How to make sound "better"

[DJ Jules]

Last night I worked at a venue that I haven't been to in about 7 years and the acoustics in the room were far worse than I remembered! I did a couple of announcements before the first dance and a gent came over to me and said "we couldn't understand that, there was too much reverb on it" and I had to tell him that there was no reverb on it at all, it's just that the room is a big echo chamber. You can't see it on the video I've linked below, but there is a kind of raised dome over the middle of the room which I think wasn't helping either.

I've been using a GoPro on a clamp to try and capture more first dance footage and one of the interesting things is that it gives me insight into how everything sounds at the back of the room - and you can hear in this clip, it is NOT good.

https://youtu.be/ny93oEc8zXE

Thoughts? Anything I could have done with EQ, volume or speaker positioning to avoid this? Would a particular type of speaker have been better in this room than others?

Julian

[Corabar Steve]

Singing drainpipe style speakers would help. Boxes on tripods throw a lot more sound vertically than they need to for most mobile situations. Stick style throw a lot more horizontally than vertically, so domes in roofs are a lot less of a problem.

[DJ Jules]

Singing drainpipe style speakers would help. Boxes on tripods throw a lot more sound vertically than they need to for most mobile situations. Stick style throw a lot more horizontally than vertically, so domes in roofs are a lot less of a problem.

On that note.. has anyone had any experience with RCFs Evox J8s?

[Excalibur]

On that note.. has anyone had any experience with RCFs Evox J8s?

Oh no! Here we go with the "I've done gigs for 500 people with my Maui 5/11/28-EV 30/50-EVOX 8/J8/12-etc brigade, and they asked me to turn it down". :sofa:

Seriously, two things.
Many stick/column rigs have speech settings, which can help a lot, I have a venue next week where 12" boxes on tripods were unsuitable, the Polars are going in there somehow this time.

I once worked in a gymnasium, and got there before the band. I set up my LD subs and tops, stood back, and thought " let's see the band beat that"! Technically, they did, with an HK touring grade rig. :o:o Due to the venue's acoustics though, mine actually sounded better. Perhaps " less is more ". :whistle:

[rth_discos]

3 free things I'd recommend.

Firstly turn down the bass on your mic. I'm hoping you have eq options on it. Turn up the treble and turn down the bass.

Lower frequencies (bass) reverb considerably more than treble.

Secondly, turn the mic up a bit - it was struggling to cut through the noise of the room.

And third, speak slower. Leave gaps in what you are saying to enable people to take in what you are saying.

What I heard on that clip is roughly how 90% of djs sound.

Once you get the announcements clear on the mic, you instantly elevate yourself above everyone else.

[DJ Jules]

3 free things I'd recommend.

Firstly turn down the bass on your mic. I'm hoping you have eq options on it. Turn up the treble and turn down the bass.

Lower frequencies (bass) reverb considerably more than treble.

Secondly, turn the mic up a bit - it was struggling to cut through the noise of the room.

And third, speak slower. Leave gaps in what you are saying to enable people to take in what you are saying.

What I heard on that clip is roughly how 90% of djs sound.

Once you get the announcements clear on the mic, you instantly elevate yourself above everyone else.

Bass was down around 9 o'clock, treble up at 2 o'clock, mids were flat - I'll have to play with EQ a bit more though. I'm starting to not like the sound of the highs/mids on the Alto's - I just find them kind of harsh and lacking detail so that may also be a factor.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the event coordinator gave me the thumbs up and the couple just started walking into the room before I could get peoples attention or start the intro so I was a little rushed on this occasion :)

Thank you for tips though - really appreciated. One thing I have noticed from recordings is that I need to work on prouncing all of the sylables in "Ladies and Gentlemen" (or switch to "Friends and Family") :o

Julian

[Nakatomi]

Bass was down around 9 o'clock, treble up at 2 o'clock, mids were flat - I'll have to play with EQ a bit more though. I'm starting to not like the sound of the highs/mids on the Alto's - I just find them kind of harsh and lacking detail so that may also be a factor.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the event coordinator gave me the thumbs up and the couple just started walking into the room before I could get peoples attention or start the intro so I was a little rushed on this occasion :)

Thank you for tips though - really appreciated. One thing I have noticed from recordings is that I need to work on prouncing all of the sylables in "Ladies and Gentlemen" (or switch to "Friends and Family") :o

Julian

Call me woke snowflake if you like but I dropped 'ladies & gentlemen' ages ago & now just use 'everyone' or 'everybody'. It also helps avoid having to add 'boys & girls" if kids are around too, which I always think sounds cringe.

