The Businessman/Businesswoman vs. The Human Being

[Benny Smyth]

There's a venue that I work at regularly which has finish times of either midnight or 1am. Recently, I've had a fair few enquiries where I've been asked the question what would be the best time to finish and, coincidentally, all of these are weddings that are on the 'none-prime' days of the week (Sundays through to Wednesdays).

Every time, I suggest a midnight finish (I would actually rather suggest 11pm finishes, but alas, that option isn't presented) for the obvious reasons. I tell them that the businessman in me would happily take the extra fee, but the human in me would rather that they finish stronger earlier, and use that money that would have been added to my fee towards another aspect of their wedding.

All of those clients thank me for my honesty and go with my suggestion but it's got me thinking a bit - how would others approach that scenario?

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I've had midweek weddings where people were itching to throw some shapes pre first dance and likewise dull as dishwater ones on Saturday. With that in mind I only advise about finishing times but it really comes down to the personalities at the wedding (therefore leaving it to the B&G's judgement).

The business side of things I'm happy with the basic rate that I charge and only add on post midnight hours. I had a midweek wedding recently when they forgot to tell me they extended it to 1 am (ie the bar) but I didn't mention it even though it was a "tough" gig (they had also booked uplighting so it was a decent payer).

[Excalibur]

All of those clients thank me for my honesty and go with my suggestion but it's got me thinking a bit - how would others approach that scenario?

With arm outstretched, palm facing upwards, and a look of supplication, humility, and expectation on my face. ;)


OK, The serious answer. I'm not sure that in your case the two are mutually exclusive, and perhaps not even for the venue.
Playing from 11.45 till 1am to B&G, four drunks and the table which has sat in the corner for six hours does nothing for your humour or enthusiasm. If the bar has only sold three pints of lager and an orange juice, I'm guessing they've not covered their costs either.

I used to be resident in a venue with a 1am finish policy, and I'm telling you, pacing weddings to run to that time was not easy, sometimes. Often some guests can have travelled from afar, dictating an early set off from home, with young offspring adding to the stress, and they'll either want to get into their hotel beds or ride home as soon as possible. Weddings often mean long days for many guests.

Finishing on a high is surely always better than watching it fade to a very low key end. Isn't it? :confused:

And then you'll get the midweek one which could have run till dawn. ( But very rarely ) ;)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I have had some midweek corkers to be honest but I have also had some where it's almost as if some of the guests can't wait for it to finish. It may be because they've had a long day or have to work the following day?

Midweek weddings (Sunday - Thursday) at a couple of my regular venues are 11.30pm finish and I think it's about right personally although it is still too late for others.
11.00pm sounds too early to us but to them it may be perfect.

I think the most important thing is that the function (whatever it may be but especially a wedding) finishes on a high and isn't dragged out simply because they've paid for the duration.

I always quote for 4hrs - 4.5hrs and so if it was an early finish then I'd simply start earlier and give them their money's worth. If starting earlier wasn't possible because of a wedding breakfast finishing late then I'd quote accordingly.

[ckpr2]

I once did a Christmas gig working with a band.
The band cleared off about midnight.
I played until 1am then thanked everyone for coming and hoped to see them again soon.
A young lad came up and said if we have a whip round will you play for a little longer.
I said no problem.

I later set about packing up and he came up again and asked me to play a bit longer.
I ended up finishing at 4am.

After packing up I went outside to a good depth of snow.
On the way home I got the car stuck in snow.
So I turned around and headed back into Kendal and found my way to the motorway which was fairly clear.
I eventually got in around 6am.

[ukpartydj]

I probably wouldn't advise them on the end time as it's hard to know unless you know the people.

If they can I always advise booking until late and then finishing when they feel it's a good time on the night.

Businessman tick.
Human tick.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

I'm happy enough with my prices to not bother either way if I add a supplement on for finishing late - to be honest, most of the time I'd rather not take the money and chock off early.

But back to the question - it really depends on the crowd.

One of the best gigs I've done in the past few years was a Monday in December with a 1am finish and quite an "eclectic" choice of music from the couple.

End of the night the room was still packed and they were wanting me to play on even longer and one guest even mistook me for another DJ at a wedding fayre a while later and commented on how good a night it had been :D

On the flipside - Midnight is more than enough for a lot of weddings on a Friday or Saturday so you can never really tell.

