Avoiding Venues

[Shaun]

Do any of you proactively avoid taking bookings in problem venues?.

I recently made the decision not to play a local venue because of an overly sensitive Sound Limiter. I had many complaints about only being able to play at background music levels the last time I played there. The venue had reset the limiter to a lower decibel limit.

I've had 3 enquiries for this venue this week alone. Lost revenue because of a dodgy hall :(

There's no way to bypass the limiter in this venue and the hall-keeper is adamant about it's use.


I just needed to rant..... *breathe deeply.....and relax*

[soundtracker]

Yup! Anywhere with the words Social Club in the title!!!!!!!!!

[theoloyla]

Yes I have turned away work at various venues on the grounds of my personal sfety and my vehicle and equipment's safety.

[CRAZY K]

Yup! Anywhere with the words Social Club in the title!!!!!!!!!

And WMC !!!!!!

Yes there are two venues--- one near Hemel Hempstead and one in Maidenhead I wont ever touch again---its just not worth bothering with the sound limiters.

If you start a list of these venues let me know--I will give details.

I actually tell people if they havent booked the hall to avoid limiters---as I wont be available if they do.

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

Do any of you proactively avoid taking bookings in problem venues?.

I recently made the decision not to play a local venue because of an overly sensitive Sound Limiter. I had many complaints about only being able to play at background music levels the last time I played there. The venue had reset the limiter to a lower decibel limit.




I'm with you on that one, Elite.

Sound limiters are, generally, a nightmare :(

There are some venues near me where you can get around the problem, as the microphone is mounted on the ceiling, and you can get to it & wrap a sock or towel over it, but there are a couple of venues where I refuse to play, as the level is set way too low.

If the client wants a disco, but the limiter only allows me to play at background music levels, I will reluctantly refuse the booking, as I always turn down work where I'm unable (for WHATEVER reason) to provide what the client wants.

[Shaun]

It's enfuriating!. The call I got earlier (but had to turn down) could have been extremely lucrative. I explained the situation to the client and he was rightly concerned about the negative impact the limiter would have on the event. He said he'd try persuade the hall to turn off the limiter for the duration of the event and call me back if it's possible. I know there's no chance of that, and as such he's not been back in touch.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Do any of you proactively avoid taking bookings in problem venues?.

I recently made the decision not to play a local venue because of an overly sensitive Sound Limiter. I had many complaints about only being able to play at background music levels the last time I played there. The venue had reset the limiter to a lower decibel limit.

I've had 3 enquiries for this venue this week alone. Lost revenue because of a dodgy hall :(

There's no way to bypass the limiter in this venue and the hall-keeper is adamant about it's use.


I just needed to rant..... *breathe deeply.....and relax*


Funnily enough, this happened yesterday.

A woman rang up wanting to book us for an 80th birthday, and after I'd given her all the details, she told me there was a noise limiter.

I told her that I don't like turning work away, but it could be a real problem, as it appears to be when I'm using the mic that it sets them off, (That's what happened last time) and this could cause a problem if the function needed a bit of interactive/chatty DJing, or even to the point of announcing things and it cutting out.

She thanked me for my honesty and I asked her if she could check the Db limit on the noise limiter, which she is and then is going to come back to me.

The funny thing is, is that she had her wedding reception at the same place and she said the DJ was awful 'cos his equipment kept cutting out.(They weren't told at the time there was a limiter)

I asked why she would go back there, and it's because her parents have been members at the club for over 50 years and it is in walking distance.

She said she was well aware of the problems and would advise people in advance this time though.

[Dragonfly]

Absolutely Shaun there are 3 venues that I can think of that I will not do at all ... Mainly due to totally ridiculous access If I get enquiries for them I'm either booked already or if I feel like selling my sould to the devil nightmare venue = nightmare quote.

[soundtracker]

Oh dear, now I'm gonna get accused of being self -righteous, but heigh - ho, I've been called worse.
If a venue has a sound limiter installed, it will usually have been put there for a reason - perhaps because of residents in a hotel, or because the neighbours have complained in the past. Now if you go blocking off the sound-limiter, and a council official happens to clock the volume, due to complaints from the locals- this may lead to the venue losing its entertainments licence. This may not just impact on you, if you are a regular entertainer at the venue, but also on other DJs that play there, but do abide by the rules, and potentially on the Hotel staff who no longer have a job, because of the licence being lost.
We keep banging on about PLI and PAT and being legal etc, but sometimes we can be our own worse enemies.
Sound limiters are a problem, but if you've got a booking from someone that is likely to want banging choons, and you know the place has a limiter, chat it through with them, and get them to move the event, or accept that you won't be making ears bleed. Yes I know sometimes they're set too low- so just refuse it - but don't compromise your professionalism.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Oh dear, now I'm gonna get accused of being self -righteous, but heigh - ho, I've been called worse.
If a venue has a sound limiter installed, it will usually have been put there for a reason - perhaps because of residents in a hotel, or because the neighbours have complained in the past. Now if you go blocking off the sound-limiter, and a council official happens to clock the volume, due to complaints from the locals- this may lead to the venue losing its entertainments licence. This may not just impact on you, if you are a regular entertainer at the venue, but also on other DJs that play there, but do abide by the rules, and potentially on the Hotel staff who no longer have a job, because of the licence being lost.
We keep banging on about PLI and PAT and being legal etc, but sometimes we can be our own worse enemies.
Sound limiters are a problem, but if you've got a booking from someone that is likely to want banging choons, and you know the place has a limiter, chat it through with them, and get them to move the event, or accept that you won't be making ears bleed.