Reverb isn't the only enemy of good sound reproduction. I've noticed that nobody ever seems to toe their speakers in towards corners anymore. When I got a friend to DJ my sisters wedding he had his ES1203s facing a parallel wall straight on & the slap back echoes were off-puttingly prominent. So I helped toe the speakers in a bit & we fixed the nasty slapbacks.

Probably the best way to mitigate reverberation would be to use multiple speakers distributed throughout the venue, with appropriate time correction applied to each one. But that's highly impractical for the mobile DJ. As others have said, switching to the trendy column array type of speaker might help a bit in reverberant settings - but again that's not always a practical solution either.

The worst venue I've ever worked in for acoustics was an old chapel. It had a really bad reverb problem until I played with speaker placement & positioning. I ended up not only toeing the speakers in but moving them apart too which helped a lot. Luckily I had plenty of time in hand to experiment on site in that case. I ended up with the speakers off the stage in corners, angled at around 30 degrees pointing towards the middle of the dancefloor - something that was only possible because I had long enough cables.

As much as I dislike the look of tops on tripods I still can't bring myself to spend upwards of 3 grand on a column system. I think my ideal would be 2 column speakers on gravity poles paired with a bin, but that's currently way out of my budget.. Some like the Db Es1203 sound 'ok' but I reckon they're too heavy a hump for something that doesn't reproduce anything under 60hz.

[rth_discos]

Bass was down around 9 o'clock, treble up at 2 o'clock, mids were flat - I'll have to play with EQ a bit more though. I'm starting to not like the sound of the highs/mids on the Alto's - I just find them kind of harsh and lacking detail so that may also be a factor.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the event coordinator gave me the thumbs up and the couple just started walking into the room before I could get peoples attention or start the intro so I was a little rushed on this occasion :)

Thank you for tips though - really appreciated. One thing I have noticed from recordings is that I need to work on prouncing all of the sylables in "Ladies and Gentlemen" (or switch to "Friends and Family") :o

Julian

Next thing to look at is the microphone itself. I had a Sennheiser E835 and found it had a very clear sound.

For the first dance, I would typically spend up to 5 minutes getting everyone in position. When I've done the big "Good evening everybody", I'd wait 5 seconds or so for them to stop what they are doing and start listening before moving onto the next bit. I would explain that X and Y are about to do their first dance, so please make their way around the edge of the dancefloor. I wouldn't start the first dance until I had the majority of people standing around the edge. Hence why it'd take 5 minutes or so. It does require a bit of advance planning with the co-ordinator and the couple so they know what is going to happen.

And even once they were on the dancefloor, I'd be happy to wait a little longer for everyone to get there - especially the older guests who can't move as quickly, yet seem to appreciate the "first dance" more. My aim was to always get something like the below, which I felt made for a lovely backdrop for the photographer.

19168

[DJ Jules]

Next thing to look at is the microphone itself. I had a Sennheiser E835 and found it had a very clear sound.

For the first dance, I would typically spend up to 5 minutes getting everyone in position. When I've done the big "Good evening everybody", I'd wait 5 seconds or so for them to stop what they are doing and start listening before moving onto the next bit. I would explain that X and Y are about to do their first dance, so please make their way around the edge of the dancefloor. I wouldn't start the first dance until I had the majority of people standing around the edge. Hence why it'd take 5 minutes or so. It does require a bit of advance planning with the co-ordinator and the couple so they know what is going to happen.

And even once they were on the dancefloor, I'd be happy to wait a little longer for everyone to get there - especially the older guests who can't move as quickly, yet seem to appreciate the "first dance" more. My aim was to always get something like the below, which I felt made for a lovely backdrop for the photographer.

