:D

Holy Cut out Batman---thats a disaster.:rolleyes:

Must be the cut out switches kicking in--shades of old Mackies?

I did warn you young Peter on the perils of powered speakers:D:D:D:D:D:D

My only passive problem was the Peavey Mixer Amp that popped one night and then worked fine---instantly dispatched to the rubbish tip :rolleyes:

Or the EV top of the range radio Mike which may well be heading down the River Nene for the Wash where it belongs:daft:

As you say--must be a faulty batch--these days you dont expect this.

So its a 3 hour sound test on the new gear whatever it is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As it happens I have had 2 Phonic mixers over the last 10 years, great kit totally reliable until the pots go crackly.

Next instalment please:beer1:

[DJ Jules]

Hmm, £169? That's not exactly a lot more than the PSR8a's, but 800w vs 150w RMS?! Interesting stuff!

One interesting thing I learned from the HK nano... some active cabs these days have a sleep mode that cuts in after a pre-set period without a signal and shuts the amp down until it's powered off and on again. On the HK nano, there's actually a switch on the back to disable it. Is it possible these have the same "feature" but not the same option to disable it - and it's either malfunctioning or not detecting a signal?

I hope you get to the bottom of it with the dealers help?

Julian

[Nakatomi]

Ow that's gotta hurt.

At least the fault's readily reproducible - more than half the battle in these cases. Hope you get a satisfactory outcome Peter.

[Excalibur]

Hmm, £169? That's not exactly a lot more than the PSR8a's, but 800w vs 150w RMS?! Interesting stuff!

One interesting thing I learned from the HK nano... some active cabs these days have a sleep mode that cuts in after a pre-set period without a signal and shuts the amp down until it's powered off and on again. On the HK nano, there's actually a switch on the back to disable it. Is it possible these have the same "feature" but not the same option to disable it - and it's either malfunctioning or not detecting a signal?

I hope you get to the bottom of it with the dealers help?

Julian

Funny you should say that. ;) Other folk have suggested the same thing. These switch off whether idle, or playing music. You've just put an idea into my head, but I can't really test it. I've not had them hammering out dubstep at insane volumes, just background at moderate levels. Perhaps if I wound the blighters up they'd keep going? :confused:

Mind you, if I can't turn 'em down without them going sleepy byes, it's not very good. Tomorrow morning they're going back to the shop for a refund, definitely. Whether I'll get their replacement from the same shop, who knows?

Gear4music have the new Alto TS210 in stock, or I have the chance of some pug ugly Opera 510 at a sensible price.
Advice on either would be appreciated, thanks.

[CRAZY K]

Funny you should say that. ;) Other folk have suggested the same thing. These switch off whether idle, or playing music. You've just put an idea into my head, but I can't really test it. I've not had them hammering out dubstep at insane volumes, just background at moderate levels. Perhaps if I wound the blighters up they'd keep going? :confused:

Mind you, if I can't turn 'em down without them going sleepy byes, it's not very good. Tomorrow morning they're going back to the shop for a refund, definitely. Whether I'll get their replacement from the same shop, who knows?

Gear4music have the new Alto TS210 in stock, or I have the chance of some pug ugly Opera 510 at a sensible price.
Advice on either would be appreciated, thanks.

Turns itself off--Sounds a VERY unwelcome feature if its there---nothing on the spec about it.

My son has some TS 112A Altos, dont sound too bad to my ears :beer1: Provided you can work with plastic speakers:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Excalibur]

Provided you can work with plastic speakers:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Alan, why do you think I initially fell in love with the Phonics? Plywood boxes. :) I don't know if you know this, but I have some plastic boxes, Proel V15A. They're :Censored:ing ugly, but they sound superb. At the moment they're my " upstairs" cabs, because of the top handle. They're easier to carry than my wooden 12s. It's a funny old world.

[CRAZY K]

Alan, why do you think I initially fell in love with the Phonics? Plywood boxes. :) I don't know if you know this, but I have some plastic boxes, Proel V15A. They're :Censored:ing ugly, but they sound superb. At the moment they're my " upstairs" cabs, because of the top handle. They're easier to carry than my wooden 12s. It's a funny old world.

Understood--hope you can find timber in your travels :rolleyes:

Going up to first floor ==nope thats not on my agenda these days unless there is a nice lift.:D:D:D

[Imagine]

Eeeeeeee lad.........you didn't listen did you......

Plywood???? As in tree? What's wrong with plastic? ;)

After all of your advice a couple of months ago about the absolutely JAW DROPPING DXR8/DXS12 combo....you went elsewhere :rolleyes:

OK - looking at the specs, I can see why so I'll forgive you for being, well......a Yorkshireman and spending a fraction of the price :sofa:

Since I've had this particular combo, my poor 15's have sat unloved and unused in my storage facility....just waiting for the day they can come out and play again. Until then though, 8's and 12's all the way. And yes....my jaw STILL hits the floor every time I use them. They shouldn't be that loud....it defies what I was taught in O-Level physics! :zip:

[Excalibur]

Smugness is most unbecoming, Wayne. :Naughty:

Were this rig intended to be the main/sole one, then the Yamahas would indeed be in the frame. However, as many folk know, my gigs vary wildly, from Young Farmers in vast sheds ( though I must admit, I'm not getting as many of those recently :confused::() to the smallest room I've ever worked in. I barely had sufficient room for the Micromax! :eek:
I try to tailor the kit used to the function and venue. Believe me, if I had a grand to spare, I'd soon be the proud owner of a Maui 5 system for smaller events. But I haven't, so I must cut my coat according to my cloth.

As you have realised, on paper, and when actually making a noise, those Phonics were superb. I loved them, they did exactly what I wanted, but sadly intermittently. :(

My next move is either to fork out more cash :cry::cry: for something more expensive, or simply take the refund and take stock of the situation. Trouble is, I've identified a need/niche/use for some 10" cabs, and now I crave some. :D
In all seriousness, I do have a few gigs imminent where something of that style would be weapon of choice.