What are the laws on this then?

I thought music only had to be turned down after 11pm?

The venue in my last post has to have the music off by 11:15pm and yet they still have a limiter.

[Shaun]

Yes I know sometimes they're set too low- so just refuse it


Exactly what what I've done.

[LastMinuteDJs.net]

As tempting as it is, I don't think we should be covering or tampering with equipment that we shouldnt.

There's a venue I used to do in Edinburgh, Hotel, with a limiter. DJs had to use the in-house amp and speakers that were plugged into the wall and routed to the limiter. Music kept cutting out throughout the night to the clients dismay.

Environmental Health put the limiter in and sealed it in a box not to be unlocked by anyone but them (so no adjusting by even the venue staff). Don't think there was a microphone picking up noise levels, just the output going through it.

It was put in because neighbours kept complaining about the noise (even reported them to the tv show neighbours from hell). As a result all events were run at near background level.

The problem with limiters is that they are usually installed during the day and the levels set in an empty room. Put 100 people in there absorbing the sound and creating their own noise, the music level chosen becomes unworkable.

[rob1963]

There are some venues near me where you can get around the problem, as the microphone is mounted on the ceiling, and you can get to it & wrap a sock or towel over it


I'd just like to point out that on the occasions when I've covered the mic, it's actually been on the advice of officials at the venue!

I've even had officials tell me that if I have a long lead, I can plug in outside the room which will avoid the limiter!

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. It just enables you to give the client a disco (which they booked) rather than background music (which they didn't!).

[Shaun]

I'd just like to point out that on the occasions when I've covered the mic, it's actually been on the advice of officials at the venue!

I've even had officials tell me that if I have a long lead, I can plug in outside the room which will avoid the limiter!

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. It just enables you to give the client a disco (which they booked) rather than background music (which they didn't!).


To be honest if I turned up at a venue with a limiter and the official offered a 'remedy' to the problem, I'd take his advice too. Whether it meant running a cable to another power point or putting a sock over it (that's a new one though..lol)

[LastMinuteDJs.net]

I agree. Don't think anyone would object to you doing it 'on the advice of the management'. Think the objections come when taking the law into your own hands.

[spin mobile disco]

I have a venue nearby I try to not take bookings from as the distance to take gear is a long way with poor access and security. I took a wedding there for next month and went to check out the venue last week. Got to be like quarter of a mile through building up 3 flights of stairs and you have to move car after unloading. So when venue rang me up this week for a short notice booking I turned it down as it just wasnt worth it.
Not being lazy or anything but for a cheap £160 booking wasnt worth the agro. If it had been a £250 booking maybe but even then I would have to give it consideration.

[Shaun]

Ross, your post has been deleted (as will all posts that now contain swearing). Please feel free to repost it without expletives

[ross@rds]

Ross, your post has been deleted (as will all posts that now contain swearing). Please feel free to repost it without expletives

Was there swearing in it ???

[Shaun]

All the asterixs in the last line

Please refer to the site rules!.


16. Please refrain from using profanities or bad language. Please remember this Site is accessible to all age groups without restriction, so be mindful that children may be reading. There is a censor built into the forum which filters out most bad language and profanities, but please do not try to get around this by adding different characters or spaces into the word, or by providing some of the letters and filling in the rest with your own asterisks. Instead, kindly do not use such language in the first place.

This has been brought up time and time again lately.

[ross@rds]

Ok sorry about that will keep it in mind.

[Shaun]

Thanks Ross.

[dj steady]

Their are a number of venues/areas i will not work for various reasons and they are listed on the front of our diary so none of the booking team make the mistake of taking work on in these areas/venues...

most are just undisirable areas that atract too much trouble..fighting etc.
the others are a mixture of sound meters, bad parking/access to venue and total dumps that i would not want to associate my disco with....or my personal pet hate arogant:Censored: who think they own the venue your disco, and think they can talk and treat you like a piece of :Censored: guess wot........not happening.......

[PropellerHeadCase]

I have two venues that I refuse to play at.

