Prime 2 or 4.....do I or don't I?

[Imagine]

It's been a while since I made any purchases for the business (quite rightly because there's no money coming in).

I'd been promising myself before "you know what" put an end to life as we know it that I was going to invest in a Denon Prime 4 (I'm a big fan of Denon kit and currently have an MCX7000 as the main controller with an MC6000 Mk2 as back-up)
But, I like the idea of being laptop free, especially since the Prime series now work with VDJ (my software of choice).

I know it's not going to make me any more money by having one of these (which is always my business case), but it'll make life easier (both of my play-out MacBooks are well past due for replacement). Add to this, we'll be out and about again (fingers crossed) in the next 12 months, and it seems that it's the right time to commit, get the kit and get accustomed to it before it's used in earnest.

So...is it simply a case of the Prime 4 has four decks and the 2 has two? (I only ever use two decks)
Does anyone here have real world experience of these re reliability? i.e. what happens if the PSU goes down (is it possible to run on USB power from a laptop?)

Any thoughts on this one would be well and truly appreciated. It's a BIG investment for something the customer won't necessarily notice (but I WILL in terms of setup and break down times and that's important).

[Excalibur]

As you know, I too considered a Prime :eek::eek:, although I haven't owned any Denon kit since the last X-500 waved goodbye. I was looking at the GO, to go with my GOGOs. :D ( No children, I haven't gone back to having dancers at the front of the rig). ;)
Prime GO, with Maui 5 GO was the idea with the need for no mains supply being the driver. Wedding ceremonies would be the main use for the battery bit.

Only advice I can give is that one of our number, who is set in his love for some kit not specifically designed for DJ use ( although it does the job very nicely, I have to say ) had a play with the Prime, and pronounced it very user friendly, and briefly considered dipping his hand in his pocket. Had he been five years younger, he might have bought one, but he didn't think he could turn a profit by the time he might retire.

[rth_discos]

But, I like the idea of being laptop free, especially since the Prime series now work with VDJ (my software of choice).


But, don't you still need the laptop to be connected to the Prime to make it interface with Virtual DJ? Just saves you looking at the laptop screen (and instead squinting at a 'smaller' screen?!)

I think if you particularly wanted to give the look of a DJ who doesn't use a laptop, you can put the laptop under the booth for example and use it that way.

But I personally don't get the attraction of the Prime series. My biggest fear is that you're at the mercy of how long they want to maintain the development of it for.

If the laptop needs an upgrade, personally, I'd just upgrade the laptop. Because even with the Prime I think you're going to need to upgrade the laptop anyway.


Had he been five years younger, he might have bought one, but he didn't think he could turn a profit by the time he might retire.

From a purely business point of view, it's highly unlikely it was ever going to turn him any form of profit.

Would it bring him more bookings? Was he going to put his price up? What he meant was, over the 5 year period he felt he could justify the cost of it - rather than it being an investment that actually brought him additional revenue.

For me, every investment needs to bring in 10 x extra revenue to be worth doing.

[Excalibur]

For me, every investment needs to bring in 10 x extra revenue to be worth doing.

Your Mum didn't by any chance go on a day trip to the Yorkshire Dales before you were born, did she? :whistle: Nearly a year before? ;);)

Here's a little story.
A Frenchman is on holiday in England, and is involved in a horrific car crash. The only blood compatible with his comes from a Yorkshire farmer, and saves the Frenchman's life. The Frenchman seeks out the farmer, and gives him £5,000 as thanks for saving his life.

Years later, he's revisiting the scene, and has an equally horrific accident! ( Yeah, he's really unlucky, I know). Once again, he is given blood from the same source, and when he recovers, he again seeks out the Farmer, to reward him with a five pound note!

When asked why the large decrease in generosity, he replies:

" Ah yes, but I now have Yorkshire blood in me". :D

[ppentertainments]

Just my personal opinion, but think these 'all-in-one' units are still being developed and waiting a couple of years might result in you getting a trouble free system which will do what you need.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

No.

Makes no business sense.