[CRAZY K]

Smugness is most unbecoming, Wayne. :Naughty:

Were this rig intended to be the main/sole one, then the Yamahas would indeed be in the frame. However, as many folk know, my gigs vary wildly, from Young Farmers in vast sheds ( though I must admit, I'm not getting as many of those recently :confused::() to the smallest room I've ever worked in. I barely had sufficient room for the Micromax! :eek:
I try to tailor the kit used to the function and venue. Believe me, if I had a grand to spare, I'd soon be the proud owner of a Maui 5 system for smaller events. But I haven't, so I must cut my coat according to my cloth.

As you have realised, on paper, and when actually making a noise, those Phonics were superb. I loved them, they did exactly what I wanted, but sadly intermittently. :(

My next move is either to fork out more cash :cry::cry: for something more expensive, or simply take the refund and take stock of the situation. Trouble is, I've identified a need/niche/use for some 10" cabs, and now I crave some. :D
In all seriousness, I do have a few gigs imminent where something of that style would be weapon of choice.

The trouble is Peter, Wayne thinks there are money trees growing in Yorkshire near your home:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

They are only found in the streets of London of course:D

Let us know how you get on with the dealer.

Is there nothing tempting from our German friends or I guess there is the risk of a fault involving sending back heavy items.:daft:

Hope something turns up.

Plastic can be fantastic unless you accidentally drop a cabinet and the plastic cracks--has happened here, looks very naff and the unit stopped working:rolleyes:

[TONYTIGER]

Peter,i am surprised you are having trouble with Phonic as they are part of HW international and are the same people that market Shure products so quite a reputable company hopefully it is just a bad batch hope you get sorted out.

[Excalibur]

Peter,i am surprised you are having trouble with Phonic as they are part of HW international and are the same people that market Shure products so quite a reputable company hopefully it is just a bad batch hope you get sorted out.

Tony, while I didn't have that information before I went, I was working on the fact that I've had good experiences of Phonic kit in the past. Ah well.

[CRAZY K]

Tony, while I didn't have that information before I went, I was working on the fact that I've had good experiences of Phonic kit in the past. Ah well.

Whilst I am a Phonic fan myself it does rather ask some awkward questions about how much quality control there is now for this organisation?

You would think the products would be allowed to "soak" as electricians call it-- for new products -- for a few hours to pick up this very problem.

Unless we are missing something.

Next instalment awaited !!!!!

[djdj]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Of-Yamaha-DSR112-Active-PA-Speakers-Immaculate-condition-12-2-way-1300W-/162018349910?hash=item25b90bd356:g:B3oAAOSwp5JWZ0b J

Make a cheeky offer, I love these speakers!!! :daft:

[Excalibur]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Of-Yamaha-DSR112-Active-PA-Speakers-Immaculate-condition-12-2-way-1300W-/162018349910?hash=item25b90bd356:g:B3oAAOSwp5JWZ0b J

Make a cheeky offer, I love these speakers!!! :daft:

Dave, you're not with the program. Not only is the owner likely to accept a bid of £150.00, even if he did, they're 12", and thus disbarred. I'm looking for 10".

OK, here's the next ( final??? ) instalment. Grab a coffee and a choccy biccy. :)

I went back to York this afternoon, wheeling in my beloved Phonics on my own truck. Luckily for me, the two staff I'd dealt with were the first two I saw. I explained why I was here, and asked if before we did anything rash, I could demo some alternative speakers. I also told them that every Phonic speaker in the shop would have the same fault, and forecast what the demo speaker would do. Bold words, eh?

Good News
I was right. The Phonic on demo was asleep. I explained how to wake it up, and it did exactly as I had forecast. So far, so good. :) I asked them to demo the Alto TS 210, and couldn't see it. " There it is " said the lad, thinking I was blind. He was indeed pointing to an Alto, but it was the 12" Black, over £300 more expensive!! :eek: Having been shown the error, off he went to bring the correct one out of storage. He opened the box, and I took it out one handed and lifted it above my head!! It was very very light.We placed it on the shelf, and plugged it in to demo.

Bad News.
For a speaker priced £40 dearer, it was very very disappointing. Having woken the Phonic up, we ran them A-B, and the difference was immense. Oh dear. :(:( I was now officially heartbroken at having found a cab which was perfect for my needs, at a brilliant price, and finding out it had a severe design fault which rendered it useless. :cry::cry:
At this point I was despondent, because the cab I'd hoped would be an alternative was falling well short of expectations.The young assistant agreed that there was a huge gulf between them sound wise.

Good News
Although the Alto has no tone control, it does have a " contour " button. Pressing seems to simply add bass, which is what was lacking. It still wasn't in the same league as the Phonic, but it was now vaguely acceptable. The lad was surprised when I said I'd consider the Altos. As long as the price was right. ;):D I had a fallback position of some Db Opera available across in the West Riding, but they were more money than I wanted to spend, and involved more driving. So, I asked the lad what the figures would pan out to, and off he went to find out. He made out a quote, printed it off, and went to show it to his boss.

Good News
He told me what the price was, and apologised that they couldn't make it better. I'm not saying what the price was, but suffice to say it was keen. Very keen. :thumbs_up::thumbs_up:
I'm now the owner of a pair of Alto TS 210s, and I really really wish I had the Phonics. If they had been reliable, they were fantastic value. They obviously have a fault, whether it's quality control, sleep mode, or what, I don't know. I suspect there's going to be a lot of discussion between the buyer in Gear4music and the wholesaler. ;)

So, I haven't got the speakers I wanted. It seems to me that the only way to do that would have been to spend a lot of money, and move up to HK, Yamaha, or RCF and the like. I can't justify that sort of expenditure for a system that isn't going to be the main one. Ah well, better keep checking those numbers. :)

[Imagine]

The trouble is Peter, Wayne thinks there are money trees growing in Yorkshire near your home:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

They are only found in the streets of London of course:D



Yorkshire's got a lot more money than the Cambridgeshire Fens (or anywhere else in East Anglia come to think of it as Mark will doubtless testify).

I mentioned the Yammy's in jest - they were a huge investment for me which took a lot of thinking about. But, having heard them I had to have them and now having DXR8's, DXR15's and DSR12's - I have everything I'm ever likely to need (I don't tend to do thumping young farmers gigs so the DSR18 was swapped for the 12's ;) ).

Glad you've got some sort of solution in the end Peter. Even if they're not the ones you really wanted. At the end of the day....will the customer ever know any different? (I suspect not unless the Alto's are painful to listen to).

