drm or no drm?

[Thames Valley Discos]

Reading this site
http://www.wma-convert.com/index.php?add=google1
it says removing DRM is legal, is it?

[Danno13]

I don't think its legal.. it's in the terms of napster and itunes. That site is american, so the rules must be different (read fairer) there.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

It's a very grey area still.

By removing the DRM, you are actually changing the file, even if it doesn't re-record the song.

The problem with that site is that it's in the U.S who have different laws to us.

[Danno13]

Darren you have to stop copying my posts :D:D:D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Darren you have to stop copying my posts :D:D:D

You type faster than me...:( ;)

[Thames Valley Discos]

so in uk, is there any way of downloading tracks without DRM, or who could i contact to find out if removing DRM would be ok?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

so in uk, is there any way of downloading tracks without DRM

There are sites that you can download tracks without DRM - I downloaded a couple today in Mp3 format without DRM, but this is a dance music only site and most of the stuff is fairly useless to us mobiles.

Ministry of Sound site. (http://www.mosdownload.com/index.php)

[Thames Valley Discos]

Yeah sorry, i meant main stream music

[sleah]

Actually, that site seems to be russian! But maybe like the US, they don't realise other countries have different laws :confused:

We've had similar debates over on the Mastermix forums, but mainly in connection with the DDJ licence :mad:

Personally, I think it may die the death as far as DJ's are concerned. Well it's GOT to!

If the PPL have they're way, DDJ's will be subject to DRM, which effectively means that digital playout systems will have to use DRM, which isn't going to happen as no-one in their right mind will have their systems on-line.
Imagine a soundcard fails mid-gig, you carry a spare and waz it on while you play a CD. Suddenly your computer de-authorizes itself MID-GIG!!!!
iTunes does it every few weeks just for a laugh, so you can guarantee it will happen one day.....
I have near complete confidence in my laptop, it has proven to be more reliable than any CD players or turntables I have ever owned in the last 20 years, and so only carry a couple of CD's. However, if I were forced to use DRM I may have to rethink :mad: :eek:

Effectively, PPL want to make digital playout illegal, which is not about to happen, so I think it may only survive for domestic ipodders. I read somewhere that there are rumblings in the IT or music industry that want to totally outlaw DRM, even making out it could infring on human rights :confused:

DRM truely is from the devil, as they say :mad: :mad: :bang: :bang:

[Stormin' Si]

Yes it is illegal to remove DRM protection from an WMA file. Read the terms and conditions of the site you bought it from.

[LILLYSTONE]

It is Illegal for record companies to put DRM onto some tracks. But they still do it!

[sleah]

It is Illegal for record companies to put DRM onto some tracks. But they still do it!

Interesting. Please explain.

[LILLYSTONE]

Some Music is now out of copyright and is in the public domain and should be free to copy. Copyright on music only lasts 50 years anything pre 1956 shouldn't have DRM on it. But the record companies still put it on.

[sleah]

Some Music is now out of copyright and is in the public domain and should be free to copy. Copyright on music only lasts 50 years anything pre 1956 shouldn't have DRM on it. But the record companies still put it on.

Ahhh... of course. But is it the sound recordings that are out of copyright, some of the lyrical and musical compositions are still in copyright, so that may be why.
Reading the mcps & PPL sites it's not easy to get your head round the whole copyright thing, when they talk about sound recordings and lyrical composition.
I can't see how you could have a sound recording free of copyright, but the compositions in that recording still in copyright and be able to freely copy the sound recording:confused: :confused:
Anyone know what I'm talking about???? I'm not entirely sure I do:(

[colinm345]

Reading this site
http://www.wma-convert.com/index.php?add=google1
it says removing DRM is legal, is it?

This is what we use http://www.tunebite.com/en/tunebite/index.html?affiliate=1003

the original DRM VMA is left intact and an MP3 copy of it is produced in the Tunbite folder:)

Copyright in a sound recording expires 50 years from the end of the year in which it was made or, if published in this time, 50 years from the end of the year of publication. If not published during that 50 year period, but it is played in public or communicated to the public during that period, 50 years from the first of these to happen.:)

[LILLYSTONE]

classical music should be free

[Corabar Steve]

classical music should be free

If it was recorded more than 50 years ago then maybe, I'd prefer the sound quality on a more recent recording personally.;)

[colinm345]

If it was recorded more than 50 years ago then maybe, I'd prefer the sound quality on a more recent recording personally.;)

Well I have heard both ,now Steve dont start :D:D:D:D

[Corabar Steve]

Well I have heard both ,now Steve dont start :D:D:D:D
Yeah, but you were around when most of it was written :D :d :D :d

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Copyright in a sound recording expires 50 years from the end of the year in which it was made or, if published in this time, 50 years from the end of the year of publication. If not published during that 50 year period, but it is played in public or communicated to the public during that period, 50 years from the first of these to happen.:)

And if you read the Gowers report into fairuse, they are reviewing that at the moment.