[DJ Jules]

They're good units and I've heard very good things from everyone who's bought one. If I were starting out and hand to put my hand in my pocket for a laptop, controller and VDJ license (specifically for DJ use, forgetting admin, etc) I could easily build a case for buying a prime instead.

As someone with a number of workable laptops, existing investment in software licenses and a usable controller, I'm happy to let others spend their money on them as my existing platform does what I need and I'm in no rush to change.

Julian

[Imagine]

Thanks, as always for the learn'd opinions chaps!


As you know, I too considered a Prime

And that surely has to be recommendation in itself :D

I've always been a Denon user (apart from my mistaken adventure into the VMS4 which went badly wrong). It's solidly built, the sound quality is awesome and it just works. Their kit just never seems to miss a beat.


But, don't you still need the laptop to be connected to the Prime to make it interface with Virtual DJ?
Still looking into this point, but it appears that you do. That said, I've just watched a massive video demo on said units which sort of makes VDJ obsolete!


I think if you particularly wanted to give the look of a DJ who doesn't use a laptop, you can put the laptop under the booth for example and use it that way.
Waaay ahead of you there :)


If the laptop needs an upgrade, personally, I'd just upgrade the laptop. Because even with the Prime I think you're going to need to upgrade the laptop anyway.
And herein lies the big problem. I use Macs, and the later Macs are both very expensive (twice the price of the Prime 2), and non expandable. Apple have sort of shot themselves in both feet with the way they're working these days and as much as I like them for their reliability, the price tag is just too rich. And don't go there with Windows...I spent 20 years as a Windows based software engineer and haven't been anywhere near said OS since April 2019 (and have no intention of going near it again anytime soon in the future).


For me, every investment needs to bring in 10 x extra revenue to be worth doing.
This isn't so much about "investment", because let's face it....we're all starting from scratch again as far as our businesses are concerned (apart from buying the initial kit). It's more about making my own life simpler and easier - I don't believe in making the job harder than it needs to be.

To my mind, rocking up and plugging an IEC into the back of a Prime unit as opposed to plugging and connecting two Macbooks is a ten minute time saving at each end of a gig. I want life to be as easy as possible these days!



Just my personal opinion, but think these 'all-in-one' units are still being developed and waiting a couple of years might result in you getting a trouble free system which will do what you need.

They are, and they aren't. From what I can see they release regular updates to the software. In a couple of years I'll be ready to buy the next controller anyway :zip:


They're good units and I've heard very good things from everyone who's bought one. If I were starting out and hand to put my hand in my pocket for a laptop, controller and VDJ license (specifically for DJ use, forgetting admin, etc) I could easily build a case for buying a prime instead.

As someone with a number of workable laptops, existing investment in software licenses and a usable controller, I'm happy to let others spend their money on them as my existing platform does what I need and I'm in no rush to change.

Julian

And THIS is the problem. The MC7000 is a brilliant bit of kit and has never let me down. I also have the lifetime pro version of VDJ, I have two working laptops (which are now 10 years old and will eventually fail). I'm thinking the laptops now need to be "retired" to the back-up solution and something newer take their place.

There was never a "business case" as such in looking into one of these units. It's not going to turn a higher profit (I GET that and it was never the intention of getting one to make me more expensive), more to make my own life a lot easier and indeed give the impression that I'm interacting more with the dancefloor instead of staring at a couple of laptops (which actually, nobody noticed anyway!). A couple of minutes shaved off of set up and tear down time here and there is a win in my book. It's more of a convenience thing where I can shave another 10 minutes off of each end of a wedding.

I'm still mulling things over at the moment and when we're allowed to visit such places, a trip to my local supplier is going to be in order to actually play with one of these before making any commitment.

[Excalibur]

Thanks, as always for the learn'd opinions chaps!



As you know, I too considered a Prime

And that surely has to be recommendation in itself :D

I've always been a Denon user (apart from my mistaken adventure into the VMS4 which went badly wrong). It's solidly built, the sound quality is awesome and it just works. Their kit just never seems to miss a beat.



And, because I like balance and dislike soundbites ( yes Wayne, I did consider a Prime, but there was a bit you left off that quote :Naughty::D ) let's give another view.