It could have been worse - you could have gone down the singing drainpipe route :sofa:

[Excalibur]

It could have been worse - you could have gone down the singing drainpipe route :sofa:
Funny you should say that. Everything about the Maui 5 has impressed from first viewing, and one stack of a Maui was mooted as a contender by a happy Maui user. I did consider it very carefully, but I would have disliked not having the second half, and I would have disliked buying the second one even more.

I really am struggling to come to terms with losing the Phonics. I've now got second ( third?) best, and for more money. I'm not ecstatic, but at least I should have something which will do the job I want reliably. I'll keep you posted as I use them more.

Edit:
I'm now running one in the living room, and it sounds better than in the shop. I'm sure I can get it where I want with a bit of EQ. For ages, I've basically run the EQ flat, except for some very minor tweaks.

[TONYTIGER]

Yorkshire's got a lot more money than the Cambridgeshire Fens (or anywhere else in East Anglia come to think of it as Mark will doubtless testify).

I mentioned the Yammy's in jest - they were a huge investment for me which took a lot of thinking about. But, having heard them I had to have them and now having DXR8's, DXR15's and DSR12's - I have everything I'm ever likely to need (I don't tend to do thumping young farmers gigs so the DSR18 was swapped for the 12's ;) ).

Glad you've got some sort of solution in the end Peter. Even if they're not the ones you really wanted. At the end of the day....will the customer ever know any different? (I suspect not unless the Alto's are painful to listen to).

It could have been worse - you could have gone down the singing drainpipe route :sofa:

No tall singing drain pipes are bad,i have a FBT Vertus system and also DXR 15s and DXR 12s the Vertus wins hands down.

[CRAZY K]

Funny you should say that. Everything about the Maui 5 has impressed from first viewing, and one stack of a Maui was mooted as a contender by a happy Maui user. I did consider it very carefully, but I would have disliked not having the second half, and I would have disliked buying the second one even more.

I really am struggling to come to terms with losing the Phonics. I've now got second ( third?) best, and for more money. I'm not ecstatic, but at least I should have something which will do the job I want reliably. I'll keep you posted as I use them more.

Edit:
I'm now running one in the living room, and it sounds better than in the shop. I'm sure I can get it where I want with a bit of EQ. For ages, I've basically run the EQ flat, except for some very minor tweaks.

Peter, dont all speakers sound better in a house with curtains, furniture, carpets and absorbent items because it improves the bass and general sound, rather than a rattly old hall with no absorbent surfaces?

On a positive note my sons Altos have NO EQ at all which is a bit scary :daft: and you rely on your mixer--- however they dont sound too bad actually even playing an ipod directly through the input. We even plugged a Microhone straight in when we were in the Guildhall Cambridge side room which sounded ok without mixing and thats some feat I can tell you. Very high ceiling.:daft:

Its hasnt cut out yet then:D:D:D:D:D:D

[DJIanScott]

Yorkshire's got a lot more money than the Cambridgeshire Fens (or anywhere else in East Anglia come to think of it as Mark will doubtless testify).

I mentioned the Yammy's in jest - they were a huge investment for me which took a lot of thinking about. But, having heard them I had to have them and now having DXR8's, DXR15's and DSR12's - I have everything I'm ever likely to need (I don't tend to do thumping young farmers gigs so the DSR18 was swapped for the 12's ;) ).

Glad you've got some sort of solution in the end Peter. Even if they're not the ones you really wanted. At the end of the day....will the customer ever know any different? (I suspect not unless the Alto's are painful to listen to).

It could have been worse - you could have gone down the singing drainpipe route :sofa:

Glad you're enjoying the 12" subs! I haven't even had a chance to use the DSR118 sub yet! And yes, I've bought another one!

There seems to be a theme of 'buy cheap, buy twice' on this thread. One investment of £900 would buy a pair of Yamaha DXR10's and solve everything. Admittedly not a wooden cabinet, but built so solidly (by Nexo) that it can totally blow away a pair of budget Phonic speakers, no matter what they're made of. It has possibly the most diverse mixer/input/EQ section of any active cab and a 700w/127dB amp.

And I have a friend in Yorkshire....richest bloke I know! Streets are paved with t'gold up there!

[Excalibur]

One investment of £900 would buy a pair of Yamaha DXR10's and solve everything. Admittedly not a wooden cabinet, but built so solidly (by Nexo) that it can totally blow away a pair of budget Phonic speakers, no matter what they're made of.

You haven't heard the Phonics. I've heard both, admittedly not side by side. The difference is nowhere as great as you think, believe me.

[Nakatomi]

Try not to rely on the countour switch too much. My Altos (and Mackies) have one & while it does rather sweeten & fatten up the sound it also results in the speaker running out of headroom quicker.

What would be wrong with running one 12 or 15" cab at a gig where you might ordinarily use a couple of 10" cabs? I'm not sure dispersion would be an issue if the place is small enough to warrant such a small setup. Or do I need my assumption corrected?

[CRAZY K]

Try not to rely on the countour switch too much. My Altos (and Mackies) have one & while it does rather sweeten & fatten up the sound it also results in the speaker running out of headroom quicker.

What would be wrong with running one 12 or 15" cab at a gig where you might ordinarily use a couple of 10" cabs? I'm not sure dispersion would be an issue if the place is small enough to warrant such a small setup. Or do I need my assumption corrected?

Must admit this is a strategy i use a lot with my Peavey UL15s.

At some venues its major overkill to have 2, so I get one speaker up nice and high in a corner on the end of the Ultimate Powered Speaker Stands or if theres a stage place it in the middle.

Works for me.:D:D:D

Most modern speakers are so loud dispersion doesnt seem to be an issue.

[Excalibur]

Try not to rely on the countour switch too much. My Altos (and Mackies) have one & while it does rather sweeten & fatten up the sound it also results in the speaker running out of headroom quicker.

Funny you should say that. :) The manual says the same thing. I had always intended to apply the necessary EQ from the controller, and not a button on the back of the cab. However, I have a cunning plan, Baldrick. Read on. ;)


What would be wrong with running one 12 or 15" cab at a gig where you might ordinarily use a couple of 10" cabs? I'm not sure dispersion would be an issue if the place is small enough to warrant such a small setup. Or do I need my assumption corrected?

