Microphone questions

[fullcontact68]

Hi Guys,

I've a couple of questions relating to mics:

1) Karaoke. Currently using a Chord 4 channel wireless set for karaoke, with individual levels.
Every now and then I get a group of singers, where one likes to be very loud, even seeming to shout down the mic, where others could be really quiet.

It's a PITA trying to maintain gain levels for 4 singers, trying to remember who is on what colour mic, and adjust them (sometimes needed quickly when shouting down the mics)

I'm wondering if there is a simply way to have some sort of Auto gain control for mics, so the quiet singers can be amplified, and the loud singers, attenuated (all automatically)

2) Ducking. I like having the ability to duck, save messing with sliders, but on my MC6000, when ducking is in use it ducks too much. (So I don't currently use the feature).

Is there a way to have adjustable duckling levels, are there any mixers/controllers which support it?

Is there a mixer/controller which would sort both my questions out?

TIA

[DJ Jules]

I'm hoping others might have better memories than me here... but generally you won't see Compression (Auto Gain Control) on a mixer with ducking because Compression is a feature aimed at bands and live performers and ducking is generally used by DJ's. The two worlds don't often collide :D I think there was a software update available for the Denon to resolve an issue with ducking (but I can't remember if it was to increase or decrease the amount!)

The Yamaha mixers (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-mg16-16-channel-mixer-with-compression) had compressors built into the mic channels which would sort out your shouty singers. Doing a quick google the Mackie ONYX series also have them.

Sorry I can't be of more help... hopefully someone else will be along soon with a magic mixer to solve all of your issues :D

Julian

[yourdj]

Would something like this do the job?
Keeps each mic in check and wont cut out the other ones if someone shouts into it.

I don't know whether foam would make a difference to the mic sensitivity also?

18361

[fullcontact68]

Would something like this do the job?
Keeps each mic in check and wont cut out the other ones if someone shouts into it.

I don't know whether foam would make a difference to the mic sensitivity also?

18361

Looks like a good option.

[yourdj]

Looks like a good option.

Probably cheap too and will work with your current mic thing as i think thats rack mountable? :)

[fullcontact68]

If only my chord receiver had mounts on...... Yes, an option to look at, could leave wired up then in a rack :)

[rth_discos]

Just be aware that once you start adding compressors in to the chain, you have less headroom before feedback kicks in, because of the way a compressor works.

You are moving more towards sound engineering territory - although it's worth learning, as you get a far better sound out of a processed mic then one just "raw".

All of the mics on live stages will be processed, with eq, compressors and gates. It can make a big difference to the sound - positively when set up well, but equally, badly when set up wrong!

[fullcontact68]

What's the simplest option here (without hovering over all 4 gain controls on the receiver, hoping to get the correct one at the correct time)

Ideally a plug-n-play solution :)

[Nakatomi]

Personally I'd leave them to it.

Anyway your best bet is to take 4 outs from the receiver to a small PA mixer & mix them properly. Mark the mic colours on the mixer channels.

As for ducking - I can't ducking stand ducking. It's never sounded good on anything. What's so hard about sliding a fader once in a while?! :O

[Excalibur]

Personally I'd leave them to it.

Anyway your best bet is to take 4 outs from the receiver to a small PA mixer & mix them properly. Mark the mic colours on the mixer channels.

As for ducking - I can't ducking stand ducking. It's never sounded good on anything. What's so hard about sliding a fader once in a while?! :O

:agree:
Yes, I do use the summed output of the Chord into a mic channel on the VMS, when I'm offering what I call " Karaoke Lite ", ie the big mixer stays at home, and I can still use the Micromax. Mainly for when Karaoke is alleged to be secondary to the disco.

Nothing beats having the enhanced capabilities of a dedicated mixer though, as long as it has faders, FX, and enough channels. ( Mute buttons don't hurt, either. ) :)

[yourdj]

What's so hard about sliding a fader once in a while?! :O

I dont even think about doing that now when i talk on the microphone. Much better to choose when to duck the music relating to what you are saying, when and the volume relating to the room and whats going on at the time.