My experience with Denon kit ( other than the x-500 mixer ) has mainly displayed annoying and random unreliability. An esteemed colleague who had years of faultless service from Denon CD players decided the HD2500 was the way to go. I've been working with him, and had to rescue him with my VMS4, when the Denon threw a wobbler. Eventually, he got sick of it, and upgraded to an MC6000. The faults that one could display were incredible, even after trying many different super high grade laptops. The VMS4 just kept plodding along. Eventually, my colleague gave up the struggle, and went back many years to an HC4500, ( much like I wish I could do with my phone saga), while I'm still enjoying reliable service from the VMS4.

I too had a wobble, and bought a smaller Denon controller, as backup to the VMS. It refused to stay connected to my laptop for more than five minutes, and was returned to the store. It was replaced with:

a VMS2, which although a tad low on features, has never missed a beat. :D

Wayne, I can see the logic you're using, and I don't think you've got an easy choice. Definitely get " hands on " with the Prime when you can, that may shed light on the subject. :confused:

[DJ Jules]

Ironically I've had the opposite experience. I had a VMS 5 that worked well, but wore out within the space of 9 months (button, fader and jog wheel failures!!!) Plus the thing weighed 6kg because theyd decided to over engineer the case out of thick steel plate.

I switched to an MC6000 mkII after that and it's been bulletproof. My MC is mounted into a flight case with all of the mic receivers, power supplies, USB hubs and DMX devices underneath it (including my laptop power supply) so powering up involves me connecting xlrs and 1 power lead to the rear of the case, placing my laptop on top and connecting laptop power and a single USB connector.

As a side, some crazy things are about to happen with mac books since the release of m1 processors. Might be worth waiting to see how that plays out...

Julian

[Retrodisco]

I've had my VMS5 since the day it came out and have used it one over 400 gigs, not one part of it has worn out, aside from a slightly looser crossfader.

[Excalibur]

Right folks, I shall have to admonish myself very severely for leading this topic astray, and remind folk that the idea of it is not the relative longevity of Denon vs ADJ, but whether young Wayne should purchase a Denon prime machine. Looks like this one could run and run, as there are convincing arguments for very many possible ways forward.


Forward. Interesting word. I'm reminded that my fastest setup times were when I had Cortex playout units in cases. Give 'em power, plug the signal leads from the mixer into the PA, and you were ready to rock and roll. Progress, eh? I can undoubtedly see where Wayne is trying to go with this. :whistle:

[DJ Jules]

I've had my VMS5 since the day it came out and have used it one over 400 gigs, not one part of it has worn out, aside from a slightly looser crossfader.

Maybe I was unlucky then. I did forget to mention the awful, noisy mic preamps though :zip:

Anyway, back in topic. Don't :Censored: your money up the wall on a new controller :p

Julian

[Imagine]

...when I had Cortex playout units in cases. Give 'em power, plug the signal leads from the mixer into the PA, and you were ready to rock and roll. Progress, eh? I can undoubtedly see where Wayne is trying to go with this. :whistle:

Finally old chap - somebody that "gets" what I'm trying to do :)
This investment (if I decide to give my local dealer a call on Monday morning) isn't about making money back....oh no! It's more about convenience and ease for myself.


Maybe I was unlucky then. I did forget to mention the awful, noisy mic preamps though :zip:

Anyway, back in topic. Don't :Censored: your money up the wall on a new controller :p

Julian

I remember my VMS well...built like a blimmin' brick outhouse and all was good until the USB port in the back fell out....major surgery time!

The jury's still well and truly out on this one at the moment gents.

It's really NOT going to make me any money and that's OK. It's more about saving time and effort on my behalf, plus a way of potentially getting around swapping out the current 12 year old MacBooks for newer and less flexible options (Windows isn't one of those options by the way!).

It's certainly something to mull over for the next few days whilst I enjoy some time off from the current day-job :). Currently playing with the Engine Prime software on the office Mac to see how I get on with things

On another note, I got the MC7000 out for the first time in a year tonight just to have a play around (my heart really hasn't been in it for the duration of Covid I'm sad to say). I haven't lost any of the skills I had with mixing. It all came back like a duck to water!