One is a local Asian seafood restaurant...
...to clarify, I understand that what we call Asian you English call Chinese, and what we call Indian you call Asian - in this case the Bride and Groom were Malaysian Chinese.
The one and only time I played there the Bride and Groom weren't told until they arrived that they could only have six people at the head table, not the ten that they wanted. Given Asian custom it was a hard choice between dissing the attendants or dissing the parents (the attendants lost). There was old grease trodden into the carpets and the place smelt of stale oil.

When it got to packing down the staff were extremely good at moving the tables and chairs in my way sometimes doing so mere seconds before I was about to walk through the space in question to the point where, by about half way throgh the pack up, I was having to carry everything half way around the perimeter of the building to exit (it seated 300 - you do the maths).

The other is a "golf club" (the flying quote as it has a driving range and a mini golf course and is in a densely populated residential area with all the attendant noise control issues.


Speaking of these noise-limiter things...

We simply don't have these in New Zealand but my feeling would be that tampering with them even when directed to surely endangers your equipment? Noise abatement laws in New Zealand are dealt with at the local council level. Auckland City Council confiscates equipment if it is in contravention of an abatement notice. What this means is that if the venue is served an abatement notice (typically with a 72 hour time period attached) then contravention of that notice endangers your equipment even if the notice was served because of the DJ that played a night or two prior.

For myself I hate turning bookings away, as we all do, but if people have booked at a venue who are less than forthcoming about any noise control issues I will always have that conversation with the client to make sure they realise that it simply won't be loud and that, therefore, if they like Club Dance or Hard Rock or Hip-Hop/R'n'B it simply won't sound the way they want it to.

Of course if I've never played at the venue and they are less than forthcoming with me, too, until the night... :(

I did a hotel several years back where I didn't know that they had noise issues (most large hotels in Auckland have the function rooms set well away from the accommodations). The bride wanted some Happy Hardcore later in the night but I couldn't even make Nat 'King' Cole sound reasonable at the volume I was forced to play at.

[Twinspin]

The only venues i will refuse to do is.

Venues that dont cough up the full amount they owe me. or A venue that sends me all the way there. without telling me. and when i get there its cancelled.

im not too picky with venues to be honest.

[Candybeatdiscos]

I wont turn work down, unless i am booked, at the end of the day only the dancefloor needs music loud enough to dance too, the rest of the room people just want to chat.

As for social clubs etc some of the best gigs i have had were in social clubs and if the client is prepared to pay my fee then i will play at thier chosen venue, regardless of its type, dont get me wrong i would love to play at the swish hotels, but at the end of the day a school, community centre, hotel social or pub....they are just venues and as long as i am paid before the gig then i have no problem

[ross@rds]

I wont turn work down, unless i am booked, at the end of the day only the dancefloor needs music loud enough to dance too, the rest of the room people just want to chat.

As for social clubs etc some of the best gigs i have had were in social clubs and if the client is prepared to pay my fee then i will play at thier chosen venue, regardless of its type, dont get me wrong i would love to play at the swish hotels, but at the end of the day a school, community centre, hotel social or pub....they are just venues and as long as i am paid before the gig then i have no problem

Spot one mate work is work and only people dancing need to hear the music. Agree with social clubs most are small but there is something about them they just give me a buzz. Dont relly like hotels :bang: :bang: they are not my style lol.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I wont turn work down, unless i am booked, at the end of the day only the dancefloor needs music loud enough to dance too, the rest of the room people just want to chat.



This may be true, but I have found that it's not the music that is the problem, it's when you use the mic for announcements and also people singing etc.

[Shaun]

I wont turn work down, unless i am booked, at the end of the day only the dancefloor needs music loud enough to dance too, the rest of the room people just want to chat.


The venue in question doesn't allow music loud enough to dance to. When several guests are approaching you all night complaining about the sound levels and it's not possible to use the mic to make announcements....there's a major issue that has a detrimental (sp?) effect on the evening.

[Candybeatdiscos]

if you are aware of a limiter then discussing it with the client up front and advising of the problem ensures that you are not blamed, also if your not already aware of it - as soon as you become aware then again discuss it with the client. either way its not our fault and you have made client aware at the onset

[Shaun]

The invited guests may not be aware of the issue though. Last time I played at the venue I had many guests approach me to complain that they couldn't hear the disco at the back of the hall, this was despite me making an announcement earlier in the night. How many of the guests that hadn't approached me went home complaining that they couldn't hear the music and blamed the DJ as a result?. Everytime I do a show I'm not just selling myself to the hiring client, I'm selling myself to potential clients. It's far easier to avoid this problem venue than having guests complaining about the disco when it's through no fault of ourselves.

[Dragonfly]

if you are aware of a limiter then discussing it with the client up front and advising of the problem ensures that you are not blamed, also if your not already aware of it - as soon as you become aware then again discuss it with the client. either way its not our fault and you have made client aware at the onset

not always the way though as Shaun says how many times have we all had a call from someone who went to a wedding last week and the dj played absolute rubbish all night???