I believe they are trying to extend the copyright period to 75 years too.


This is what we use http://www.tunebite.com/en/tunebite/index.html?affiliate=1003

the original DRM VMA is left intact and an MP3 copy of it is produced in the Tunbite folder:)



Which is then subject to royalties as you've made a copy.

[Corabar Entertainment]

I believe they are trying to extend the copyright period to 75 years too.A recent attempt to extend the period failed through the courts - but that was for a period of the lifetime of the owner of the copyright plus x number of years (can't recall the figure)

[colinm345]

Yeah, but you were around when most of it was written :D :d :D :d

Very true,but I cant remember that well how it sounded apart from the lead on on the old 78s was a liitle like someone munching crisps:)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Were crisps invented then??:whistle:

[Corabar Steve]

Yes but they were called Turnips

[colinm345]

1. The copyright that applies to the composition, musical score and lyrics of a musical work. This is signified by the traditional ‘C in a circle’ © symbol and remains in effect for 70 years after the death of the last remaining author.
2. The copyright that applies to the sound recording itself which is signified by the ‘P in a circle’ symbol and remains in effect for 50 years from the death of the last remianing author or from when the work was made available to the public, by authorised release, performance, broadcast, etc.

So, to provide an example, let’s say that you wish to incorporate a section of Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture into your own musical composition. It would be legal for you to record your own version of the 1812 Overture because Tchaikovsky has been dead for much longer than 70 years, ergo his compositions are now in the public domain. However, it would not be legal for you to sample somebody else’s recording of the 1812 Overture that had been released in the last 50 years. You would not be in breach of Tchaikovsky’s copyright as the author of the composition but you would be in breach of copyright of the owner of the recording you sampled.

It is the duration of copyright on sound recordings that the music industry is lobbying to change from 50 years to 95 years (or longer), and it is this issue that is the focus of the Release The Music campaign.


Were crisps invented then??:whistle:

You are getting as bad as Steve:D :D :D :D

[Corabar Entertainment]

Colin, do you mind me asking for the source of that info, because I understood that the 'x years after death' wasn't the case in this country, but was in the US

[colinm345]

Colin, do you mind me asking for the source of that info, because I understood that the 'x years after death' wasn't the case in this country, but was in the US

Of course not http://www.releasethemusic.org/press/contact-us/

[Corabar Entertainment]

:confused: :confused: That link takes me through to the 'Contact Us' page of that Site.

I had a quick look around though, and the first thing found about copyright periods was here (http://www.releasethemusic.org/press/briefing-pack/) where is states: "The copyright term on sound recordings is 50 years."

[colinm345]

This may be useful then http://www.releasethemusic.org/events/release-the-music-debate/


:confused: :confused: That link takes me through to the 'Contact Us' page of that Site.

I had a quick look around though, and the first thing found about copyright periods was here (http://www.releasethemusic.org/press/briefing-pack/) where is states: "The copyright term on sound recordings is 50 years."

Then try this one http://www.releasethemusic.org/learn-more/a-guide-to-copyright-in-sound-recordings/:) :) :)

[Corabar Entertainment]

This may be useful then http://www.releasethemusic.org/events/release-the-music-debate/
Then try this one http://www.releasethemusic.org/learn-more/a-guide-to-copyright-in-sound-recordings/:) :) :)Those two contradict each other (on the same site!) With one saying it's a straight 50 years, and the other stating the 'after-death' rule!

However, I have just taken a straw poll on several well-established and known Sites, and all state the 50 year rule (including this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6247533.stm) a few days ago on the BBC), so I think that the Site you are quoting may be getting a little confused! (Unsurprisingly given the state of the laws at the moment :D :D )

[colinm345]

Yes it does seem contradictory but does state



Therefore, the two types of copyright that apply when talking about music copyright are:

1. The copyright that applies to the composition, musical score and lyrics of a musical work. This is signified by the traditional ‘C in a circle’ © symbol and remains in effect for 70 years after the death of the last remaining author.
2. The copyright that applies to the sound recording itself which is signified by the ‘P in a circle’ symbol and remains in effect for 50 years from the death of the last remianing author or from when the work was made available to the public, by authorised release, performance, broadcast, etc.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Yes, that's what I said Colin - but that that was the ONLY place that it says that and that everywhere else (including at least 2 other places on the same site) says 50 years.