[DJ Jules]

Finally old chap - somebody that "gets" what I'm trying to do :)
This investment (if I decide to give my local dealer a call on Monday morning) isn't about making money back....oh no! It's more about convenience and ease for myself.

The point I was trying to make some number of posts ago was that you can get that convenience with any controller, the right case and a bit of imagination.

I'd actually argue that you lose some of that convenience with the Prime 4 because it's such a big unit.

On a different, but related note... Prime Go. I looked at one of these for the kids parties when they were first released, but came to the conclusion that I would still need power for the radio Mics anyway (and I'd still need a laptop to run DMX control for any gig that needed lighting) so the battery power was pointless. I also realised that I currently wouldn't trust a laptop or tablet to run on battery for a kids party and I certainly wouldn't for something as critical as ceremony music (and both my laptop and tablet have 7hr+ battery life). So why would I trust the Go?

The answer? I probably wouldn't. So what's the point? I'd just be losing EQ on the Mics and compromising on the control interface?

Going back to the rosy days of my Cortex... While it was convenient, it also randomly crashed every few gigs and it couldn't keep a beat if pitch lock was engaged.

I'm sure the Denon is much, much better though ;)

Julian

[rth_discos]

The point I was trying to make some number of posts ago was that you can get that convenience with any controller, the right case and a bit of imagination.

I'd actually argue that you lose some of that convenience with the Prime 4 because it's such a big unit.


I agree.

I have the MC6000mk2. Flightcased up. Not too big a unit to carry around. The setting up of that and the laptop takes seconds because it's all prewired.

Open up the case, unfold the laptop stand, put the laptop on it and plug in the Power, USB to the controller, and USB for the DMX and switch on. Literally takes seconds. I have another cable that has a 3.5mm jack on it and power for a second laptop that I place on the other side of the booth.

The bit I can't get my head around with the Prime is the following:

1: If you're using it laptopless, you need to get it out at home and transfer music across to it. I like just sitting on the sofa with my laptop updating music and creating any crates I need for each wedding. I'd hate to do that on the Prime.

2: People claim that you're DJ'ing without a laptop - but instead of a 15" screen I can glance at, suddenly I need to start looking at a much smaller 10" screen that is no longer in my eye line as I interact with the dancefloor. Plus, loading a song is way more fiddly than just dragging a song into a player from a list using a mouse on Virtual DJ

3: If a bride comes up with 20" left on a song and asks for the Marcarena next, I know within 5" I can type in 'Maca' and drag it to the player on Virtual DJ. I'm not so sure I could achieve that on Prime. To me, that decreases the quality of service I can provide my client.

On a note about Windows/Mac... for DJ'ing (and life in general), I have only ever used Windows and never had an issue. I've always used an exclusively DJ only laptop. I bought a decent Windows laptop in 2015 that had a decent processor, RAM and Hard Drive, and it's still fulfilling my needs perfectly. Because I've not added any other programs to it, nor used it for internet browsing, it still runs exactly the same as it did when I purchased it. Plus that laptop operates on my least favourite operating system - Windows 8.1. But as I only use the operating system to literally open Virtual DJ and Freestyler DMX, it really doesn't matter what the operating system is because I barely have to interact with it. But I'd feel very comfortable with a Windows 10 laptop. There's some excellent refurbished ex-business laptops around at the £600 mark. For me, the main requirement these days is a decent build quality of the laptop itself, rather than what's inside it. A solid shell is essentially for something that gets carted around gigs.

Personally, I'm not seeing the genuine return in terms of time saving when setting up. And with uncertainty ahead around the next 2 years as to just how much we'll be opening up, I'm avoiding any big investments a this stage.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I'd actually argue that you lose some of that convenience with the Prime 4 because it's such a big unit.


Julian

Having watched someone DJ with one I have to admit while it looked the part, it isn't worth it's price tag for me. The size is also another consideration, particularly if you're used to using something like and MC6000 like myself.

[Excalibur]

I agree.

I have the MC6000mk2. Flightcased up. Not too big a unit to carry around. The setting up of that and the laptop takes seconds because it's all prewired.