"really sorry to hear that maybe they were playing from a playlist from the bride and groom"

"oh ..... didnt think of that"

you have to take into account "oh there is a perfectly logical explanation why we can't hear the music and the dj isnt using the mic" is not first and formost in joe publics mind

usually

"god whos this wet lettuce with rubbish gear?" is.

[Dazzy D]

I totally agree with you there, Shaun. I treat every gig as an advertisement of my service to potential clients and I do get a good deal of extra bookings from the gigs I do.

However, I would be very reluctant to turn away work just because of noise limiters (didn't these used to be called Automatic Volume Limiters or AVL's?). The biggest problem I ever had with an AVL was at a venue in Sunderland. The booking was a wedding and the function room was fitted with laminate flooring. It wasn't the volume of the music that caused the problems but it was people scraping their chairs across the floor. The resulting screeches sent the display right up in to the red. The power didn't actually cut off but it certainly had me sweating!

I would have no hesitation in refusing work where there are safety issues for either myself, my crew or my equipment but I would make sure I clearly explained my reasons to the client. I certainly wouldn't say "Sorry, fully booked that night.". I've found that, and I've said this before, people appreciate honesty and they may even come back to you in the future with work at different venues.

[spin mobile disco]

I played a venue with a limiter once on a white glove job, all there own gear installed just play the music. Had it bloody loud all night watching the limiter, it didnt even go onto yellow and my ears felt they would be bleeding soon. Kept being asked to turn it up by the drunks. When I turned off at the end everyone was saying they were deaf and al i could here was a that tone noise lol.
Some limiters are obviously defective / set wrong

[Corabar Steve]

There are some venues near me where you can get around the problem, as the microphone is mounted on the ceiling, and you can get to it & wrap a sock or towel over it,

Do you carry a spare sock or towel for this purpose?

[rob1963]

Do you carry a spare sock or towel for this purpose?


Yes Steve...I carry a towel anyway (to mop my brow).

Also, I always have a spare sock with me...no prizes for guessing where I keep it though! :p

:D :D :D

[soundmaster mobile disco]

Well shaun if your not wanting to work in that venue,if its within Fife ill certanly have a try and work within it.

[sleah]

What are the laws on this then?

I thought music only had to be turned down after 11pm?

The venue in my last post has to have the music off by 11:15pm and yet they still have a limiter.

There are no laws. There are regulations which are specific to venues, usually a condition of their licence.

There are some rules about car horns and sirens not being used after 11pm, but not music. If no-one complains then it don't matter:D
Although it is considered more antisocial to make a din after 11pm, so you will be more likely to be told to turn down or turn off than in the daytime.

But again there are no set rules as such, it depends on the circumstances at the time.

[super-hero]

Sound limiters are a pain. I did a pub many years ago and we gaffa taped a cushion over it, which helped. I also did a wedding a while ago and the guests singing along to the music set it off. What can you do, tell them to be quiet?

I will not work at that particular hotel again as you had to have the music so low you could not hear it at all at the back of the room.

[colint]

Think we've all been here before! if you look at the laws relating to noise polution the local council can inforce sound limiters at any time of the day or night bypass it and you can have all or any sound/video equipment seized and be sumond to court plus all of the above as pointed out by soundtracker!!!
also please remember local councils are responsible for these nasty thing's and not the venue owners, and it's the council officials that set the limits and most of them to be really truthful havn't got much of a clue as to how to use the equipment to set the limiters up in the first place hence some of the ultra low limits!
Your all going to see more of these things over the next few years because any new venues have to have a limiter as part of their licence

[Dragonfly]

we have a venue near us that the level is set at 75 decibels. i've just looked it up .... and thats normal conversation level apparently?

[theoloyla]

Think we've all been here before! if you look at the laws relating to noise polution the local council can inforce sound limiters at any time of the day or night bypass it and you can have all or any sound/video equipment seized and be sumond to court plus all of the above as pointed out by soundtracker!!!
also please remember local councils are responsible for these nasty thing's and not the venue owners, and it's the council officials that set the limits and most of them to be really truthful havn't got much of a clue as to how to use the equipment to set the limiters up in the first place hence some of the ultra low limits!
Your all going to see more of these things over the next few years because any new venues have to have a limiter as part of their licence
Very sad - but true.

[Corabar Entertainment]

One of our DJs was in a venue with a limiter on Saturday, which was set at 96dB - which is actually pretty high for these things. As per usual.... no problems with the DJ keeping the music within the levels, but 'House of Pain - Jump' set it off nicely with everyone doing just that..... JUMPING!!

If there was some way of just limiting the volume of the music without the guests singing/dancing, etc affecting them then I am sure that most of us would not hate the things the way we do!!!