Everything. It's not symetrical. ;) Also, even one 15" could look a tad imposing, for the people who hear with their eyes.


Fear not though, a solution has arrived not quite by chance. A year or two ago, before I got the 15" Proels, if the LDs needed a bit of help, but not a chuffing great pair of LD subs being propelled by a huge Studiomaster amp, I had a 15" Alto sub, which worked very nicely, thank you. Since the Proels arrived, it was surplus to requirements. It has gone North fo the Summer, and its new owner is surprised and delighted with it.
I mentioned a cunning plan. since the size of the tops has dropped to 10" or 8", I've got the chance to " do a Wayne", and downsize the sub. I have done. For reasons I won't go into, I dropped by a shop with the 12" Alto sub in. Dear reader, I bought it. ( Can't find any s/h 12" subs at sensible money on Ebay, so a new Alto it is ) That was always the plan once I'd bought the smaller cabs, but swapping the Phonics for the Altos had increased the urgency. Also, I reckoned the little Warriors would need help for all but the smallest gigs.

So, the sub should sweeten up the tops, and take the strain off them. Being 12", it's as portable as a sub can be, and it should add a bit more oomph to the system, if I need a touch more volume.

And I'd been minded to spend £900, it would have been Maui 5s. If I didn't have such a hatred of single cabs, I'd have considered that very very seriously. That has impressed me every time I've seen/heard it

[Excalibur]

Hmmm. Now mildly confused. Used the Alto tens with the twelve inch sub last night. My but the little sub has some guts. Wish the tops had as much. Turned the bass low on the sub, and full up on the tops. Still had to back the bass off a little on the mixer. Wasn't really a good test for the system, as I was basically playing across a long narrow room. I know there was a lot left in the system, particularly the sub. I'm sure that would live quite happily with the LDs above it. That would be interesting.

Next outing for the tens is planned to be a river cruise. Don't intend to take the sub, so that would show what the little fellas are capable of. Not sure if they'll be going, I'll have to check the boat size.

[CRAZY K]

Hmmm. Now mildly confused. Used the Alto tens with the twelve inch sub last night. My but the little sub has some guts. Wish the tops had as much. Turned the bass low on the sub, and full up on the tops. Still had to back the bass off a little on the mixer. Wasn't really a good test for the system, as I was basically playing across a long narrow room. I know there was a lot left in the system, particularly the sub. I'm sure that would live quite happily with the LDs above it. That would be interesting.

Next outing for the tens is planned to be a river cruise. Don't intend to take the sub, so that would show what the little fellas are capable of. Not sure if they'll be going, I'll have to check the boat size.

Sooo would this loud little Sub be any good to back up my Peavey UL15s.??????

[CRAZY K]

Sooo would this loud little Sub be any good to back up my Peavey UL15s.??????

Peter, is a speaker fest feasible round your house---or not worth it?

ALAN

[Excalibur]

Sooo would this loud little Sub be any good to back up my Peavey UL15s.??????
Apologies for late reply.
Short answer: No.
Long answer, you'd need a powerful fifteen or eighteen to keep up with those lads.


Peter, is a speaker fest feasible round your house---or not worth it?

ALAN

It's always feasible. With regards to its value, it all depends what you wish to achieve. ;) Currently, a vital bridge over the railway has collapsed for the third time, due to :muppet: engineers, planners and Newts. :mad: There is a suitable diversion, but it requires a spot of local knowledge.

[Excalibur]

Hmmm. Now mildly confused. Used the Alto tens with the twelve inch sub last night. My but the little sub has some guts. Wish the tops had as much. Turned the bass low on the sub, and full up on the tops. Still had to back the bass off a little on the mixer.
Ah. Confusion cleared by putting my glasses on and reading the manual. :o:o:o Strangely, if I understand it, the sub has a switch to engage or disengage the crossover. Curious, as it has link outputs for exactly that. :confused:
I believe my tops were thus running full range, giving extra bass. A firkle about at home later having pressed said switch gave a much more balanced sound, needing much more volume from the sub.


Next outing for the tens is planned to be a river cruise. Don't intend to take the sub, so that would show what the little fellas are capable of. Not sure if they'll be going, I'll have to check the boat size.
The Altos did indeed perform solo on this one. Fifty or sixty people on the boat, and I'd say that's around their comfortable limit. Add the sub,and you might add twenty or so to that number.

I was pleasantly happy with their performance, I turned the bass up on the mixer a tad, and they seemed to be delivering quite enough bass to me stood a fair way behind them. They may well be in use next week, as room is small, and numbers are few.

[CRAZY K]

Apologies for late reply.
Short answer: No.
Long answer, you'd need a powerful fifteen or eighteen to keep up with those lads.

.

Peter.

i Have seen ALTO TS SUB 15 advertised at £315.

600W RMS

Would one of those give me some reinforcement with the UL15s do you think?

thanks

ALAN

[Excalibur]

Peter.

i Have seen ALTO TS SUB 15 advertised at £315.

600W RMS

Would one of those give me some reinforcement with the UL15s do you think?

thanks

ALAN

Difficult to say. Some , yes. Enough? I don't know. :confused:
Much depends on what you're looking for. UL15s are fairly loud animals, and all I'd expect the 15" Alto to add is a little bottom end.

The ideal scenario is for a sub to have a bigger diameter driver than the tops, and be able to handle the low end for the tops, letting them have an easier life. Whether the Alto could do this, I just don't know, it's a suck it and see scenario.

Now this one (https://www.production-room.com/product-details/HK-Audio-Premium-PRO-18-SUB-A?gclid=CjwKEAjwxoG5BRCC7ezlzNmR8HUSJAAre36jIYORg3 t8dsWsHDvXQoGanytAs8D-8TUNgt6C-UaTghoCoHPw_wcB) I'd back to make a significant improvement.

This LD (http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/LD-Systems-GTSUB15A-15-Active-PA-Subwoofer/12A4?origin=product-ads&campaign=PLA+Shop+-+GENERIC&adgroup=GENERIC&medium=vertical_search&network=google&merchant_id=1279443&product_id=49612d1&product_country=GB&product_partition_id=140898753679&gclid=CjwKEAjwxoG5BRCC7ezlzNmR8HUSJAAre36jlWLjxauo rdny6DVQkS9tYYwS3NWQIleaeXco4fffFBoC4LXw_wcB) should outperform the Alto easily, but it's not easily portable. I've got the passives, and they're a bit unwieldy. Funnily enough, the HK doesn't seem as hard to move.