Been there......................................... I've built more cases than I care to remember. Some worked better than others. ;)


3: If a bride comes up with 20" left on a song and asks for the Marcarena next, I know within 5" I can type in 'Maca' and drag it to the player on Virtual DJ. I'm not so sure I could achieve that on Prime. To me, that decreases the quality of service I can provide my client.
While I can see that being true, ( and thus impossible to argue against) I will once more reiterate that with a keyboard attached to a Cortex, I was doing that however many years ago, with a machine that only required mains power and a PA. My, but we were ahead of the game in those days. :Laugh:


On a note about Windows/Mac... for DJ'ing (and life in general), I have only ever used Windows and never had an issue. I've always used an exclusively DJ only laptop. I bought a decent Windows laptop in 2015 that had a decent processor, RAM and Hard Drive, and it's still fulfilling my needs perfectly. Because I've not added any other programs to it, nor used it for internet browsing, it still runs exactly the same as it did when I purchased it.

That policy aligns very closely with my own. I suspect that my backup laptop ( which was last used in anger in 2019) would still function impeccably if asked to do so. It's at least seven years old, not overly specced, but still viable. I may even treat both machines to replacement batteries before we go back to work.


Personally, I'm not seeing the genuine return in terms of time saving when setting up. And with uncertainty ahead around the next 2 years as to just how much we'll be opening up, I'm avoiding any big investments at this stage.

I think I'm going to declare you an honorary Yorkshireman. :) I however have splurged on a few alterations to my way of working which should offer something of a " modular" approach to my setup, aesthetic improvements, and a greater amount of service options.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

My policy is if it doesn't make me faster, lighter or richer I don't buy it - as cool a piece of gear as the Prime is, it's not going to do any of those.

[Nakatomi]

I'm very much a fan of controllers. I've played with a prime 4 for an hour or so & honestly can't see any good argument for using one as a gigging mobile DJ. Sure there's the 'wizard of oz' factor you'll get when working with one (the less 'common or garden' equipment we use, the better IMHO) but still... Meh. Spend your money on something else if it's really burning a hole in your pocket.

My mc6000 isn't broke, and has only dropped the ball once - and even that time it was the fault of an overused 4-way extension lead (just a shame it had to happen half way through a first dance).

I've pondered upgrading to a physically bigger controller with more buttons a few times but it wouldn't bring any new features OF USE for the majority of my gigs. VDJs newest feature - stems - was worth updating to Windows 10 for though. I've been hammering that to bits in my practice sessions at home during this lockdown (as well as making shedloads of my own edits).

Ask yourself if what the prime gives you is really worth the money. You'll still need a laptop or SOMETHING as backup though, for when the prime eventually locks up or crashes at the most inopportune time. That, and you really need a computer of some sort to help organise the music database on the machine anyway.

[Nakatomi]

My policy is if it doesn't make me faster, lighter or richer I don't buy it - as cool a piece of gear as the Prime is, it's not going to do any of those.
This. All day long.

[Imagine]

Having watched someone DJ with one I have to admit while it looked the part, it isn't worth it's price tag for me. The size is also another consideration, particularly if you're used to using something like and MC6000 like myself.

Size and weight isn't a problem (says he who struggled to physically lift his MC7000 in flightcase a couple of days ago....I'd forgotten how heavy that thing was!)
In all seriousness though, I was looking for something which was going to be quicker to set up and less hassle (more on this at the end of the thread)


My policy is if it doesn't make me faster, lighter or richer I don't buy it - as cool a piece of gear as the Prime is, it's not going to do any of those.

It'd make life quicker Jim. It was never intended to make me richer!



I've pondered upgrading to a physically bigger controller with more buttons a few times but it wouldn't bring any new features OF USE for the majority of my gigs. VDJs newest feature - stems - was worth updating to Windows 10 for though. I've been hammering that to bits in my practice sessions at home during this lockdown (as well as making shedloads of my own edits).

Ask yourself if what the prime gives you is really worth the money. You'll still need a laptop or SOMETHING as backup though, for when the prime eventually locks up or crashes at the most inopportune time. That, and you really need a computer of some sort to help organise the music database on the machine anyway.

