Pat

[steviev55]

Hi all. have just learned that you can buy your own pat tester and pat test your own equipment, this is on a pass fail machine called Pat It. As anyone else took this route and am I understanding this right?

thanks

Steve

[Corabar Entertainment]

This thread: http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=4520&highlight=calibration might have some information that would be useful to you..... there's a lot more to it than just buying a PAT tester! :eek:

[steviev55]

Hi, yes read the thread but this machine comes with all the relevent paper work and pass stickers. I have always been very competent with elctricals.
So this would then be a good route for me to take??

Steve

[Danno13]

Aren't the machines quite expensive though? It would be about 4-5 years before you actually made any savings. Although, i guess it depends how much kit you have.

[DMX Will]

Hi, yes read the thread but this machine comes with all the relevent paper work and pass stickers. I have always been very competent with elctricals.
So this would then be a good route for me to take??

Steve

Yes, but you also need training before you can PAT test

[steviev55]

Hi all

HSE say that if a PAT tester with PASS and FAIL indication is used, then someone with no electrical skills can carry out the PAT testing. Information on PAT testers with PASS and FAIL indication is included in the section on PAT testers.

Retail £250+vat comes with all labels and paper work.


http://www.firststopsafety.co.uk

[Danno13]

So about £300. I pay about £60 a year, for 40 odd items. So would be 5 years before it'd actually save me anything. You could always get together with some local DJs and buy it together though i guess.

[DMX Will]

And do these pass/fail machines require calibration?

To complete a PAT test you are required to do a visual inspection, so how can you not have electrical knowledge to do that?

[steviev55]

Hi, I suppose when you look at it like that. I have intent on this though and have just enroled on a day certified course. you never know i may be testing your equipment in time..:)

Steve

[TonyB]

If you done your own PAT testing, you can do it more often as well. I know the recommendation is every 12 months but mobile DJ gear is chucked around, cables are constantly plugged in/unplugged, coiled up. A fault could manifest itself at any time. I believe hire companies test the gear every time it goes out.

Personally I think every 12 months is to great a time span for a busy DJ. Its all well and good displaying a certificate to say you have been PAT tested but its only usually done to meet a requirement and not to ensure that the gear is constantly checked throughout the year to ensure it is safe.

I can see nothing wrong with a competent person self testing their gear and if anything, it would be beneficial if they done it more often.

[wensleydale]

put it this way- testing using a machine has to be better than not testing at all doesnt it??

[DMX Will]

I think that a test once a year is good. But it really helps if the user of the equipment can notice a fault or problem and act accordingly.

[A1DL]

Will is absolutely correct.

The majority of failures are failure at the visual inspection stage, before the equipment or cable is even connected to the PAT tester.

It doesn't need an electrician or PAT testing equipment to spot and rectify most of these visual failures, such as broken plugtops, inner sheathing exposed, etc

[reemicks disco]

Agree with A1DL there, you can have a cut in outter casing on a lead, this can only be picked up by a visual check, also the fuse rating in a plug is visual.

[TonyB]

This is a leading question - if you can detect defects by a visual inspection, why bother to PAT test at all?

[steviev55]

So to put this one to bed, as the HSE confirms that you do not need to be an electrician to carry out this testing as long as you use a simple "Pass/Fail" tester, that it would be acceptable to upload to this site a proof of PAT testing even though it had been carried out by myself..??

thanks
Steve

PS, (This maybe in the wrong place) but I have tried to contact admin on a number of occasions but had no reply, there is mistakes in my ad, yesterday I purchased a sponsored listing, will I have the chance to revise my listing? also how long does it take for a sponsored listing to go live?.

[Corabar Entertainment]

PS, (This maybe in the wrong place) but I have tried to contact admin on a number of occasions but had no reply, there is mistakes in my ad, yesterday I purchased a sponsored listing, will I have the chance to revise my listing? also how long does it take for a sponsored listing to go live?.Posted earlier today on another thread:
There has been a backlog of answering emails and upgrading sponsored listings, answering emails, amending listings etc over the Christmas period, as we have all been extremely busy with our own DJ businesses (and for some reason, everyone decided to chose this time to make alterations!!!!!)

However, I started clearing the backlog yesterday. Any sponsored listing not yet upgraded on the site will be down shortly, and the listing period will only start from the date that the upgrade is shown on the listing - regardless of the date you paid.

If you don't want to post up publically on the forum, you can always email us at [email protected] - these are normally answered very quickly, but as I mentioned above, there is a backlog from the Christmas period.

[reemicks disco]

And do these pass/fail machines require calibration?

To complete a PAT test you are required to do a visual inspection, so how can you not have electrical knowledge to do that?

Was talking to our PAT tester yesterday, when he did his course leads would pass on one machine and fail on another, and all the machines had been calibrated, so just goes to show that a item can pass and still be faulty, or fail and can still be ok, and although leads and equipment has past a PAT test its still up to the user to check items regularly, as being in the motor trade for 20 years a PAT is like a MOT not worth the paper its written on, but thats just my opinion.:rolleyes:

[TonyB]

This might be of interested from HSE - Guidance for entertainers http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg247.pdf . Page 10 - equipment should be initially tested every 5th times it goes out.