Sorry if that's not a big help, I'll nudge someone who has my old Alto sub to chip in with his two pennorth.

[deltic]

Peter.

i Have seen ALTO TS SUB 15 advertised at £315.

600W RMS

Would one of those give me some reinforcement with the UL15s do you think?

thanks

ALAN



Out of interest what do you drive the ul's with?im just curious as to why you think an Alto tssub15 is going to help,if you are driving your 15"'s correctly the alto won't keep up

[Excalibur]

Out of interest what do you drive the ul's with?im just curious as to why you think an Alto tssub15 is going to help,if you are driving your 15"'s correctly the alto won't keep up

From memory, it's a Peavey mixer amp. I suspect it's not driving the ULs to their full potential. I'd expect better results from a little Behringer or Alto mixer feeding a PV 2600 to drive those cabs. That would make the blighters sing!

[CRAZY K]

Out of interest what do you drive the ul's with?im just curious as to why you think an Alto tssub15 is going to help,if you are driving your 15"'s correctly the alto won't keep up

Usually for small to medium gigs I use the Yamaha EMX 512 SC which is amazingly loud for such a small unit, driving either 2xPeavey Pro15s, or 2xUL15s.

It can also drive Pro15s with my Peavey Subs but runs out of puff in larger venues.

For larger venues I use the Peavey XR800f+ 500WATTS RMS per channel into 4 ohms which works well with all my set ups but after January where I had 2 rather largish venues I felt that the UL15s do well but would benefit from a bit of bass reinforcement using maybe a powered sub and turning the bass down on the UL15s to get more volume.

I could buy a bigger Peavey Amp to drive the UL15s with or without subs but im reaching the age and stage where I dont really want to be spending more money on amps and lugging Peavey subs around--an add on powered sub seemed a reasonable idea as its extra sound power.

im not a Wedding DJ needing quick turn rounds or aesthetically pleasing set ups so its just about getting a balanced sound I can enjoy.

[Casual77]

Can anyone tell me if a pair of Yamaha DXS12 active subs would add anything significant to a pair of 12" active speakers (Yamaha DBR12s)? I know ideally I would pair the speakers with a pair of 15" subs but I'm thinking from a storage and transportation perspective the 12" subs would be preferable. Also, would they be stable enough to support the 12" tops on poles.

I'm assuming 12" subs would pair up nicely with the W-Audio PSR-8As for smaller gigs (right Peter?)

[Nakatomi]

Can anyone tell me if a pair of Yamaha DXS12 active subs would add anything significant to a pair of 12" active speakers (Yamaha DBR12s)? I know ideally I would pair the speakers with a pair of 15" subs but I'm thinking from a storage and transportation perspective the 12" subs would be preferable. Also, would they be stable enough to support the 12" tops on poles.

I'm assuming 12" subs would pair up nicely with the W-Audio PSR-8As for smaller gigs (right Peter?)

Likely only a little bit of extra woof with 12" tops but you'd be better with 15 inch bins. It really depends how low your tops go compared to the bins. Having the bass on the floor will help a bit though. If the crossover frequency of the sub (if it even has a crossover) can be tuned it can help match things up too. I would think that any decent retailer would let you try a couple of combinations so you can find out for sure.

[Excalibur]

I'm assuming 12" subs would pair up nicely with the W-Audio PSR-8As for smaller gigs (right Peter?)
I'd expect the Yamahas to beat the :Censored: out of those. One 12" Alto sub can overpower two Alto TS 210s, so the W-Audio are going to be no match for a pair of Yamahas. Not a match made in heaven. :(

I've not heard any Yamaha subs, but I think it would be a worthwhile fact finding exercise to stick a pair under your Yamaha tops. I know looking at data sheets isn't the whole answer, but looking at the specs, the 12" subs have a tad more power, and the same db rating. Sadly, there's only 5Hz between the low end, which doesn't indicate that the subs would make a staggering difference, but listening is the only way to tell.


Likely only a little bit of extra woof with 12" tops but you'd be better with 15 inch bins. It really depends how low your tops go compared to the bins. Having the bass on the floor will help a bit though. If the crossover frequency of the sub (if it even has a crossover) can be tuned it can help match things up too. I would think that any decent retailer would let you try a couple of combinations so you can find out for sure.

As above, only 5Hz. The only answer is to " suck it and see".

[CRAZY K]

Usually for small to medium gigs I use the Yamaha EMX 512 SC which is amazingly loud for such a small unit, driving either 2xPeavey Pro15s, or 2xUL15s.

It can also drive Pro15s with my Peavey Subs but runs out of puff in larger venues.

For larger venues I use the Peavey XR800f+ 500WATTS RMS per channel into 4 ohms which works well with all my set ups but after January where I had 2 rather largish venues I felt that the UL15s do well but would benefit from a bit of bass reinforcement using maybe a powered sub and turning the bass down on the UL15s to get more volume.

I could buy a bigger Peavey Amp to drive the UL15s with or without subs but im reaching the age and stage where I dont really want to be spending more money on amps and lugging Peavey subs around--an add on powered sub seemed a reasonable idea as its extra sound power.

im not a Wedding DJ needing quick turn rounds or aesthetically pleasing set ups so its just about getting a balanced sound I can enjoy.

Im going for a sound test at my DJ shop with an Alto 15inch powered sub to see how it fares with my UL15s and Pro 15s.

Lets see how it sounds :rolleyes:

[Nakatomi]

I'd expect the Yamahas to beat the :Censored: out of those. One 12" Alto sub can overpower two Alto TS 210s, so the W-Audio are going to be no match for a pair of Yamahas. Not a match made in heaven. :(

I've not heard any Yamaha subs, but I think it would be a worthwhile fact finding exercise to stick a pair under your Yamaha tops. I know looking at data sheets isn't the whole answer, but looking at the specs, the 12" subs have a tad more power, and the same db rating. Sadly, there's only 5Hz between the low end, which doesn't indicate that the subs would make a staggering difference, but listening is the only way to tell.



As above, only 5Hz. The only answer is to " suck it and see".