19168

Had that conversation. Got the guests in as close to the dance floor as I was possibly going to get. The action cam distorts distances and they weren't that far off the B&G.

I did prep the B&G, but the Bride was a bit worse for wear and just ran in as soon as the venue coordinator gave me the thumbs up that they were in position :zip: That really limited options for the introduction.

I probably should look at mics - I'm not overly enamored by the one I've been using for the best part of a decade.

There's some great tips there on speaker placement. They were toed in slightly towards the dance floor, but not a lot. Getting them a bit further apart and toeing them in more would probably have improved things a bit. Time was the limiting factor, as it is with most weddings, but if I went back again I'd know to try something different with the placement and angles and experiment a bit more.

I'm just still happy that they got rid of their insanely low sound limiter which would have added another dimension of fun to the night :daft:

Julian

[Excalibur]

3 free things I'd recommend.

Firstly turn down the bass on your mic. I'm hoping you have eq options on it. Turn up the treble and turn down the bass.

Lower frequencies (bass) reverb considerably more than treble.

Secondly, turn the mic up a bit - it was struggling to cut through the noise of the room.

And third, speak slower. Leave gaps in what you are saying to enable people to take in what you are saying.

What I heard on that clip is roughly how 90% of djs sound.

Once you get the announcements clear on the mic, you instantly elevate yourself above everyone else.
:agree:


Bass was down around 9 o'clock, treble up at 2 o'clock, mids were flat - I'll have to play with EQ a bit more though. I'm starting to not like the sound of the highs/mids on the Alto's - I just find them kind of harsh and lacking detail so that may also be a factor.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the event coordinator gave me the thumbs up and the couple just started walking into the room before I could get peoples attention or start the intro so I was a little rushed on this occasion :)

Thank you for tips though - really appreciated. One thing I have noticed from recordings is that I need to work on prouncing all of the sylables in "Ladies and Gentlemen" (or switch to "Friends and Family") :o

Julian

So many variables, how big are the Alto's? I know when I got my first 12" tops after using 15", the difference in vocals was staggering. I'm a big fan of small boxes, you can get lovely clarity with 8" or 10" tops over subs.

[DJ Jules]

:agree:

So many variables, how big are the Alto's? I know when I got my first 12" tops after using 15", the difference in vocals was staggering. I'm a big fan of small boxes, you can get lovely clarity with 8" or 10" tops over subs.

The Alto's at TS212's (12" speakers with a fairly cheap HF horn).

My other rig is a pair of FBT J8's over the top of a single FBT 15" sub which makes for an incredibly capable and very punchy little system. I've started using the Alto's more this year again because they're more than enough for most venues and they're very light (12kg a box) so they're good for when I need to take a PA up a flight of stairs. I also found my hearing was starting to suffer when I slung the sub under the booth and stood over it all night.

I've used the J8's by themselves before and found that they're really nicely balanced at lower volumes with quite a surprising amoung of low end, but the LF backs off before the HF so they get sharper as you push them louder. But they used to be great for parties with 30 kids in a room where you don't want or need earth shattering volume.

Julian

[Excalibur]

Call me woke snowflake if you like but I dropped 'ladies & gentlemen' ages ago & now just use 'everyone' or 'everybody'. It also helps avoid having to add 'boys & girls" if kids are around too, which I always think sounds cringe.
You're a woke snowflake. :p To be honest, I suspect I still use Ladies and Gentlemen, but it can depend so much on circumstances.




As much as I dislike the look of tops on tripods I still can't bring myself to spend upwards of 3 grand on a column system. I think my ideal would be 2 column speakers on gravity poles paired with a bin, but that's currently way out of my budget.. Some like the Db Es1203 sound 'ok' but I reckon they're too heavy a hump for something that doesn't reproduce anything under 60hz.
Years ago, when the 1203 came out, we all wrote it off on grounds of cost and portability. It may now be proving the adage that " there's no replacement for displacement". I didn't know about low end performance, but it would be one of the first items into my shopping basket after a big lottery win.



I probably should look at mics - I'm not overly enamored by the one I've been using for the best part of a decade.