The only time I'll try to put my ideas across is if they're going for a stupid end time like a 3am in a city centre venue with lots of pubs and clubs selling drink much cheaper next door or something similar.

[Excalibur]

If they can I always advise booking until late and then finishing when they feel it's a good time on the night.

Businessman tick.
Human tick.
Ah yes. The good old " It's £xxx.00 until 1am, but if I pack up at 9.15, it's still £xxx.00 "
I would prefer:


I'm happy enough with my prices to not bother either way if I add a supplement on for finishing late - to be honest, most of the time I'd rather not take the money and clock off early.
as not charging for something you haven't done seems fairer to me.



The only time I'll try to put my ideas across is if they're going for a stupid end time like a 3am in a city centre venue with lots of pubs and clubs selling drink much cheaper next door or something similar.

For the purposes of this scenario, I was assuming the venue not to be surrounded by other licensed entertainment venues. In that position, I'd go for a relatively early finish, as anyone wanting to boogie till dawn would have the option of going elsewhere.

[mattydj50]

My hotel "residency" insist on selling weddings in the main function room until 1am "because no other venue locally carry on until 1am".

When I suggested that they might ask the question "why do you think that is" they looked bemused.

Fortunately, one of the three banqueting managers there has a bit about him so he got to interrogate the electronic till system which showed that virtually every night, hardly any drinks were sold in the half hour before last orders when, a small rush came (depending on how many people were there).

Based on the fact that there are 4 or 5 staff involved, plus keeping the room opem for the extra 30 minutes, he has been trying to persuade the venue to reduce the standard finish to 12.30 (bar close at midnight).

Last Sunday was a case in pont. Starting with 96 day guests at 6.30 (when I wa allowed in to set up), by the time I pressed "play" half had gone home! This is in a room capable of holding over 250, so you can see, it was looking a bit bare.

A few extra evening guests came but at 10pm we had 24 left. By 1045, that was 13, all sat round the table furthest away from me. Weeds were starting to grow through the dancefloor and my will to live had packed its suitcase and was on its way to the airport for some excitement in North Korea.

The venue manager poked her head round the door and walked straight out again.

10 minutes later she had managed to get B&G together (she didn't like speaking to one without the other) and told me that they said they were fine, just sat there listening to the music. I had gone into "radio mode" by then as any chance of them dancing was in my will to live's suitcase.

So, after another 25 minutes, she came back over to say that the five people left (B&G plus 3 others) were going to bed. There is a God, I thought.

I've seen function managers start clearing table cloths, stacking chairs, even opening outside doors to drop hints. Sometimes I do a "false ending" with a couple of slowies and the First Dance again, before everyone gets the last bus! I also "remind" them that though the function bar will be closing "soon", the resident's bar will remain open for you to get a late drink.

Fortunately the staff are of similar beliefs, they want to go home too, but the art of course, is not to make the guests feel that you are chucking them out, even when you are!

One good thing there is that there is never any chance of overtime. if its a 1am finish, that's the end, "one more" or not. 0.0005 of a second after the last song finishes, 2,000,000 watts (sorry, lumens) of house lights come on, courtesy of the function manager, who naturally I direct any complaints to!

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Is the hotel part of a big chain?

UKPartyDJ will know the one I am talking about but down the end of my road is a hotel that's part of a big chain and it's where I supplied the Discos for around 5 years before they started getting funny about the pricing and attempted bartering with me...

Anyway, they are / were the same with the duration and went along the lines of finishing at 01.00am on Friday's and Saturday's (also Christmas parties if I remember correctly, even midweek ones but that may have changed now).

There have been many times when I have driven past (even stopped to have a look through the window a few times), and the Disco has been playing to an almost empty room. I said exactly the same thing when I was there about the duration and I got the same reply too in that "None of the other hotels do it".

[ukpartydj]

Is the hotel part of a big chain?

UKPartyDJ will know the one I am talking about but down the end of my road is a hotel that's part of a big chain and it's where I supplied the Discos for around 5 years before they started getting funny about the pricing and attempted bartering with me...