Yup I'd say so too even if the tops are 45Hz -10dB & the bins are 40Hz -3dB. There's always the difference that taking the bass load off the tops can make, but the sub would have to be much higher output to be noticeably different. Floor coupling can make a difference too.

[Casual77]

I'd expect the Yamahas to beat the :Censored: out of those. One 12" Alto sub can overpower two Alto TS 210s, so the W-Audio are going to be no match for a pair of Yamahas. Not a match made in heaven. :(

I've not heard any Yamaha subs, but I think it would be a worthwhile fact finding exercise to stick a pair under your Yamaha tops. I know looking at data sheets isn't the whole answer, but looking at the specs, the 12" subs have a tad more power, and the same db rating. Sadly, there's only 5Hz between the low end, which doesn't indicate that the subs would make a staggering difference, but listening is the only way to tell.



As above, only 5Hz. The only answer is to " suck it and see".

Hmmm.... Might have a change of plan then.

I'm toying with the idea of buying a pair of DBR10s as a smaller alternative to the DBR12s. That would mean I can sell the W Audio PSR8As and my Proel Flash 12As as the DBR10s would be a reasonable back up set. Then I could either sell my Alto TSub15 and put the money towards a pair of Yamaha subs or possibly buy another second-hand Alto sub as a cheaper short term option. I'm assuming there wouldn't be too much difference between the Alto subs and the Yamahas to justify the extra expense but ultimately it would be nice to have matching subs and tops, if only for aesthetic reasons.

[Casual77]

Yup I'd say so too even if the tops are 45Hz -10dB & the bins are 40Hz -3dB. There's always the difference that taking the bass load off the tops can make, but the sub would have to be much higher output to be noticeably different. Floor coupling can make a difference too.

I've got to admit that the significance of the frequencies and decibel ratings is a bit lost on me having not compared the sound of all that many different speakers. Presumably, adding the 12" Yamaha subs would give the sound a bit more depth compared to using the tops alone, even if the difference is not huge though, right?

Of all the gigs I've done so far, the DBR12s have generally been enough on their own but I did a large marquee wedding last summer where I felt really under-powered even with the Alto sub added. I've got about 4 similar marquee gigs booked in over the next few months so I'm thinking that adding a bit more 'oomph' would be a good idea.

[Nakatomi]

Hmmm.... Might have a change of plan then.

I'm toying with the idea of buying a pair of DBR10s as a smaller alternative to the DBR12s. That would mean I can sell the W Audio PSR8As and my Proel Flash 12As as the DBR10s would be a reasonable back up set. Then I could either sell my Alto TSub15 and put the money towards a pair of Yamaha subs or possibly buy another second-hand Alto sub as a cheaper short term option. I'm assuming there wouldn't be too much difference between the Alto subs and the Yamahas to justify the extra expense but ultimately it would be nice to have matching subs and tops, if only for aesthetic reasons.

You'd really need to hear them side by side to know for sure but I suspect the Yamahas will blow the Alto bins clean away. Is that worth doubling the price for? You decide.

[Casual77]

You'd really need to hear them side by side to know for sure but I suspect the Yamahas will blow the Alto bins clean away. Is that worth doubling the price for? You decide.

I don't need much excuse to spend money but I reckon I could pick up a decent used Alto sub for say £200 whereas it would cost me £1,000 for a pair of new Yamaha 12" subs. If it was a question of doubling the price I probably wouldn't think twice about going for the Yamahas because I suspect you're almost certainly right. It's whether I can justify four times the cost that's the question!

[Imagine]

I've not heard any Yamaha subs, but I think it would be a worthwhile fact finding exercise to stick a pair under your Yamaha tops.

OOoooooo have you got a treat coming at Coalville Peter :) (when is it by the way so I don't take any bookings this time?)

I promise to bring my DSR12/DXR8 combo along for the ride....and several boxes of tissues ;)

[Nakatomi]

I don't need much excuse to spend money but I reckon I could pick up a decent used Alto sub for say £200 whereas it would cost me £1,000 for a pair of new Yamaha 12" subs. If it was a question of doubling the price I probably wouldn't think twice about going for the Yamahas because I suspect you're almost certainly right. It's whether I can justify four times the cost that's the question!

Ahh. I'm pondering buying a 2nd DB Opera sub to go alongside my 41-15 bin.. it's only 400WRMS but my God it packs a punch. Cost of the first one.. about £160.. 2nd one.. a bit less but I'll have to travel 100 miles to get it. FWIW if my memory serves, my little bin is way louder than the TSub15.

[Casual77]

Ahh. I'm pondering buying a 2nd DB Opera sub to go alongside my 41-15 bin.. it's only 400WRMS but my God it packs a punch. Cost of the first one.. about £160.. 2nd one.. a bit less but I'll have to travel 100 miles to get it. FWIW if my memory serves, my little bin is way louder than the TSub15.

I don't have much to compare it with but I must admit I've never been blown away by the TSub15. If I could find a matching pair of second hand active subs in good cosmetic condition I'd happily move it on. The one thing the Alto has got going for it is that it's in pristine condition so I should be able to get a reasonable amount back for it.

[Excalibur]

. FWIW if my memory serves, my little bin is way louder than the TSub15.

No great surprise, as the Alto hasn't got a very big engine! ;) I do however know one member here who was persuaded to take my old Alto 15 in a deal. He thought his best course of action would be to sell it on as fast as possible. Having used it in different combinations, he's now looking to buy a second one. :)

The Alto 12 continues to impress me as well, while these subs are never going to shake the glasses off the bar at fifty paces, they do seem to add more to the sound than you'd expect. My old Class Ds were the same. I've seen subs like this described as " musical ", I'm very keen to hear Wayne's Yamaha bins, as being bandpass, they're on my " avoid" list.

Wayne, Coalville's usually a Sunday in late February. Best I can say now. Believe me mate, after hearing those Yamaha 8s last year, I looked seriously into buying a pair. Very seriously.

Allan, my 12" Alto sub is available for testing if that helps. I haven't yet put it under the 12" LDs, but the 15" Alto did indeed add to their performance.