My "leading question" was to do with risk assessment. When you take into account the hard life that portable disco equipment has, would you consider that equipment should be tested more often? Points to consider are possible internal damage to extension leads that you can't see, screws in plugs/appliances working loose through vibration (possibly caused by transportation), equipment receiving knocks and bump whilst being loaded, unloaded, errected, dismantled, packed away.

An external inspection will show up the obvious but how often does anyone bother to open every mains plug/socket or remove the case from lights/amps etc to see if anything is going awry inside?

[DMX Will]

An external inspection will show up the obvious but how often does anyone bother to open every mains plug/socket or remove the case from lights/amps etc to see if anything is going awry inside?

Everyone should "bother" if for nothing else to check the inside of the plug is correct with minimal bare wire on view before going into the pins etc. The plug of an item can be, and probably is the most likely bit to be damaged as it can trail around, smash up get pulled etc.

So all good PAT testers should being doing this inspection. Even those who own the equipment should be doing this if they suspect something is up with the device in question. It's basic electrical safety if you ask me.

[CRAZY K]

This might be of interested from HSE - Guidance for entertainers http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg247.pdf . Page 10 - equipment should be initially tested every 5th times it goes out.

My "leading question" was to do with risk assessment. When you take into account the hard life that portable disco equipment has, would you consider that equipment should be tested more often? Points to consider are possible internal damage to extension leads that you can't see, screws in plugs/appliances working loose through vibration (possibly caused by transportation), equipment receiving knocks and bump whilst being loaded, unloaded, errected, dismantled, packed away.

An external inspection will show up the obvious but how often does anyone bother to open every mains plug/socket or remove the case from lights/amps etc to see if anything is going awry inside?

EVERY 5 GIGS :eek: If you were hiring out electrical cement mixers maybe you would inspect regularly---for own mobile disco leads lovingly packed away after every gig and visually inspected before use like we do then id say no way.

After all we have a vested interest in everything working safely ---we get paid and get to live another day!

THEN AGAIN IF YOU HIRE OUT DISCO GEAR OR HAVE DJS WORKING ON YOUR GEAR FAIR ENOUGH.

CRAZY K

[DMX Will]

If your clever, you can easily work this inspection into setuping for your show, as all you need to do is check the plugs/general condition of the item as you use it, if its suspect to small degree have a look at it the next day, or if its really suspect whip out your tool box there and then!

Remember its only guidelines, and some things wont need to be that frequently checked, ie items that are racked in a rack or locked into a console with a 4 way or whatever inside where nothing moves, you only need to check the one 4 way plug every now and then!

Will.

[sleah]

Any person who is competant with electrics can PAT test. As far as the LAW goes, there isn't any! It is NOT a legal requirement to PAt test anything let alone set the time period. It's all down to local authorities and venue owners and mainly of course, insurance companies.
Most councils insist on PAT testing before you can plug anything in in one of their venues, as do many other venue owners.
Many PLI suppliers will insist on any electrical equipment being used under the PLI is tested.
HSE guidance is exactly that, not law. It is a standard that everyone can work to.
PAT is exactly like a car MOT, it is meaningless as far as safety is concerned after the test. It ONLY proves the appliance was safe when the test was done, it could develop a fault the following day and kill someone, such as damage to a lead or a part breaking off inside after a knock.
PAT is a very good idea, especially for the less technical. It is a good idea to do it more than once a year for a working mobile disco, as part of regular preventative maintenence, which really everyone should do. The regularity depends entirely on individual circumstances.
As Will mentions, stuff locked in racks needs less frequent checks.

[A1DL]

This is a leading question - if you can detect defects by a visual inspection, why bother to PAT test at all?

The first part of a PAT is the visual inspection, which includes removing plugtops, checking connectors, cabling and housing for damage. It is a similar Visual Inspection that should be carried out prior to using a piece of equipment or a cable.

The tests carried out using PAT equipment include an earth bond test, continuity test, insulation test & run test. These test may pick up electrical faults/dangers which may or may not be apparent from visual inspection.

For example, removal of a plugtop may reveal the earth wire is not secured to the pin - clearly visually apparent, however the earth may be broken at some point within the length of cable, which would NOT be visually apparent, however the EB test using PAT equipment would indicate there was a problem.

The visual inspection stage itself is very important, because whilst in the example above the insecure earth would probably fail the EB test, a damaged cable, broken plugtop, exposed lives, etc would often pass all the tests the equipment is there for.

