PaT testing requirement DJ's

[DK Karaoke]

Hi all,

Been wondering about the legal issues around PaT testing, and before everyone jumps on me, I am fully aware of the safety issues etc., plus the regulations, however, there are some dj sites that state its a legal requirement, particularly for dj's to have their equipment PaT tested.

I have checked with the HSE and the is no requirement 'in law' for these tests, again ignoring the safety aspect, which we would not ignore of course. However, my issue is with some sites saying its a legal requirement etc.

Also, if your equipment is less than 12 months old, depending on the type of equipment, it could be 24 months, it does not require PaT testing. This is because under the Plugs and Sockets safety regulation 1994, plus others, manufacturers have to comply with far more stringent regulations than applies under a PaT test, in order to be able to sell electrical equipment.

Therefore are we to assume that all manufacturers have not conformed with these regulations and we have to test all new equipment we buy before we can use it. I dont think so.

You will also find that venues who normally require PaT certificates do not insist on a cert. if your equipment is new, or as in our case (except for computers/laptops) less than 12 months old.

Any thoughts on the subject would be welcome.

[Corabar Steve]

http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3697&highlight=TEST

http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2722&highlight=TEST

http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2497&highlight=TEST

There are more threads on the subject, but these are the first 3 I found

[theoloyla]

As far as I am aware it is not a legal requirement but is reccommended good practice and will help you from getting sued/prosecuted if the unthinkable were to happen. SEDA insists that all members gear is tested and several agencies, public authorities, PLC's, hotel chains etc do also. The interval of testing must be reasonable according to use. The normal appears to be annually in the disco business (but in other industries it can be less or more) so on that basis new equipment should not require testing for up to one year.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Not a legal requirement, but possibly the only way of showing your gear is safe, hence the reason many people use it.

[Corabar Entertainment]

PAT (per se) is not law, and people shouldn't say that it is. However, it would be very difficult to prove that you are complying with the law without it - ie it forms part of your records showing that you are regularly inspecting and ensuring that equipment is safe to use.

As for the '12 month issue': it is certainly not unheard of for a new piece of kit to fail a PAT test, and personally, I have never come across a venue that distinguishes between the two. Many venues ask for copies because their insurance policy stipulates that no equipment shall be brought onto the premises unless it has been PAT tested, and the insurance companies certainly don't distinguish. In any event, the magical '12 months' that we all talk about for PAT is a bit of a myth as well: it has become the 'industry standard' for the test period, but, in fact, it really depends on how often the equipment is used as to how often it should be tested.

[Corabar Steve]

The interval of testing must be reasonable according to use. The normal appears to be annually in the disco business (but in other industries it can be less or more) That actually depends on the appliance.
so on that basis new equipment should not require testing for up to one year. Try telling that to certain Local Authorities. If it's in use, test it.


That actually depends on the appliance.

To clarify http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ed/laugh.gif, frequency of test depends on type of premises it's used in / who uses it, type of equipment (stationary / fixed equipment, IT equipment, moveable equipment, portable equipment, or hand held equipment), & class of equipment. Depending on these variables suggested testing should be carried out anything between 1 week to 48 months!

The accepted "norm" for disco equipment is 1 year, although (IMO) if used every week I would say 3 or 6 monthly would be more sensible.

[Vectis]

The accepted "norm" for disco equipment is 1 year, although (IMO) if used every week I would say 3 or 6 monthly would be more sensible.

In some cases I agree... extension leads, lighting that is exposed ortends to be dragged around or placed on the floor and kicked etc.. But not stuff that's securely fastened inside of flightcases that Joe Public neither sees, touches nor cares about?

Every 12 months, definitely. Including new gear. I had a brand new mixer fail PAT, and when I investigated the earth wire was dangling around inside the box instead of being fastened to a post.

[DK Karaoke]

In some cases I agree... extension leads, lighting that is exposed ortends to be dragged around or placed on the floor and kicked etc.. But not stuff that's securely fastened inside of flightcases that Joe Public neither sees, touches nor cares about?

Every 12 months, definitely. Including new gear. I had a brand new mixer fail PAT, and when I investigated the earth wire was dangling around inside the box instead of being fastened to a post.

thanks for all the replies, and would suggest that in the case of the above, in this case the manufacturer is at fault, for letting the equipment loose on the market without conforming to the regulations.

My point, which I dont think has been explored enough, is the supposed need to have new equipment PaT tested. Even the HSE have admitted this is not required. But, bearing in mind the safety issue, and the peace of mind you get or supposed to get from PaT testing, I suppose it justifies it.