[DJ Jules]

Mute buttons don't hurt, either. :)

How do you survive Karaoke with a mute button? In all seriousness... absolutely essential for cutting idiots who think they're going to rap over backing music inbetween tracks, or make impromptu speeches.

Julian

[Nakatomi]

I dont even think about doing that now when i talk on the microphone. Much better to choose when to duck the music relating to what you are saying, when and the volume relating to the room and whats going on at the time.

It pains me that so many DJs can't or just don't duck music properly. It seems to go between not doing it at all & just flicking the fader down on syllables. Me? Oh I was a proper sad little individual, practising talking over tracks for hours on end when I first started. So I'm (sort of) a natural at it now :cry: Denon's MC series ducking isn't the worst I've ever heard - it'd certainly be OK for kids parties etc where you're not behind the console - though the last kids party I did I still did the ducking with my tablet remote control :D

[yourdj]

It pains me that so many DJs can't or just don't duck music properly. It seems to go between not doing it at all & just flicking the fader down on syllables. Me? Oh I was a proper sad little individual, practising talking over tracks for hours on end when I first started. So I'm (sort of) a natural at it now :cry: Denon's MC series ducking isn't the worst I've ever heard - it'd certainly be OK for kids parties etc where you're not behind the console - though the last kids party I did I still did the ducking with my tablet remote control :D

Its where the Peter Kay 'mmmhmhmhmhm - ha ha' ha comes from as DJ's talk over the music playing and never have the inclination to video themselves from the other side of the room and realise no one can hear a word they are saying. One of my DJ's used to do it an no matter how much I told him to duck the music, almost to nothing at points of an announcement, he never did. :)

[rth_discos]

Denon's MC series ducking isn't the worst I've ever heard

I was pleasantly surprised by it - certainly for when you're doing stuff away from the booth, it works.

I remember having the ducking feature on my first mixer in the late 90s. It had two issues: 1 it was overly sensitive - just holding the mic made it start ducking, and 2, it was very slow to recover - so you'd hear it fade back up over a period of 5 seconds.

So from that I never used ducking, and always used the fader. But handy to have a reasonably good ducking feature on the mc6000mk2 for any time I'm away from the booth.

[DazzyD]

Personally I'd leave them to it.

Anyway your best bet is to take 4 outs from the receiver to a small PA mixer & mix them properly. Mark the mic colours on the mixer channels.

As for ducking - I can't ducking stand ducking. It's never sounded good on anything. What's so hard about sliding a fader once in a while?! :O


:agree:
Yes, I do use the summed output of the Chord into a mic channel on the VMS, when I'm offering what I call " Karaoke Lite ", ie the big mixer stays at home, and I can still use the Micromax. Mainly for when Karaoke is alleged to be secondary to the disco.

Nothing beats having the enhanced capabilities of a dedicated mixer though, as long as it has faders, FX, and enough channels. ( Mute buttons don't hurt, either. ) :)

Which is why I always used 12+ channel mixers. Enough for music, karaoke and several mics at one. Colour-coded cable connectors so I always knew which mic was controlled by which slider! :)

[fullcontact68]

Following on......

Xmas eve I had a disco/karaoke. No issues with the disco side :), but....

For the karaoke, I was running 4 channels, using the single output from the Chord into MC6000.

Absolute nightmare. I was constantly twiddling with individual gains on each mic channel, trying to adjust for each singer, some really quiet, some really loud.

The main issue was with the loud singers, altered the gain to use above min on the receiver, and still too hot, massive distortion. Had a few complaints regarding sound quality, and venue not too happy either.


So, I've invested in the Multicom pro 4600, this seems to do the trick when tested with my ZMX122. Nice clean signal as expected. However, via the MC6000, still way to hot and distorted.
Looks like I'll not be using my MC6000 when karaoke is involved. (Too small a budget to mess around with setting up two mixers etc)

I've now a question regarding to the wiring on the Multicom....