[Shaun]

If there was some way of just limiting the volume of the music without the guests singing/dancing, etc affecting them then I am sure that most of us would not hate the things the way we do!!!


Very true. If there was some way of routing through the limiter so only the music output affected the outcome, there wouldn't be so much of an issue.

[CRAZY K]

Very true. If there was some way of routing through the limiter so only the music output affected the outcome, there wouldn't be so much of an issue.

I doubt it--:eek:

The neighbours would then complain about the noise of the guests shouting and yelling---dont forget that audience noise is actually louder than the music sometimes--even though it doesnt go on all night long--unless you are having a particularly successful evening:D

I agree with this idea but I doubt it will ever happen.

The kind of people who really annoy me are the ones who buy a house near a Hall or Pub --and then want a sound limiter after they move in--the same ones who move into the "country" and then complain about cows mooing and ****erels crowing.

Obviously the auto edit doesnt like those chicken type birds either !

CRAZY K
IN THE COUNTRYSIDE OF NORTHAMPTONSHIRE

[Corabar Entertainment]

I doubt it--:eek:

The neighbours would then complain about the noise of the guests shouting and yelling---dont forget that audience noise is actually louder than the music sometimes--even though it doesnt go on all night long--unless you are having a particularly successful evening:D True - but the sound limiters don't do anything to stop them anyway.... they only affect our equipment! - ie they make a racket and we suffer!

Maybe all guests at events should be hooked up to the sound limiter so that if they get too noisy they could be zapped with an electric shock! :p ;)

[Corabar Steve]

The kind of people who really annoy me are the ones who buy a house near a Hall or Pub --and then want a sound limiter after they move in--the same ones who move into the "country" and then complain about cows mooing and ****erels crowing.

Obviously the auto edit doesnt like those chicken type birds either !

Roosters Alan :d

[rob1963]

If there was some way of just limiting the volume of the music without the guests singing/dancing, etc affecting them then I am sure that most of us would not hate the things the way we do!!!

That would help a bit, but the main problem seems to be that limiters are often set too low anyway, by people who don't seem to know what they're doing.

The best thing that could happen to reduce the problem with noise limiters is for an expert to check each one individually & set the maximum to a sensible level.

I would say they are set too low in up to 50% of the venues I play at, but there are also many venues where they ARE set at a sensible level...and I can go all night without even having to look at the lights.

It seems there is no set standard, a bit like recording levels on CDs...which as we all know can vary greatly, but at least if a CD level is low we can turn up the gain.

If a limiter is set too low, the music keeps cutting out & ruins everyone's evening, and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

As mentioned alsewhere, the last time I worked in a venue with a limiter, I blasted the music out (and was using a sub) and no problem.

As soon as I said anything, it went off.

Maybe I've got a big gob or something...

[Corabar Entertainment]

:zip: :whistle:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

:zip: :whistle:

Don't worry, I purposely left the door open. :D

[Corabar Entertainment]

I know.... but I couldn't resist walking through it :D :D

[DeZine]

Hi all

I think that we can all agree that noise limiters are a bit of a pain and that for our own reasons some of us prefer NOT to work in venues with them; some of us will "work round" them (some ingenious ones!! LOL!!) and others will abide by them.

Can I refer you all to the following link:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030017.htmHealth and Safety

In particular the following part (from "Assessing the Validity of Noise Assessments")

"(iv) Using 'noise limiters' or Volume Regulatory Devices (VRDs) There are two main types:

those which cut off the power to the music system if a predetermined noise level is reached (not recommended) and
the preferred type which have a unit which will reduce the system output by discrete steps when a pre-set threshold level has been exceeded."

As you can read, the first type of limiter, THE MOST COMMONLY USED (and cheapest - now there ISN'T a suprise!! LOL!!) is not recommended because this can leave the installer of the equipment liable to litigation in the event of damage to equipment where it can be proven that the reason for installation of the device in the first place was "flawed" (which, in general, it is!).

Frankly, these limiters are installed too hastily in order to placate complaining neighbours. I once worked in a venue in which a noise limiter was in use and was working within it's limits with no problems at all. Then somebody within 2 metres of the pick-up mike of the limiter (funny that there is only one of them - there should be at least 10 of these submixed and then averaged to give an average threshold to the limiter) opens up a can of Coke and, "HEY PRESTO" - the power cuts out and my C-Audio amp fries. End of gig (I had spare amps but I refused to carry on!)

Some then argue that it is partly due to the "Noise at Work Act 1989". Again this is flawed. As long as the venus owner/promoter/licensee provides adequate hearing attenuators then the responsibility of the venue is fulfilled.

As Dj's and musicians, we are classed as self-employed persons within this act and as such are to be treated the same as staff at the venue - in effect it is the venue/promoter/licensee's responsibility that we are protected as per the act too - even if we are using our own equipment, it matters not as we are, in effect, an employee of said venue/persons! So some venues install sound limiters on their own accord (often at the behest of their insurers to be fair) in order to "protect their staff". Nonsense. It is cheaper to do this (average cost is about £650 exc VAT) rather than bespoke hearing attenuators at £275 per pair per staff member! What would you choose???