There's no doubt that it's almost imperative that your subs have larger diameter drivers than your tops. As that wise man said " Ye cannae change the laws of Physics ". ;)

[Nakatomi]

For what it's worth I'm using my bin completely 'wrong'. It has a built in crossover but I'm not using it. My mixer output goes into the bin then I use the loop through connections to the tops. All I'm getting is augmentation of the bass. It simply can't keep up with 2 tops otherwise. With a single top I've used it with the crossover to good effect. Adding another bin, I'd likely do the same. Thing is though, do I really want a second drinks holder? Hmmm.

[Benny Smyth]

Thing is though, do I really want a second drinks holder? Hmmm.

What you need is a pair of these from Subsafe (https://www.subsafeaudio.com/).

17905

[Nakatomi]

What you need is a pair of these from Subsafe (https://www.subsafeaudio.com/).

17905
Nah my bin looks fugly enough as it is.
In about 6 gigs I've only had one glass on it, and some lottle scamp confused the glass' purchaser by spiriting it away never to be seen again. Lucky for them said scamp didn't 'enhance' their drink as punishment for being so careless ;)

[TONYTIGER]

What you need is a pair of these from Subsafe (https://www.subsafeaudio.com/).

17905

God what a old idea! i had similar to these 20 years ago made them myself

[Nakatomi]

You could, as I saw on a book of faces page a while back, just encourage young ladies to sit on your bins & play some boombastic sounds instead. Might stop them putting glasses down on top!

[DJColsie]

For what it's worth I'm using my bin completely 'wrong'. It has a built in crossover but I'm not using it. My mixer output goes into the bin then I use the loop through connections to the tops. All I'm getting is augmentation of the bass. It simply can't keep up with 2 tops otherwise. With a single top I've used it with the crossover to good effect.

That's what I do. If I use one sub I use the link output to the tops, if I use both subs I use the x-over output to the tops.

[Casual77]

Has anyone got any thoughts on the Behringer B1200D. It looks to be a similar spec to the Alto Tsub12 and the reviews on Amazon seem to be generally favourable.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-B1200D-Professional-Powered-Speaker/dp/B00DMRSY4M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1465601024&sr=8-1&keywords=b1200d

I also came across these.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stageline-254310-Active-Reflex-Subwoofer/dp/B00GOQZX74/ref=sr_1_21?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1465635016&sr=1-21&keywords=Active+subwoofer

Full spec here

http://www.discoworld.dk/product_info.php?products_id=86754)&language=en


It looks as though these are designed to be used with passive tops but presumably it would be fine to send a signal out through the stereo RCA outs to powered tops. Is that right?

Justin, you're clearly clued up on the technical specifications. Do you think either of these would do a reasonable job of augmenting the bass on the Yamaha DBR12s?

[rth_discos]

For the money you've got, I'd be looking at our German friends:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_112_suba.htm

[Casual77]

For the money you've got, I'd be looking at our German friends:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_112_suba.htm

I don't have any knowledge of the brand. Do you think they offer better bang for buck than the Behringer and IMG subs?

[rth_discos]

I don't have any knowledge of the brand. Do you think they offer better bang for buck than the Behringer and IMG subs?

I've heard good things about them.

Remember: this is a brand Thomann are selling directly. There's no middle man - Behringer etc rely on distributors, which is going to push the price up a bit.

If you had more budget, I'd be recommending going to your local dealer, as you're getting great equipment + the after sales service should you need it.

With Thomann, the risk is if it goes wrong, it's going to be more of a hassle to get back (and quite lengthy).

I saw a video yesterday of someone raving about the Thomann 18" sub they bought for hiring out, that they were surprised how good it sounded for £500.

[Excalibur]

For the money you've got, I'd be looking at our German friends:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_112_suba.htm

Why not? Only nearly twenty quid dearer than the Alto twelve inch in this country. Linky (https://new.andertons.co.uk/p/TSSUB11ACTIVE/subwoofers/alto-truesonic-tssub12-active-subwoofer):) On this occasion, they aren't necessarily the best value.



I also came across these.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stageline-254310-Active-Reflex-Subwoofer/dp/B00GOQZX74/ref=sr_1_21?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1465635016&sr=1-21&keywords=Active+subwoofer

It looks as though these are designed to be used with passive tops but presumably it would be fine to send a signal out through the stereo RCA outs to powered tops. Is that right?
They are. For this reason alone it's best ignored, unless you actually intend to run a couple of passive 8s off it. That's the short answer, the long answer just has a few more technical reasons why.


Justin, you're clearly clued up on the technical specifications. Do you think either of these would do a reasonable job of augmenting the bass on the Yamaha DBR12s?
We can look at tech specs all we like, but it will always come down to suck it and see. Yes they'll add something, but whether it's enough, well we don't know without hearing it. :confused:

In a perfect world, fifteen inch subs ( at least ) are preferable for twelve inch tops.

[Nakatomi]

What I've learned about tech specs, or LIES as they should be called is that they're for sales purposes alone and are pretty much meaningless without knowing the context they're presented in. And because they're designed to present the product in the best possible light they won't tell us.

Ooo, 128dB at one metre you say? Is that just at one frequency, for ten milliseconds or what? ;)

Take that Mackie repair I did a while back. 800 watts my ass! The LF amp is 240WRMS at 10% total harmonic distortion & the HF amp is only 100WRMS at 10% thd. And this all assumes sufficient heatsinking. Which there isn't. :rofl:

So no. Use your ears.

I confess I bought my bin blind but it was dirt cheap. Turned out to be a very good punt though.

Lastly.... I've heard The Box stuff is alright but won't rattle the optics from 20 metres away. If you want earth shattering bass you need at least 4 18" subs in mahoosive cabs end of story. Laws of physics & all that.

[Pe7e]

Lastly.... I've heard The Box stuff is alright but won't rattle the optics from 20 metres away. If you want earth shattering bass you need at least 4 18" subs in mahoosive cabs end of story. Laws of physics & all that.

I'm not so sure about that, several years ago I did a combined 18th / 21st party using 4 x Mackie SWA1501s with 2 x SA1521s turned up loud, which were shaking glasses off tables in the vicinity of the booth

[Nakatomi]

I'm not so sure about that, several years ago I did a combined 18th / 21st party using 4 x Mackie SWA1501s with 2 x SA1521s turned up loud, which were shaking glasses off tables in the vicinity of the booth
Yeah but had they been 18" bins you'd be saying WHAT TABLES.