So I think it ould be unwise to rely on that info in the circumstances

[sleah]

Yes, that's what I said Colin - but that that was the ONLY place that it says that and that everywhere else (including at least 2 other places on the same site) says 50 years.


The key is in the part below:


Yes it does seem contradictory but does state
50 years from the death of the last remianing author or from when the work was made available to the public, by authorised release, performance, broadcast, etc.

edit: with regard to the sound recording:
So if a track was never played in public, then it expires 50 yrs AFTER the authors death. Normally of course, a track will be played in public soon after it is recorded.

Confused? You will be!

Going back to the OP's comment.
Can a sound recording be copied that is out of copyright but the composition is still in copyright????

[colinm345]

Yes, that's what I said Colin - but that that was the ONLY place that it says that and that everywhere else (including at least 2 other places on the same site) says 50 years.

So I think it ould be unwise to rely on that info in the circumstances

Sorry Angela beg to differ as it states that the recording copyright appears to be in two parts,the the composition,and the sound recording itself ,although I admit I have never heard that one before,so as the lnk posted everyone has an invitation to attend their meeting to enable them to explain exactly what they mean:)

[colinm345]

The key is in the part below:



edit: with regard to the sound recording:
So if a track was never played in public, then it expires 50 yrs AFTER the authors death. Normally of course, a track will be played in public soon after it is recorded.

Confused? You will be!

Going back to the OP's comment.
Can a sound recording be copied that is out of copyright but the composition is still in copyright????

not quite what i posted was this:)
1. The copyright that applies to the composition, musical score and lyrics of a musical work. This is signified by the traditional ‘C in a circle’ © symbol and remains in effect for 70 years after the death of the last remaining author.:)

and you are quite right I AM AS ALWAYS CONFUSED:D

[Corabar Entertainment]

Sorry - I was talking about the sound recording, not the song-writing/lyrics copyright and the fact that the Site you have quoted says:-

"2. The copyright that applies to the sound recording itself which is signified by the ‘P in a circle’ symbol and remains in effect for 50 years from the death of the last remianing author or from when the work was made available to the public, by authorised release, performance, broadcast, etc."

I have just been on to the UK Patent Office website (which is obviously the definitive authority on the subject!) and they state:-

"Copyright exists in your original music composition or score for your life plus 70 years from the end of the year of your death. The same length of time applies for the lyrics, whereas the sound recording only lasts for 50 years from the end of the year in which it was made or, if published in this time, 50 years from the end of the year of publication. If not published during that 50 year period, but it is played in public or communicated to the public during that period, then copyright will last for 50 years from when this happens."

.... so nothing about 50 years after the death of anyone. That was my point.

You can read the information here:- http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/c-applies/c-music.htm

[colinm345]

Thats ok Angela in fact the whole thing although confusing is quite interesting and worth researching if only for ''the hell of it'':)

You are spot on with the 50 years on the recording side of things

However you can see my point regarding the two parts of it
the second being the copyright that applies to the composition, musical score and lyrics of a musical work. This is signified by the traditional ‘C in a circle’ © symbol and remains in effect for 70 years after the death of the last remaining author:confused: :confused: :confused:

I just wished I lived nearer so that I could attend the meeting to find out what the hell they are on about:D :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Corabar Entertainment]

Well as I understand it (in simple terms), the writing of the song (both the music and the lyrics) is treated in the same way as any other written work; whereas the music itself (ie the recording) has a flat 50 year copyright - the only question being when that 50 years starts running.

[colinm345]

And if you read the Gowers report into fairuse, they are reviewing that at the moment.

I believe they are trying to extend the copyright period to 75 years too.



Which is then subject to royalties as you've made a copy.

Good point but the DJ licence said you could make a copy as a back up??:)

Or am I splitting hairs and just trying to make an excuse:D :D :D :D


Well as I understand it (in simple terms), the writing of the song (both the music and the lyrics) is treated in the same way as any other written work; whereas the music itself (ie the recording) has a flat 50 year copyright - the only question being when that 50 years starts running.

Not quite:D
Duration of copyright
The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration as;

Typographical arrangement of published editions 25 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first published.

[sleah]

Just to throw something else in.... another good reason why drm should be taken out and shot.
What happens when drm'd tracks go out of copyright? Who's to say digital media won't last over 50 or 75 years? It's more likely to than any other format so far.
That said, I doubt any of the drm providers will last even a fraction of that.

So when Apple go to the wall and no-one takes them over, millions of peoples music collections will be wiped out in an instant. Also as technology changes how can any drm provider guarantee to support it indefinately?
MP3/WMV/AAC etc will become outdated but at least without drm tracks could easily be copied to a newer format.
Just shows how stubborn and short sighted the whole music industry really is!