Anyway, they are / were the same with the duration and went along the lines of finishing at 01.00am on Friday's and Saturday's (also Christmas parties if I remember correctly, even midweek ones but that may have changed now).

There have been many times when I have driven past (even stopped to have a look through the window a few times), and the Disco has been playing to an almost empty room. I said exactly the same thing when I was there about the duration and I got the same reply too in that "None of the other hotels do it".

I was thinking of that venue when reading matty's post! Haha the amount of times I would entertain 3/4 people for a hour at the end (essentially in ipod mode). The police came in once and questioned nearly every person in the venue around 11pm... But I was asked to continue haha! The atmosphere was killed obvouisly, really pointless.

I'm glad I don't do that one anymore :)

Back to the original point... Joking aside I will normally say you can pay maybe £30 more for an extra hour if you book in advance if you decide on the night just before I pack up £50. I won't ever push for more hours it's entirely up to them but I guess the old insurance policy style pricing is a bit businessman esque.

[Excalibur]

Back to the original point... Joking aside I will normally say you can pay maybe £30 more for an extra hour if you book in advance if you decide on the night just before I pack up £50.

And then the party dies a natural death before the extension kicks in, and the client has paid for an hour he didn't get. I prefer Jim's method, I think.

[Excalibur]

Never mind :beer1:1am, it's 9.30, and I'm down to twenty people. Booked till 11.30, but I'm not betting on getting that far. It's a toss up who wants them all to go home more, me or the staff. :(

Update: Sixteen

Ten pm, ten people.

[ukpartydj]

And then the party dies a natural death before the extension kicks in, and the client has paid for an hour he didn't get. I prefer Jim's method, I think.

That's the theory! I've never had a party die before the extention though. Probably because it's not an extention unless they got a quote then changed their minds... It's just normal hours which would be charged accordingly if I consider it to be more than normal.

I don't think clients are all that bothered about a few quid anyway for the insurance they have you until they need you.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

And then the party dies a natural death before the extension kicks in, and the client has paid for an hour he didn't get. I prefer Jim's method, I think.

Case in point - last night.

It was a bit of a strange one - wedding ceremony at 4 followed by a finger buffet meal type thing so the times were pretty whacked out.

I asked the bar what the chat was for calling last orders - "half 12, bar shuts at quarter to, music off at one."

Not a problem my good man, I'm only booked until 12.

Because of the timings things didn't kick off until around 9 once I'd got the 1st dance and father daughter out of the way.

As we got to around 11 I collared the groom (the bride was about 2 and a half bottles of prosecco deep at this point and dancing her wee heart out to anything I played so I left her be) and gave him the score - bars open till 1, I'm only booked till 12 and that's probably a good finish time without folk being rushed out but if he wants me to stay on I will for £x.

We went for the 12 finish, I was able to pack up at a reasonably mellow rate and the guy appreciated that a. I hadn't charged him for a 1am finish when the night was probably never going to make it that far and b. I'd been honest with him about my opinion on when to finish instead of trying to rinse him for an extra couple of quid that would have been a waste.


As I said before, we're in business but if you're charging enough from the outset - you don't need to be trying to weedle extra cash out through later finishes you really can't be arsed with and isn't in your clients best interests.

I was home and in the hot tub with my own bottle of prosecco by half 1 :D

[Excalibur]

We went for the 12 finish, I was able to pack up at a reasonably mellow rate and the guy appreciated that a. I hadn't charged him for a 1am finish when the night was probably never going to make it that far and b. I'd been honest with him about my opinion on when to finish instead of trying to rinse him for an extra couple of quid that would have been a waste.


As I said before, we're in business but if you're charging enough from the outset - you don't need to be trying to weedle extra cash out through later finishes you really can't be arsed with and isn't in your clients best interests.
Amen to all of the above. :agree:

I
was home and in the hot tub with my own bottle of prosecco by half 1 :D
Ner ner. :p I was in bed by midnight, thoroughly fed up. Details in Good Gig, Bad Gig shortly.

[mattydj50]

Never mind :beer1:1am, it's 9.30, and I'm down to twenty people. Booked till 11.30, but I'm not betting on getting that far. It's a toss up who wants them all to go home more, me or the staff. :(

Update: Sixteen

Ten pm, ten people.