At the end of the day, limiters are ill-advisebly and then incorrectly installed. That is a fact. (I have and will continue to successfully debate with local authorities over this - it's a perk of my job!! LOL!!)

My work-round? A good graphic equaliser CORRECTLY used in order to compensate for room acoustics. So I continue to play in venues with said limiters, without bypassing them, but I "EQ" the room to avoid problems. And it works. Until someone coughs.....or shouts.......or scrapes a chair along the floor......or opens a Coke can!! Blasted infernal things!!!! LOL! :p

[CRAZY K]

Hi all

I think that we can all agree that noise limiters are a bit of a pain and that for our own reasons some of us prefer NOT to work in venues with them; some of us will "work round" them (some ingenious ones!! LOL!!) and others will abide by them.

Can I refer you all to the following link:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030017.htmHealth and Safety

In particular the following part (from "Assessing the Validity of Noise Assessments")

"(iv) Using 'noise limiters' or Volume Regulatory Devices (VRDs) There are two main types:

those which cut off the power to the music system if a predetermined noise level is reached (not recommended) and
the preferred type which have a unit which will reduce the system output by discrete steps when a pre-set threshold level has been exceeded."

As you can read, the first type of limiter, THE MOST COMMONLY USED (and cheapest - now there ISN'T a suprise!! LOL!!) is not recommended because this can leave the installer of the equipment liable to litigation in the event of damage to equipment where it can be proven that the reason for installation of the device in the first place was "flawed" (which, in general, it is!).

Frankly, these limiters are installed too hastily in order to placate complaining neighbours. I once worked in a venue in which a noise limiter was in use and was working within it's limits with no problems at all. Then somebody within 2 metres of the pick-up mike of the limiter (funny that there is only one of them - there should be at least 10 of these submixed and then averaged to give an average threshold to the limiter) opens up a can of Coke and, "HEY PRESTO" - the power cuts out and my C-Audio amp fries. End of gig (I had spare amps but I refused to carry on!)

Some then argue that it is partly due to the "Noise at Work Act 1989". Again this is flawed. As long as the venus owner/promoter/licensee provides adequate hearing attenuators then the responsibility of the venue is fulfilled.

As Dj's and musicians, we are classed as self-employed persons within this act and as such are to be treated the same as staff at the venue - in effect it is the venue/promoter/licensee's responsibility that we are protected as per the act too - even if we are using our own equipment, it matters not as we are, in effect, an employee of said venue/persons! So some venues install sound limiters on their own accord (often at the behest of their insurers to be fair) in order to "protect their staff". Nonsense. It is cheaper to do this (average cost is about £650 exc VAT) rather than bespoke hearing attenuators at £275 per pair per staff member! What would you choose???

At the end of the day, limiters are ill-advisebly and then incorrectly installed. That is a fact. (I have and will continue to successfully debate with local authorities over this - it's a perk of my job!! LOL!!)

My work-round? A good graphic equaliser CORRECTLY used in order to compensate for room acoustics. So I continue to play in venues with said limiters, without bypassing them, but I "EQ" the room to avoid problems. And it works. Until someone coughs.....or shouts.......or scrapes a chair along the floor......or opens a Coke can!! Blasted infernal things!!!! LOL! :p

So if you are still playing with "cut outs" presumably your amp is not "frying tonight" every time---or do you use something that can withstand continual switching on and off?

Last gig I was subjected to this I took my oldest amps and mixers and they went off about 10 to 15 times without any lasting damage( I think)

CRAZY K

[DeZine]

So if you are still playing with "cut outs" presumably your amp is not "frying tonight" every time---or do you use something that can withstand continual switching on and off?

Last gig I was subjected to this I took my oldest amps and mixers and they went off about 10 to 15 times without any lasting damage( I think)

CRAZY K


Don't have any cut outs any more due to eq'ing the room. However, we are fortunate where I am in that very few venues use these things and those that do provide you with a means to bypass it (alternative sockets!), even local authority venues!!

[theoloyla]

I am not particularly technically minded but why does turning the power off damage equipment. It has never hurt mine.
PS I hate blinkin' sound limiters too!

[CRAZY K]

I am not particularly technically minded but why does turning the power off damage equipment. It has never hurt mine.
PS I hate blinkin' sound limiters too!

That was my query really--presume certain types of equipment dont like being turned off and back on quickly.

Also surely if you are generating "atmosphere" the audience must set off the limiter at various intervals with clapping, shouting and singing?

That seems to be the bigger problem for me.