The documentation shows plugging the mics into the mixer then using TRS inserts to link to the 4600. My current mixer does not have insert capabilities.

So my question is, can the mics be plugged into the 4600, then the outputs feeding the mixer? (This is what I did in my test), or should the mics plug into the mixer as stated?
I'm guessing this is so the 4600 is using the signal with the channel gain applied from the mixer, feeding the gain controlled signal back into the mixer?

Are there any pros/cons of wiring mic -> 4600 -> Mixer, against mic -> mixer -> 4600

Many thanks
Edward.

[rth_discos]

. However, via the MC6000, still way to hot and distorted.

If this is the original MC6000, the mic inputs were famously hot.

I have the MC6000mk2 and it's great.

You may find an XLR attenuator solves your problem.

Someone who has done this on the MC6000 will know how many dbs to reduce by, but essentially you're looking at something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/10db-Line-Balanced-Attenuator-Adapter/dp/B0075469L8

[fullcontact68]

I've tried an attenuator before, (quite a while ago, don't think I had much success, but my memory is crap recently), and Yes, it's a Mk1.

I would have thought that using the gain control on the wireless receiver would reduce the signal strength into the MC6000, hence not tried putting an attenuator inline. Would it make a difference?

[Excalibur]

If this is the original MC6000, the mic inputs were famously hot.

I have the MC6000mk2 and it's great.

You may find an XLR attenuator solves your problem.


From what I've heard and experienced, I think the actual phrase is " Less bad ". :(

Large Live/FOH mixers are falling in price for quality ones nowadays. Cheap doesn't necessarily mean Behringer nowadays. Since moving from Behringer to Peavey, there's been a marked improvement in my Karaoke.

Dazzy is half right about using a live mixer with colour coded mics. Trouble is, you can't identify the shouty ones fast enough, usually. It does help though if you only have to lower the gain on the channel with the flashing red light in front of your face! :)

You can easily carry on using the 6000 with karaoke, just run every mic from the Live mixer, and feed the 6000 into a tape input. That means you only use the faders on the 6000, and don't have any on the live mixer to get confused with.

[rth_discos]

If you want to do Karaoke properly, take a look at something like this:

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/digital-mixing-desk/behringer-x-air-xr12-mix-rack

It comes with processing on each channel - meaning you can properly eq, compress and reverb each channel (each mic)

You'll find the gate and compression will really help with levelling out each singer's volume.

For the price, and the functionality, it's a bargain.



You can easily carry on using the 6000 with karaoke, just run every mic from the Live mixer, and feed the 6000 into a tape input.

And to contradict Excalibur, I'd run the MC6000 in to the live mixer, and take your feed from the live mixer in to your amp/speakers.

[Excalibur]

You can easily carry on using the 6000 with karaoke, just run every mic from the Live mixer, and feed the 6000 into a tape input. That means you only use the faders on the 6000, and don't have any on the live mixer to get confused with.




And to contradict Excalibur, I'd run the MC6000 in to the live mixer, and take your feed from the live mixer in to your amp/speakers.

You're not contradicting, you're misunderstanding. I thought that's exactly what I'd suggested, but evidently something got lost in translation. :confused: :daft:

Connect the live mixer to the speakers. Plug all the microphones into the live mixer. Plug the 6000 output into a tape input on the live mixer. That stops you having an extra fader to contend with, which can be confusing. That's usually how I do it.

[rth_discos]

You're not contradicting, you're misunderstanding. I thought that's exactly what I'd suggested, but evidently something got lost in translation. :confused: :daft:


You're absolutely right! I mis-read what you had written!! :daft::daft:

[Nakatomi]

IMHO the last thing you want to do on a karaoke mic channel is compress it - you stand a risk of vastly reducing the gain you can achieve before feedback.

I've said this to kara operators before & I'll say it again - it's their own stupid fault if they can't use a mic properly - if they hold it too far away (like they see on telly where it's a dummy handheld) it won't pick up loudly enough.