[steviev55]

Hi all,
Further to my last thread I have since purchased the PAT machine that I spoke of. It would seem after some indepth enquiry of the HSE and other parties that you do in No way need to be an electrician to operate these simple PASS / Fail systems. However you do need to be able to show competence of using the machine. The machine comes with all relevant recording material and is calibrated at point of sale, so mine will need to be returned to the company for this about a years time. Bit like an MOT really.
You basically need to know and understand the different classes of each item and what to look for in the visual test, and test accordingly, I,e Class 1 needing an earth wire for it's safety and Class 2 double insulated etc. I would point out here that this machine is childs play, it does everything for you, It tests for earth continuity, insulation etc, IEC leads, Extension leads, sockets and pollarity. As far as Certification goes, lets face it anyone can print out a certificate, But we must remeber that when printed and displayed that we are saying that all responsibility lays at our own feet.
Even though I believe I am competent in this are (maybe too much somtimes I,e refusing to use anything other than rubber plugs and sockets) I have booked a course in PAT testing as this will allow me to gain a certificate of cometence and further allow me to test off site.

Please do not be offended if i do not reply to any of the reply if any as we have just had our 4th baby girl and very tired...

Steve

Was just wanting to add that I intend to do the visual check monthly and full combined test every three months.

[DMX Will]

Please do not be offended if i do not reply to any of the reply if any as we have just had our 4th baby girl and very tired...

Steve

Congratulations first of all.


Was just wanting to add that I intend to do the visual check monthly and full combined test every three months.

Secondly, Thanks for sharing your views and what your up to, I personally think there is a bit more too it than that of what you stated, however you've covered the bascis there.

Don't feel you have to proove yourself to us, (ie wether you are capable to PAT test or not) especially as there are no legal guidlines to what is and what isnt capable to do such a job. Remember PAT testing isnt even required legally!

Will.

[steviev55]

Hi, yes there is more to it if you use a different machine as with most others you have to interpret the results yourself.
As for proving myself, I think I may have led you astray, having been a slaughterman for the past 25 years and doing discos for around 18 years, I have seen a constant decay in the self and self worth. The powers that be continue on a daily basis of nannying us, introducing regulation, 1 after the other. We all know that PAT testing is not as far as I am aware currently a legal requirement, yet it seems to be the topic of the day with many venues.
Even this site says that it is a legal requirement.

Thanks

Steve

[Corabar Entertainment]

Even this site says that it is a legal requirement.Can you please show me where on this site it says that?

[steviev55]

Hi sorry got the wrong site it was on another site. just goes to show how tired I am:zip:

This is from another site. confusion!

When searching for a suitable mobile disco, you'll probably notice that many (but not all) companies will make reference to their equipment being 'PAT tested'.

Portable Appliance (or PAT) testing is a requirement that all mobile disco companies should adhere to, by law. It involves the testing

[Corabar Entertainment]

OK - I'll let you off :D :D

[steviev55]

OK thanks, though if some of you were as quick to answer account questions, sorting out PLI uploads and sponsored listing purchases :D

[Shaun]

With all due respect Steve...we have lives too. All work carried out by the site staff is done purely voluntary in our spare time. We do our very best to get through all the admin duties as and when time allows. :rolleyes:

[steviev55]

Joke mate:p are you a little stressed?

[Shaun]

Not at all.

[dannyboy]

PAT testing is part of what I do for a living, and it seriously isnt worth doing in the respect that the test is only valid at the time of test like an "MOT."

The only reason mine is PAT tested is so I can wave the certificate at the Venue IF they ask for it.

More so with disco equipment, its up and down more times than a guy with an itchy bum!

What if, god forbidden. Somebody got an electric shock off your gear, you turn round and say that its all been PAT tested. They speak to the PAT tester and they provide test results "proof" that your equipment passed on there test. who does the blame lie with????

And what is your certificate worth then?

Also with regards to DIY PAT testing. There are many laws which must be adhered to.

E.G

The Electricity at Work regulations states that:

"No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger, or where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work"

The IEE Code of Practice states, those carrying out the inspection and testing must be competent to undertake the inspection and, where appropriate, testing of electrical equipment and appliances having due regard of their own safety and that of others. What should be considered is that the 'danger' to be prevented, includes not just the dangers which may arise during the testing procedure to the tester and others, but also the dangers which may arise at a later date as a result of using equipment which has not been effectively tested.

The tester must have an understanding of the modes of electrical, mechanical or thermal damage to electrical equipment and appliances and their flexes which may be encountered in any environment.

Training must include the identification of equipment and appliance types to determine the test procedures and frequency of inspection and testing. Persons testing must be familiar with the test instruments used and in particular their limitations and restrictions so as to achieve repeatable results without damaging the equipment or the appliance.

I Can provide more quotes if anyone was interested

[LILLYSTONE]

There is a City & Guilds one day course on PAT testing, I did it a few years back and i test my own equipment. The testers are expensive so i borow one from work.

[steviev55]

Hi, Yes thats the one I'me taking, i hink you take the test online at the end of the day. I bought a PAT IT machine @ £249+.
Have tested my gear and all is OK except a lighting controller that did pass but behaving very oddly so I put to one side as a spare.

Steve