And here is the voice of experience from what I've been reading over the past couple of days. I didn't only ask this question here, but in a local Faceache group with a bunch of guys like yourselves that I know will tell it how it is (many of them own them).

I like big controllers with lots of buttons - it looks impressive to the punters (sorry....I'm a showman).
I've vowed now to spend more time learning more about what the MC7000 is actually capable of because to be honest, I could run most of my weddings with a DJ2GO2!

The stems seem to be a problem though. I like the idea, but I'm getting a lot of fuzziness/distortion when using them. Need to investigate this further as to whether there's a firmware update I need or whether it's just the ageing Macbooks causing the problem. The stems aren't as clear as I'd hoped they'd be :( I intend to repurpose my old Win10 laptop (urgh) over the next couple of days to see if that improves things.

What I HAVE learned though (especially after joining the official P4 FB group) is that these things are unpredictable and appear to crash without warning. That alone has put me off for now.
I'm sure one day they'll be the perfect machine....until then, I think I'll stick with a little more setup time and something that I know works!

[Nakatomi]

The stems seem to be a problem though. I like the idea, but I'm getting a lot of fuzziness/distortion when using them. Need to investigate this further as to whether there's a firmware update I need or whether it's just the ageing Macbooks causing the problem. The stems aren't as clear as I'd hoped they'd be :( I intend to repurpose my old Win10 laptop (urgh) over the next couple of days to see if that improves things.Results can vary wildly with vdj stems, but I've never expected them to be studio quality separations. I was totally skeptical whether the sounds would be at all usable but I've been more than pleasantly surprised. Where & how I'd use them will vary. The age old 'context is all' is king here as usual ;)

[DJ Jules]

The stems seem to be a problem though. I like the idea, but I'm getting a lot of fuzziness/distortion when using them. Need to investigate this further as to whether there's a firmware update I need or whether it's just the ageing Macbooks causing the problem. The stems aren't as clear as I'd hoped they'd be :( I intend to repurpose my old Win10 laptop (urgh) over the next couple of days to see if that improves things!

Stems work better on some tracks and styles of music than others. Thta was kind of to be expected, but they're not intended to be used to create an acapella version of a track, they're there to allow specific elements of one song to be overlaid over another, which will mask a lot of the imperfection. Firmware updates will make no difference, the feature is 100% based in VDJ and its done by preprocessing the track before playing so throwing more processing power or a different OS at it might make the loading time faster, but is unlikely to change the result.

What tracks did you try it with?

As a side.... If you think the MC7000 is heavy, you definitely don't want a Prime 4...

Julian

[Nakatomi]

Stems work better on some tracks and styles of music than others. Thta was kind of to be expected, but they're not intended to be used to create an acapella version of a track, they're there to allow specific elements of one song to be overlaid over another, which will mask a lot of the imperfection. Firmware updates will make no difference, the feature is 100% based in VDJ and its done by preprocessing the track before playing so throwing more processing power or a different OS at it might make the loading time faster, but is unlikely to change the result.

What tracks did you try it with?

As a side.... If you think the MC7000 is heavy, you definitely don't want a Prime 4...

Julian
Spot on Julian!

I've found that the more modern the track is, the better the separation. Some are scarily clean, when you consider it's all been yanked apart by a clever algorithm. It's witchcraft I tell ye!

[Andy P]

I've purchased a Prime 2 for going back, need to spend some money on DJing this year. I was using an MC4000 as I find the MC6000 layout too clustered. The Prime 2 is nicely laid out and easy to use. In stand alone its a great backup and if I do any clubs it will be all I need. Works faultless with VDJ also and that is how I'll be using it.

I bought this for 2 reasons:

Its probably my last year as full time DJ, lost my love and lost my faith during 15 months off. So I wanted to have something that made me want to get out again. Plus I've been working on mixing better and this again makes me want to practice and learn.

Second is that once I stop, I want a nice setup at home and I'm part way through a project for both the road and home. This will last me years and when I set up the home studio will look well.

SO why not Prime 4 you ask. Price was too much, never really mixed on 4 decks even when I had them, weight for the road.

Hope that is of some help