Sounds very familiar!

Yes it is a chain hotel but we also have a Grade 2 listed, 17th Century Manor House in th e grouinds for smaller weddings and that's where I was last night.

Trouble was, there was around 90 guests for the evening in a room that holds maximum 75 (plus disco and dancefloor). Ah, so where are the 4 piece rock band with enough equipment to fill the Royal Albert Hall going then?

Up your end (I ought to rephrase that maybe) said the function manager. What, you mean the 6 square feet between me and the dancefloor, that was at the far end from the door and would have meant that they couldn't have packed up or left until fional finish? I tipped the band off and carried on setting up in my allotted space.

Oh, we were also running over 30 minutes late due to some bike race that whizzed by earlier.

So, Mrs Function Manager had her head up her rear end, the band, groom and best man negotiated, the outcome was that the band would set up at the other end of the (fairly small) room. So, from my end, you had DJ & Dancefloor, tables for 36 guests and band (who probably had at least a quarter of the room).

Supposed to begin at 7.00, we finally got going at 8.05. Band supposed to come on at 7.45, first dance at 8.30 buffet straight after. Nobody seemed to have a clue what was going on and guests were milling around the building. The bar is two rooms away and the photobooth was in the next room, sweet cart and table games in the foyer. So at 8.20, they decide to do the first dance. Except that no-one had told me what it was.

Turned out it was an accoustic version of Don't Stop Believing that the groom had on his phone. OK, I thought, blind eye etc. But had anyone thought to tel me that either? So did anyone have a connectiong lead to patch the phone to my mixer? Well, yes, I found one in my bag of bits.

He then showed me how rget it to play on his phone, except that it wouldn't. Then the phone went to sleep and he had to re-enter the PIN number. I'm havong none of this so I got the best man to come and be phone operator. Bingo. But..... gthe recording quality left a lot to be desired and h output was so quiet, that, even on full gain the mixer couldn't get it loud enough.

Bride then asked what was going on so I told her straight.

Have you got e-mail, the groom asked. I had my laptop with me (don't DJ with it, still use CD's but that's another story), so he e-mailed me the file. After what seemed like ages, it appeared and I downloaded it onto the laptop. A quick tweak with my Sound Forge software dot a decent file. I hooked the laptop up to the mixer, pressed play, cued the headphones. Perfect.

So, 15 minutes late, we did the first dance. I was just about to announce the buffet straight after whern the bride came over and said I had to play Thriller because her nephew wanted to dance. He was dressed like Michael Jackson, so I thought it best to delay the buffet even more to do this. So I dug out Thriller, stuck it on and, he was actually very good.

Meanwhile, Mrs Manager came and wanted to know why I hadn't announced the buffet. Blame the bride I said. By now it was 8.45, so off they trooped (4 rooms away for the buffet). The B&G had brought their own deserts in (for the evening) and I've never seen so many cakes, cup cakes, trifles, pots, fruit, cream, the list was endless.

I sought out the band who were enjoying well earned pints after their long and hard set up and they decided that they would start at 9.30. So at 9.30 they asked me to turn my sound up so they woudn't sound much louder when they came on. 3 minutes later they asked for it to go up even further. And again...

By this time, I'd gone as far as I wanted to so I just smiled. At 9.40, I introduced the band and "kerrrannnnngggggsshhhhh" - Thin Lizzy's "Boys are back in town" struck up. Hmm, thought I, that's a bit high on the decibelometer (thankfully, no limiter in this building).

So they finished their 45 minute set some 35 minutes later. 10.15. They'll be back in 20-30 minutes said I.

It was like I'd pressed the fire bell. Virtually everyone left to go to the bar. Poor bar staff (2 of them) I thought. Oh well. After about 20 minutes playing to around 15 people who were either deaf or paralysed from the waist down a few of the more active guests came back in. Soul Banana anyone? Did the trick anyway.

Eventually, aroiund 11pm the band reappeared and started again. They had obviously found 12 on their gain controls because I suddenly fely my ears beginning to bleed. Thank heavens for headphones. I also noticed some of the more "maturer" guests get up to leave, tutting as they went.