Having said that though, too many people/organisations are jumping on the bandwagon here, effectively making money out of people for nothing really. After all, the equipment can still be unsafe after a PaT test. The test only certifies the equipment at the time of testing.

Also, as I said earlier on, equipment tested by the manufacturer prior to sale, is put through more stringent testing, than it would be during a PaT test. Even PaT testing professional organisations, will tell you this.

Also, how many of you have insisted on seeing certificates of compliance on all the electrical installations at the vaious venues that insist on seeing DJ certificates. Whats 'good for the goose is also good for the gander', as they say.

[Vectis]

thanks for all the replies, and would suggest that in the case of the above, in this case the manufacturer is at fault, for letting the equipment loose on the market without conforming to the regulations..

Yep - in my case an easy fix, and if I was a non-PAT cowboy this could have turned out nasty if some drunken idiot sloshed a pint over the mixer. Not going to name the vendor but their name begins with N, and ends in 'umark' and I think a similar problem has been discussed on this very forum of late!


My point, which I dont think has been explored enough, is the supposed need to have new equipment PaT tested. Even the HSE have admitted this is not required. But, bearing in mind the safety issue, and the peace of mind you get or supposed to get from PaT testing, I suppose it justifies it.

Having said that though, too many people/organisations are jumping on the bandwagon here, effectively making money out of people for nothing really. After all, the equipment can still be unsafe after a PaT test. The test only certifies the equipment at the time of testing.

PATs, MOTs - same thing. It was satisfactory on the day of the test. The brakes may well sieze or fail on your way home from the test centre!



Also, how many of you have insisted on seeing certificates of compliance on all the electrical installations at the vaious venues that insist on seeing DJ certificates. Whats 'good for the goose is also good for the gander', as they say.

Funny you should ask that. I ALWAYS carry my PAT and PLI certs nicely laminated and have yet to be asked for them. And I work in plenty of hotels and council-owned premises.

However, I ALWAYS make a point of asking the person in charge of the venue about their fire safety policy and evacuation instructions as its a condition of my PLI that I am seen to do so as part of a health & safety assessment. My word does that bring about some funny looks!! It's almost like I speak to them in mandarin!!

[Have a disco]

As far as I am aware it is not a legal requirement but is reccommended good practice and will help you from getting sued/prosecuted if the unthinkable were to happen. SEDA insists that all members gear is tested and several agencies, public authorities, PLC's, hotel chains etc do also. The interval of testing must be reasonable according to use. The normal appears to be annually in the disco business (but in other industries it can be less or more) so on that basis new equipment should not require testing for up to one year.

Set according to use, leaves the rule wide open to abuse in itsself lets see I could say that I only need to do mine every 3 years for instance, another disco busier than me could need it doing every 3 months???

Certain chains of big Hotels do expect it done at least yearly but with no one enforcing the issue within any local authority it will be very hard to have a set benchmark for all to follow lets face it even the HSA cant help us regarding this issue as its not tied rigidly by law...????

[Thames Valley Discos]

But as far as visual inspection goes. I do this at least once a month . Check all cables for loose cables, breaks, etc. Its me that will get a whack if faulty.

[DK Karaoke]

PATs, MOTs - same thing. It was satisfactory on the day of the test. The brakes may well sieze or fail on your way home from the test centre!

Nice one and true.


However, I ALWAYS make a point of asking the person in charge of the venue about their fire safety policy and evacuation instructions as its a condition of my PLI that I am seen to do so as part of a health & safety assessment. My word does that bring about some funny looks!! It's almost like I speak to them in mandarin!!

I know the feeling, I did this just the other day, they were 'flamergasted' you may not find that in the dictonary, but I guess you know what I mean. They also went very much on the defensive, in the sense,'sure what can we do to help make sure your diso goes without any hickups':eek: :eek: :eek: Guess they have not conformed with the regs, and this was a major hotel chain, if not the biggest.
:) :) :)

[nigelwright7557]

PAT testing is definitely to be encouraged.
Its fine unless someone claims against you.
If you look like you havent tried to be safe then you could be in serious trouble.

I PAT test my own equipment being an electroncis engineer so I have to self certifcate which is a bit odd.

At the end of the day I want to be safe myself so I would always make sure the equipment was up to the job.

A PAT test doesnt guarantee anything. Simply fitting a wrong fuse could cause serious problems. I am gobsmacked at the amount of low current equipment with 13 amp fuses in it. 13 amps going down a thin earth wire could fuse the earth wire before the fuse goes and kill someone.

[A1DL]

13 amps going down a thin earth wire could fuse the earth wire before the fuse goes and kill someone.