[Casual77]

Lastly.... I've heard The Box stuff is alright but won't rattle the optics from 20 metres away. If you want earth shattering bass you need at least 4 18" subs in mahoosive cabs end of story. Laws of physics & all that.

I'd love to have some earth shattering bass but the truth is I don't have the space to store, or the inclination to lug about, a pair of huge 18" subs. I'd be happy enough with something manageable to replace my speaker tripods and add a little extra depth to the bottom end.

Incidentally Peter, I was looking at adding a pair of10" passives if I opted for the IMG but it would be useful to be able to use them with the Yamahas as well on occasion. Is there something I'm not aware of that would make that inviable? Could I run things the other way and send the signal from the Yamahas to the subs?

[rth_discos]

I'd love to have some earth shattering bass

And it depends on your application.

For a wedding, 12 inch subs are far more suitable to provide a nice bit of punch, than 18 inch subs, where the earth shattering bass will annoy grandma - yet sit very nicely ratting the ribcages at an 18th birthday.

[Casual77]

And it depends on your application.

For a wedding, 12 inch subs are far more suitable to provide a nice bit of punch, than 18 inch subs, where the earth shattering bass will annoy grandma - yet sit very nicely ratting the ribcages at an 18th birthday.

Agreed and it's the weddings I'm looking to cater for primarily. I've got four sizeable marquee weddings coming up over the next two months and I just don't think a pair of 12" tops on their own will really cut it. If I'm going to get something to add to them I'm thinking I may as well get them now when they will get some use.

[Excalibur]

And it depends on your application.

For a wedding, 12 inch subs are far more suitable to provide a nice bit of punch, than 18 inch subs, where the earth shattering bass will annoy grandma - yet sit very nicely ratting the ribcages at an 18th birthday.
Absolutely correct. :agree: Advice which some folk would do well to take on board.




Incidentally Peter, I was looking at adding a pair of10" passives if I opted for the IMG but it would be useful to be able to use them with the Yamahas as well on occasion. Is there something I'm not aware of that would make that inviable? Could I run things the other way and send the signal from the Yamahas to the subs?
OK, long answer coming up. If the Yamahas have facility to drop the low frequencies off, you could run them either way. You'd need to do this as the line output from this sub appears to be a full range link, not filtered, so active tops would thus get a full range signal, which may not be the way you want to run. I know Justin for one does this.

If you were to get a pair of passive tens, unless you wanted to buy an amp, you'd need the sub to be able to use them. Actives would be more versatile.

In the old days, running amplifiers with no load ( speakers ) could easily damage them. Nowadays I'm not sure, but it's still not good practice. If you were using the IMG sub with passive tops, you'd need some form of backup in case of failure. If you were using active tops and a sub, if the sub ceased to function, you could ( probably ) carry on without it with a spot of rewiring.

Re using them with your Yamahas, again you'll need an amp of some sort, as the Yamahas don't have the facility to drive a passive cab like LD and HK can do.

They may easily do what you want, but not as elegantly and easily as other options.

[Casual77]

Absolutely correct. :agree: Advice which some folk would do well to take on board.


OK, long answer coming up. If the Yamahas have facility to drop the low frequencies off, you could run them either way. You'd need to do this as the line output from this sub appears to be a full range link, not filtered, so active tops would thus get a full range signal, which may not be the way you want to run. I know Justin for one does this.

If you were to get a pair of passive tens, unless you wanted to buy an amp, you'd need the sub to be able to use them. Actives would be more versatile.

In the old days, running amplifiers with no load ( speakers ) could easily damage them. Nowadays I'm not sure, but it's still not good practice. If you were using the IMG sub with passive tops, you'd need some form of backup in case of failure. If you were using active tops and a sub, if the sub ceased to function, you could ( probably ) carry on without it with a spot of rewiring.

Re using them with your Yamahas, again you'll need an amp of some sort, as the Yamahas don't have the facility to drive a passive cab like LD and HK can do.

They may easily do what you want, but not as elegantly and easily as other options.

Thanks for that Peter

I generally do the same as Justin and run a full signal to my tops because I prefer the fuller sound and feel that the Yamahas can cope with whatever is thrown at them. Fate works in strange ways though and my plans have changed again. I got in from a family wedding in Dorset last night and someone had newly listed a pair of used Alto Tsub12s on eBay so I put in an offer and he thankfully accepted. I'm just en route to Devizes (which fortunately happens to be pretty much on my route home) to hopefully pick them up. I'm just hoping he gets my message in the next hour because he's not expecting me today and I've got no idea what the collection address is!

[Nakatomi]

Did I say you need earth shattering bass at a wedding?

I'm really impressed by my little Db bin. It fared very well last night with the material I chucked at it. The bassline of kevin Lyttle's Turn Me On sounded lovely. Pity about the vocal like but hey. Granted I push it fairly hard. At peak time the limit LED flashes with the beat but I make sure the tops dont hit their limiter too.

[CRAZY K]

Thanks for that Peter

I generally do the same as Justin and run a full signal to my tops because I prefer the fuller sound and feel that the Yamahas can cope with whatever is thrown at them. Fate works in strange ways though and my plans have changed again. I got in from a family wedding in Dorset last night and someone had newly listed a pair of used Alto Tsub12s on eBay so I put in an offer and he thankfully accepted. I'm just en route to Devizes (which fortunately happens to be pretty much on my route home) to hopefully pick them up. I'm just hoping he gets my message in the next hour because he's not expecting me today and I've got no idea what the collection address is!

Let us know how the Altos sound, im hoping to sound test a 15 this coming week, I know Peter isnt too keen--ill see what my ears think.:eek:

[Casual77]

Let us know how the Altos sound, im hoping to sound test a 15 this coming week, I know Peter isnt too keen--ill see what my ears think.:eek:


Yes will do. I have picked them up today and they look to be immaculate and a bit of a bargain for what I paid for them. I've just invested in a pair of K&M speaker poles which will hopefully arrive tomorrow and I'll be able to give them a proper sound test.

I already own a Tsub15 and would say it is solid if unspectacular. I considered buying a second one so I could have a matching pair but there's no way I would get a pair of them in my car along with the rest of my gear. Hopefully the smaller 12"s will do a reasonable job and if not I'm sure I can move them on for what I paid for them.