SO 5 minutes later the "last song" was done. Except that the lead singer announced that there was two more. Oh, any by the way, the bar has called last orders. I guess no-one believed him because no-one left the dancefloor. So Sweet Child of Mine (long version) and Robbie's Angels were belted out. My wife, 7 miles away at home said she thought she heard them. They handed back to me dead on midnight.

I had just spotted the bar girl come out of the bar door carrying the till tray full om money. That's the bar shut I told everybody. You thought I had announced the end of the world!

Just before the band had come back on , the groom had asked me for Okey Cokey and Music Man. So off we went. The bride's mum had asked the band to play Toploader. Never heard of them said they. Fortunately, I had! So that pleased her.

By now its 12.15 and, with a 12.30 finish, there's not much left to do. I got the bride to drag her husband back on the floor to reprise the first dance and said my goodnights. Just as I was about to finisn, grooms dad leant over and asked me if I had Amarillo. Er, no, said I, smiling away.

So, sounds off, lights on and not one person said thank you. Band were packing up at their end and they buggered off without a word.

That's the thing about being a "resident" for a chain hotel, communication. There ain't none. Hotel have been told many times, first dances supplied MUST be on original CD or legally downloaded to a USB stick. If not, tell me what is required at least 7 days before, otherwise there is no guarantee it will get played. But the sales team/ wedding co-ordinator are never there on the night so the Mrs Manager has to deal with all the flak. However, decision making ios not her strongest point.

Hey ho, here's to next Friday night then a week's holiday in sunny (I hope) Cornwall.

[Excalibur]

That's the thing about being a "resident" for a chain hotel, communication. There ain't none. Hotel have been told many times, first dances supplied MUST be on original CD or legally downloaded to a USB stick. If not, tell me what is required at least 7 days before, otherwise there is no guarantee it will get played. But the sales team/ wedding co-ordinator are never there on the night so the Mrs Manager has to deal with all the flak. .

I hear what you say. Loud and clear. I was that DJ. :bang:

Do you know what the best part of your story was? :confused:



The fact that it didn't happen to me. :Laugh:

Sorry about that, but just now it really made me smile. And wince as well, cos next time it might be me. :(

[Nakatomi]

With regard to communication & being a resident... what I've learned over the course of a few months is this: If there's no communication about the event other than what it is & when it's because the customer hasn't considered it important enough to get in touch. That's perfectly fine by me up to a point. Which point? Utterly depends on the customer. I used to fret about not being told details in advance but now I just go & see somebody as soon as I'm all set up.

Also remember communication is a two way street. I get on the venue's case about upcoming events & they tell me all they've been told, which generally isn't very much. Do people bother filling in the wedding disco questionnaire they're given? No, not really.

As much as it pains some of us, not all people see the evening entertainment as vitally important. I didn't when I got married, and I'd been a DJ a long time by then (though I probably had a very dim view of wedding DJs & discos). I at least had the foresight to take our first dance on CD incase the bloke standing behind the CD players didn't have it. I often see DJs moaning that the dead brightly coloured organic matter got paid more than they did. Well, if you're not gonna sit on every table making it look prettier what do you expect?

[mattydj50]

I hear what you say. Loud and clear. I was that DJ. :bang:

Do you know what the best part of your story was? :confused:



The fact that it didn't happen to me. :Laugh:

Sorry about that, but just now it really made me smile. And wince as well, cos next time it might be me. :(

I bet there are quite a few out there going "yep, been there done that (or not as the case may be).

Don't get me wrong, I keep firing off e-mails, calls and visiting the hotel with requests for information and I get nothing on many an occasion. I'm not supposed to supply unless I get a Purchase Order Number from the venue. Like I told the General Manager only last week, around 25% of his weddings would not take place and New Year's Eve last year would have been a quiet night!!

I'm not afraid to tell a bride and groom that I haven't received any confirmation or correspondence from the hotel and that's where th e problem lies. SO far, touch wood, stroke 4 leaf clover etc., I've always been able to sort things out, because I can somehow. So, unfortunately, the hotel gets let off the hook and nobody there bothers to deal with the problem because its gone away. Until next time.

I don't get B&G contact details (Data Protection Act the hotel say) as a rule, I have asked but... Some do contact me direct and that does make life easier

Heads and brick walls come to mind. Still, it keeps me on my toes I guess.