Now as for levels - you really do need a 'proper' mic mixer for more than 2 mics where you're not dealing with competent mic users.

Other points to note about most radio mic receivers - they don't usually output MIC level & are much nearer line level - so plugging them into a mic input.. erm.... Some can be turned down to be nearer mic level without problems - my KAM KWM1960 mk2 can be turned down for sure but as you turn it down towards 1 the audio starts to become lost in background hiss.

[rth_discos]

Just come across this mixer today.

4 x mic channels, each with basic compression on each channel

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/analogue-mixing-desk/behringer-xenyx-1204usb-pa-and-studio-mixer


IMHO the last thing you want to do on a karaoke mic channel is compress it - you stand a risk of vastly reducing the gain you can achieve before feedback.

When set properly, compression is a massive help.

I don't do karaoke, but I do a lot of wedding speeches.

I use a LOT of compression on the mic. That way, as the mic gets moved about closer and further away from the mouth, the volume stays pretty much the same. Never get an issue with feedback, as I set all the levels before any guests enter the room. I know what my maximum gain is before feedback kicks in.

For karaoke, it'll help push out those peaks and just smooth everything out a bit.

If the speakers are set up properly, feedback shouldn't be an issue, especially if using decent mics with a fairly narrow pick up.

[yourdj]

Just come across this mixer today.

4 x mic channels, each with basic compression on each channel

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/analogue-mixing-desk/behringer-xenyx-1204usb-pa-and-studio-mixer


I have this mixer (the non USB version) and use it for ceremonies (usually use 2 mics, but sometimes 3) as well as the smaller Behringer one. Alto do a similar one, probably made in the same factory? They are amazing for the money and dead handy. Don't think I would go back to using the controller for mics as its easier having it all wired up in my electrics box. Plus having a seperate line for the back up is dead handy if the controller goes down. Also adds a bit of pre amp for the LD Dave, which seriously improves the sound. just makes the whole system more punchy and not far off some of my DJ's £3000+ systems!!

The Beringers are fine for karaoke, although the power supply is unusual and you will need 2 of them just in case (£30 each - worth getting a second hand smaller mixer for the same price - backup too). If I wanted to replace this mixer i would certainly go for a mackie one as i have the 402 and its fantastic in comparison to the . The sound quality is amazing and its worth the extra money. I think they do a cheaper new version, but this series is the one I use?

18503

18504

18502

[yourdj]

Actually on reflection, I want to downgrade my mixer to a smaller mackie one to fit my mic box better as i only usually use 2 mics, so if interested let me know. I have only every used it for ceremonies and its been in the case for its whole life so its in near new 'demo' type condition. I put some tape over the LED's as they are super bright and it has one random knob missing.

18505

I would get a spare power supply. I also have a smaller mixer with a power supply that i can sell if you like??

18506

[fullcontact68]

Thanks for all the comments, missed these since my latest purchase.

I've gone for a Behringer XENYX 1622USB, which seems to do the job nicely, sound quality seems quite good from my initial test too.

Going to get it cased up and prewired with the Chords, and see how it goes.

[rth_discos]

I've gone for a Behringer XENYX 1622USB

Looks great - a little bit of compression added and some reverb (all built in to the mixer), and you'll have a half decent sound coming out.

[fullcontact68]

Looks great - a little bit of compression added and some reverb (all built in to the mixer), and you'll have a half decent sound coming out.

Yup, that's what I liked about it, compression and effects, at the right price. Hopefully this will sort everything out.

Just pondering whether if its worth including the multicom for it's gate feature to remove handling noises etc, or simply use the mixers.

[fullcontact68]

Well, I've finally got all the bits and pieces pre-wired in a flight case. (Just a case of plugging in speakers, power and laptop).

Just need to try it out now in the real world.

(If you notice in the first picture, the Chord receiver is only attached at one site, need to source wider tabs, or spacers)

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