:confused: :confused:
can you explain that one please

[mb3]

Of course, there is another side to the matter. Safe electrical equipment only remains safe if the socket it is plugged into is also safe. If you connect perfect equipment to a faulty wiring installation the whole set-up is dangerous.

The DJ should ask to see the Venue's "Certificate of Periodic Inspection and Test" (to BS7671 - 16th edition Wiring Regulations) just as much as the venue should ask for the DJ's proof of PAT testing.

It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that the fixed wiring is tested regularly. Faulty equipment connected to a safe installation should trip the installed RCD, while a socket with a faulty earth can make the whole set-up dangerous.

Electrical safety needs to be a PARTNERSHIP between the DJ and the venue.

[Vectis]

Always carry my own RCDs to avoid the necessity.

[mb3]

Always carry my own RCDs to avoid the necessity.

That's good practice... I think most of us do. However, an RCD will not protect against the scenario (ok... unlikely, but nowhere near impossible) of:

Phase / Neutral reversed
Break in Circuit Protective Conductor ("earth wire")
Phase / Earth short circuit (socket screw through live wire)

That's why the venue needs R2 or R1+R2 to be checked regularly. (Ie "Loop Test")

[Corabar Entertainment]

I issue all our DJs with socket testers as well as RCDs: before anything else gets plugged in, the sockets are tested. If a socket fails a test, we won't use it.

[Vectis]

Yep. We got one of those too. Suppose I should've added it to the previous post :p

[addoaddo]

Electrical safety should be more about continuous testing rather than relying on a yearly test. Every time a lead is used it should have a quick visual check to make sure it is not damaged.

Electricity is the same as any other risk assessment, the severity and likelihood need to be reviewed. The chance of one of my extension leads suddenly having the Live and Natural swapped is very low but the chance of the cable being caught and damaged in a flight case is medium.

The sockets testers should be used both to check the building supply as it is surprising how often an earth is missing. In addition I have one in my mixer flight case. This constantly checks the wiring up to this point and will detect a earth wire failure.

At an extreme example I have had to test a widow maker. In theory this passes all the tests on the machine but is one of the most lethal pieces of kit.


Companies hide behind PAT testing due to a lack of understanding.

[DazzyD]

Just thought I'd add my thoughts to this one.

First of all, PAT testing (that's a weird term as it means Portable Appliance Testing testing and, as such, is bad English but we all know what I mean!) is not a legal requirement but there have been a lot of campaigns in our industry to raise awareness of its benefits. I agree that the test certificate is only really valid on the day the test is done. But there is nothing to stop us disco/karaoke service providers visually checking our own gear for obvious defects such as loose power cables, ratting inside the units, etc. I look over my own gear before every show. It takes about 20 minutes but I've learnt what to look for and I now know when items need proper attention.

However, there are also some PAT cowboys out there who claim to do the testing. I took a system to a local tester who passed all of the items tested. However, after testing, I noticed that a cable on one of my Acme lights was loose and showing the inner cores in it's cable - a problem which should have been an automatic failure. I then decided to get the gear tested again (in the same condition it was the first time) and had 3 items fail (out of 32 items including power extensions - big tip - don't buy cheap 4-way trailing extensions!). The problems were easily fixed as my business partner (i.e. my dad!) is a qualified and time-served electrician/electronic engineer and could fix the problems for under £5. Lesson learnt - just because someone gives you a certificate and computer printout doesn't mean the job has been done properly. We will not be going to that tester again (even though it's a biggish company with blue-chip clients).


Some venues do ask for proof of PAT. I did a gig in Middlesbrough last year which were very strict about seeing proof of PAT. Unfortunately, they didn't know what to look for cos they actually looked at my PLI certificate (it was first in my company portfolio) and told me that would do fine. This left me very confused but, as a plus point, it got rid of a rather annoying jobsworth very quick. If he'd looked at the second sheet, he would have proof of PAT along with a full print-out of the PAT test itself.

Also in agreement, I have come across venues (one in particular) where the electrics supply has been dodgy. The first thing I noticed with one regular venue was that my lighting effect bulbs were blowing a bit too often for my liking. I now use RCDs & surge-protector trailing extension leads and the problem has vanished. God bless Belkin is all I can say! I would definately recommend them. Not cheap but neither was my sound-to-light box whose internal fuse blew and took out two PAR 56 bulbs at the same time. Definately a good investment!

Anyway, I'm going on a bit (nothing new there then!) so I'll leave it there for now!

[DazzyD]

Before anyone points it out I meant rattling and not ratting. I really need to start proof reading my submissions before hitting the post button!