CRAZY K

[colint]

Unless your using older type power amplifiers you should get little or no damage because most modern amplifiers are soft start, older amps have very little protection against mains rush and this could sometimes damage mains transformers & transistors,
i think the thing most Djs are worried about are programable items like laptops, dmx lighting controllers and other stuff that use processors or programs, Lets face it if you have to wait for your system to reboot with 300 people waiting it'll seem like hours, not nice!!!
I must admit it's not something thats ever been a problem to me because I dont use a laptop (yet?) and I use a mix of lighting that dosen't rely on a programable controller apart from my roboscans
plus I know the way most limiters work because I used to install the things (sorry)

[Shaun]

plus I know the way most limiters work because I used to install the things (sorry)

Burn Him!! :D :D

http://www.blackindustries.com/images/preview-images/witch-hunter-sm.jpg

[colint]

Thats not very nice! never said I liked em did I? least I set them up right!!!!!

[Corabar Entertainment]

Burn Him!! :D :D

http://www.blackindustries.com/images/preview-images/witch-hunter-sm.jpg


Thats not very nice! never said I liked em did I? least I set them up right!!!!!OK, fair enough... he's right Shaun.

maybe we'll just singe you a bit instead then :D :D :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Burn Him!! :D :D

http://www.blackindustries.com/images/preview-images/witch-hunter-sm.jpg

I'll get the matches...:D

[Shaun]

Thats not very nice! never said I liked em did I? least I set them up right!!!!!

Have you left your sense of humour in another room tonight? :p


I'll get the matches...:D


I'll get the petrol :D

Angela...you stand-by with the fire exstinguisher.

[Candybeatdiscos]

I am not particularly technically minded but why does turning the power off damage equipment. It has never hurt mine.
PS I hate blinkin' sound limiters too!

amps can blow as can speakers - i mean the loud POP when the the power goes dead doesn't sound too good does it?

[Thames Valley Discos]

Sudden power on/off causes surges and this aloan can blow an amp,mixer,pc, etc. The fuses fitted are normally slow blow thus the boards etc blow before the fuses ever do. If you know you have them where playing, run through a UPS, that way you keep playing even when the limiter is on and no damage to gear:D
That will confuse them!:confused: :what: :Rock on:

[flatliners]

i once took a booking for 65 pounds for 1 hour just to test sound levels a guy from the council was walking around with his sound meater jotting down stuff there was people in the bar but it was a waste of time they had the limiter put in then the person who complained about the noise levels moved away
what i would do if there was a place with a limiter i would have a big sign that explains to the punters about the limiter and have it infront of the disco and if people come up and say can you turn the music up just point to the sign

[Thames Valley Discos]

on a similar note, (kind of).
I did a disco a few weeks back for teenagers. They wanted all the lights laser haze/smoke etc.
I told the manager they wanted the haze/smoke and would this be ok as i noticed a smoke detector over the dance floor.
Not a problem he said, i,ll make a note to have it switched off or covered for you.
I,m not sure what he did but the room was full of smoke, and no alarms.
Not everyone abides by laws/restrictions it would seem.

[PropellerHeadCase]

As mentioned alsewhere, the last time I worked in a venue with a limiter, I blasted the music out (and was using a sub) and no problem.

As soon as I said anything, it went off.

Maybe I've got a big gob or something...

I don't know how much you know about the technical aspects of microphones and microphone technique, so excuse me if I'm stating the obvious.

If you hold the microphone sufficiently close to your mouth you can often get what is called 'proximity effect' which is an acoustic boosting of the bass frequencies as it hits the diaphragm in the microphone. This translates down the audio-chain as bass with quite a high and hard attack (initial peak). With a sub boosting the lower frequencies you get very boomy-sounding speech.

As a rule of thumb, if you are doing speeches turn the sub off, you can leave the sub off for background music between speeches as sub frequencies at background volume are pointless.

Another rule of thumb is, if you have input EQ on your microphone roll the bass off pretty much completely, the mids and highs are what make you audible and understandable, the bass frequencies (below 100Hz) generally just detract from your clarity.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I don't know how much you know about the technical aspects of microphones and microphone technique, so excuse me if I'm stating the obvious.

If you hold the microphone sufficiently close to your mouth you can often get what is called 'proximity effect' which is an acoustic boosting of the bass frequencies as it hits the diaphragm in the microphone. This translates down the audio-chain as bass with quite a high and hard attack (initial peak). With a sub boosting the lower frequencies you get very boomy-sounding speech.

As a rule of thumb, if you are doing speeches turn the sub off, you can leave the sub off for background music between speeches as sub frequencies at background volume are pointless.

Another rule of thumb is, if you have input EQ on your microphone roll the bass off pretty much completely, the mids and highs are what make you audible and understandable, the bass frequencies (below 100Hz) generally just detract from your clarity.

Interesting post, thanks.

[BeerFunk]

I don't know how much you know about the technical aspects of microphones and microphone technique, so excuse me if I'm stating the obvious.