Gavin mentioned Sennheiser. Cabled, 835 or 845 is my weapon of choice. I hate Shure SM 58s with a vengeance, their only good point is they're indestructible.
Wireless, SM58 Beta currently goes to almost every gig, but I prefer my W Audio DTM by a mile. The Shure only wins on receiver size.





So many variables, how big are the Alto's? I know when I got my first 12" tops after using 15", the difference in vocals was staggering. I'm a big fan of small boxes, you can get lovely clarity with 8" or 10" tops over subs.


The Alto's at TS212's (12" speakers with a fairly cheap HF horn).

My other rig is a pair of FBT J8's over the top of a single FBT 15" sub which makes for an incredibly capable and very punchy little system.
Julian
I rest my case. My tiny rig upstairs cabs are old Db 10s.

[DJ Jules]

Gavin mentioned Sennheiser. Cabled, 835 or 845 is my weapon of choice. I hate Shure SM 58s with a vengeance, their only good point is they're indestructible.
Wireless, SM58 Beta currently goes to almost every gig, but I prefer my W Audio DTM by a mile. The Shure only wins on receiver size.

I bought a SM58 many moons ago when I did a gig with a singer who required a SM58 and nothing else could possibly do the job. I then used it myself for a few gigs and decided I really didn't like the way it sounded and sold it on. The only good point about it for me was that I got it in a sale and literally lost a few pennies when I sold it on.

I have to hand JTS, AKG, Q-Audio and Thomann's own brand mic's (handheld and headset). Out of these the JTS mic's have been my go to as they're built out of a solid lump of metal and will probably outlive us all. The AKG's and the Q-Audio come out for Karaoke, but actually have a reasonable sound to them and I also quite like the clarity and punch of the Thomann handhelds (and they're also not half bad for handling noise so they normally come out for speeches). I still have a Sennheiser radio mic somewhere around here, but from memory it was actually a rebadged version of something else that Sennheiser did to give them an entry level offering. I might have to pick up a decent Sennheiser and see if that makes a difference.

I'm ditching the "ladies and gentlemen". I don't think the terms apply to my audiences anyway :D

Julian

[Excalibur]

I'm ditching the "ladies and gentlemen". I don't think the terms apply to my audiences anyway :D

Julian

I think we're working to the same audiences Julian. :D:D

If you're looking handheld wired, I heartily recommend a decent Senny. If you want wireless, I say it every time, check out W Audio DTM I've seen them outperform Shure more than once, and you get two of the blighters. :)

[rth_discos]

I think we're working to the same audiences Julian. :D:D

If you're looking handheld wired, I heartily recommend a decent Senny. If you want wireless, I say it every time, check out W Audio DTM I've seen them outperform Shure more than once, and you get two of the blighters. :)

For wireless, I had 2. And each had a very specific function.

Firstly, I had some cheap Thomann thing: https://www.thomann.co.uk/the_t.bone_tws_one_c_vocal.htm

Crazy prize, but sounded amazing. This was for use by me as the mic I'd use when in front of the DJ booth making announcements. And because the receiver was so small, it sat underneath my controller, velcro'd to the bottom of the case. It meant I always had a wireless mic on hand "just in case". But the sound was so impressive for the price.

The second was a Sennheiser XSW wireless mic - but most importantly (and these are quite hard to find), it was the condenser mic version

https://www.thomann.co.uk/sennheiser_xsw_2_865_a_band_vocal_set.htm

This was used by anyone doing a "presentation" - primarily for wedding speeches, but also useful for any events where someone was delivering a speech. This mic works best when not held directly in front of the mouth - and can even just about cope when someone holds the mic by their waist. For speech work it was just amazing. And was my setup for wedding breakfast speeches.

That combination worked perfectly for me. And the Thomann mic was the one I was happy for anyone drunk to have because it was cheap to replace if needed (but was surprisingly well built).

[ppentertainments]

Haven't read through all the comments, but with sound everyone looks at the end of the chain first - the speakers.

Start from the beginning. What you put in is more beneficial to what is thrown out. Decent music, mics, leads, cables etc etc are the first port of call.