If you hold the microphone sufficiently close to your mouth you can often get what is called 'proximity effect' which is an acoustic boosting of the bass frequencies as it hits the diaphragm in the microphone. This translates down the audio-chain as bass with quite a high and hard attack (initial peak). With a sub boosting the lower frequencies you get very boomy-sounding speech.

As a rule of thumb, if you are doing speeches turn the sub off, you can leave the sub off for background music between speeches as sub frequencies at background volume are pointless.

Another rule of thumb is, if you have input EQ on your microphone roll the bass off pretty much completely, the mids and highs are what make you audible and understandable, the bass frequencies (below 100Hz) generally just detract from your clarity.

Interesting post, thanks.
Seconded.

Although, as we all know, if you take the bass out of the microphone input, your voice doesn't sound very good! You may also have to up the volume to compensate, increasing the risk of squealing :(

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Seconded.

Although, as we all know, if you take the bass out of the microphone input, your voice doesn't sound very good! You may also have to up the volume to concentrate, increasing the risk of squealing :(

I agree.

I must admit, I do have a slight bit of bass on the mic, but not a lot.

Your voice does need to carry a bit sometimes.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Your voice does need to carry a bit sometimes.Yes - straight to the sound limiter's microphone! :eek: ;)

[Corabar Entertainment]

Just continuing the 'sound limiter' theme: we're going to meet a client this evening. She booked with us ages ago and after booking she found out that there was a sound limiter in the venue so she phoned us to ask what the implications were of this. I explained all the ins and outs of it and how it depends really on the levels set at the venue and how, in our experience, we can keep the music within the limits (whatever they are), but can't control people singing along, etc. She told us that the venue had advised her that the level was set at 19dB, and I said that she must have mis-heard, and that it would be 90dB. She went back to the venue and they kept insisting, no, it is 19dB!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

So she changed the venue as she decided that, whatever it is set at, they didn't know what they were doing! (PHEW!)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Just continuing the 'sound limiter' theme: we're going to meet a client this evening. She booked with us ages ago and after booking she found out that there was a sound limiter in the venue so she phoned us to ask what the implications were of this. I explained all the ins and outs of it and how it depends really on the levels set at the venue and how, in our experience, we can keep the music within the limits (whatever they are), but can't control people singing along, etc. She told us that the venue had advised her that the level was set at 19dB, and I said that she must have mis-heard, and that it would be 90dB. She went back to the venue and they kept insisting, no, it is 19dB!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

So she changed the venue as she decided that, whatever it is set at, they didn't know what they were doing! (PHEW!)

That can't possibly be right Ang.

Have a look at this chart - http://www.csun.edu/~vcoao0el/de361/de361s71_folder/loudnessChart.html

19db is people whispering :eek:

[Corabar Entertainment]

I know it's not right - which is what I kept telling her, but she decided as a result of the conversations that they obviously didn't know what they were doing at the venue and so she switched.

[colint]

You can't singe me I'm 50, fat, bald and I've got 10 screaming brats to take care of!

[PropellerHeadCase]

19dB would mean that whispering was too loud.



Seconded.

Although, as we all know, if you take the bass out of the microphone input, your voice doesn't sound very good! You may also have to up the volume to compensate, increasing the risk of squealing :(

I disagree there is nothing useful in the human voice below 100Hz except for some sub-harmonics which give timbre but not clarity.

[Jiggles]

hehehe you would sneeze and it would go off :lol:

[Corabar Steve]

You could fart & it would go off! :d

[wayne_uk]

If I farted most of the punters would go off

[Corabar Entertainment]

If I farted most of the punters would go off...or assume that something in the buffet had gone off!!!

[Jiggles]

You could fart & it would go off! :d

I hope that wasnt directed at me :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :D

[Corabar Steve]

If you farted it would probably blow up! :d

[Jiggles]

If you farted it would probably blow up! :d


OI!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Corabar Steve]

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick0017.gif

[aj.promotions]

i have worked a few times in a working mens club in sheffield where the concert room was booked out for an 18 th birthday the landlord (or steward)
was a pain in the but,but thats another story.
the time got to 9:15 and the committee man came to me and said i had to stop the disco for about 30 mins while the rest of the club played bingo in other rooms. i said they had paid for the room and paid me,the client wasnt happy they wasnt told this when they booked the room.we just had the buffet early.

[theoloyla]

i have worked a few times in a working mens club in sheffield where the concert room was booked out for an 18 th birthday the landlord (or steward)
was a pain in the but,but thats another story.
the time got to 9:15 and the committee man came to me and said i had to stop the disco for about 30 mins while the rest of the club played bingo in other rooms. i said they had paid for the room and paid me,the client wasnt happy they wasnt told this when they booked the room.we just had the buffet early.

I worked at a club like that a few times too. The committee seemed to think they were just one rung below the arch angel Gabriel!