PAT tests - not worth the paper they're written on

[rob1963]

Firstly, I've decided to continue taking an active stance on this forum, mainly due to some private messages I've received, so thanks to those concerned.

Ok - lets be controversial (or maybe you'll all agree with me!). In my opinion, PAT tests are not worth the paper they're written on.

The authorities always say you should never accept an MOT certificate as confirmation of a vehicle's condition.

The same applies to a PAT certificate. It only confirms the equipment's condition on the day of the test...which was probably many weeks or even months ago, and as we all know, just like a car, disco equipment can develop a fault at any time.

Having said this, all my equipment is PAT tested. Not so I know it's all electrically safe, but partly as an additional selling point & partly to avoid losing work, even though it's relevance on the night of the gig is nil.

More and more venues are asking to see the worthless piece of paper that is my PAT certificate, and yet I've NEVER been asked for my Public liability insurance certificate, which, in my opinion is WAY more important. Not only does it give complete peace of mind, but it has the same meaning every day of the year...not just on the day when it was issued.

As I might have said before.....it's a funny old world! :confused:

[axeman]

i agree to a certain extent, like an MOT the paperwork is reqd to prove you have at sometime recently been safety inspected. a DJs gear that has never been pat tested might be lethal for years....and years, until something happens.

[Shaun]

The fact that it's selling point, and that it get's me work over and beyond the DJ's that don't have PAT certification makes it worth the paper it's written on (even if it's for a different reason than what PAT's intended for). The PAT certificate is also peace of mind for the client, and if I maintain my equipment and look after it, it offers peace of mind for me that my equipment is pretty safe electrically. If I didn't get my gear tested anually I would never know if I had a potentially dangerous fault somewhere carrying on from one year to the next.

So is it worth the paper it's written on. For me, ABSOLUTELY :)

[rob1963]

I'll give you that one, Shaun...it's not worth the paper it's written on for it's INTENDED purpose!

[spin mobile disco]

I must admit as a trained electrical mechanical engineer I can maintain my system very well to make sure its safe etc. But without a bit of paper to say It was checked by someone else no one would hire me.
It is stupid I agree.
When my local tester came round to test I was as qualified to do it as he was, he just had a tester unit and headed paper to put the test report on.
I get asked for my insurance more than my pat round here though. But wouldnt dream of not having both. If only to continue getting work.

[CRAZY K]

Firstly, I've decided to continue taking an active stance on this forum, mainly due to some private messages I've received, so thanks to those concerned.

Ok - lets be controversial (or maybe you'll all agree with me!). In my opinion, PAT tests are not worth the paper they're written on.

The authorities always say you should never accept an MOT certificate as confirmation of a vehicle's condition.

The same applies to a PAT certificate. It only confirms the equipment's condition on the day of the test...which was probably many weeks or even months ago, and as we all know, just like a car, disco equipment can develop a fault at any time.

Having said this, all my equipment is PAT tested. Not so I know it's all electrically safe, but partly as an additional selling point & partly to avoid losing work, even though it's relevance on the night of the gig is nil.

More and more venues are asking to see the worthless piece of paper that is my PAT certificate, and yet I've NEVER been asked for my Public liability insurance certificate, which, in my opinion is WAY more important. Not only does it give complete peace of mind, but it has the same meaning every day of the year...not just on the day when it was issued.

As I might have said before.....it's a funny old world! :confused:

There are always advantages--I was about to buy a second hand mixer from a Disco shop just before the annual PAT on my gear.

I included this item for testing as well.

It was the only item that failed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The engineer said he had no idea why and neither did Carlsboro the manufacturer who they rang.

Its not only the safety aspect---the engineer said it could be the transformer on the way out:eek:

That would be just my luck---blows up and dies during the first dance at a Wedding.

It might seem a waste of money but im glad of it in these circumstances.

Probably saved me from---
letting someone down
£50 written off--( no guarantee)
Potential safety risk.

CRAZY K

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I think this subjects been done to death on a lot of forums already and the same arguements for and against will come up.

[PropellerHeadCase]

It comes down to due diligence. If there is a problem caused by the equipment then the venue can say that they acted appropriately by ensuring that the equipment was certificated. If they didn't and an equipment fault caused a problem, especially where PLI wasn't extant, then their insurance company would make them jump through hoops assuming they paid out at all.

Given that timely relevance would entail testing before every gig do you really want to open that can o' worms?

[mikeee]

I think this subjects been done to death on a lot of forums already and the same arguements for and against will come up. Absolutely, but, it is the responsibility of the authorised used of equipement to check it everytime it is used to ensure that it is safe, and still remains within the legal statute of the EAW Act 1989.

Like a car, you should check it everytime you use it, or once a week etc etc. the PAT is like an MOT, you are paying a professional to check it, the same as a client books you as a professional.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Absolutely, but, it is the responsibility of the authorised used of equipement to check it everytime it is used to ensure that it is safe, and still remains within the legal statute of the EAW Act 1989.

Like a car, you should check it everytime you use it, or once a week etc etc. the PAT is like an MOT, you are paying a professional to check it, the same as a client books you as a professional.

Yawn.....

We know Mikeee;)

[mikeee]

Well, we know this, but people keep asking. After 17 years i thought it would be clear!!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Well, we know this, but people keep asking. After 17 years i thought it would be clear!!

Lots of newcomers who obviously haven't spoken to you yet Mikeee ;)

[mikeee]

:D :D Most of the newcomers are doing it. It's some of the "old lags" I worry about:eek:

[Dazzy D]

You all seem to be a pretty clued-up bunch, especially you Mikee. I have a query which I hope someone could advise me on.

I recently bought a whole bunch of brand new kit all under guarantee. As it's under guarantee, it should be capable of performing, without faults, to it's specification. So, at what point should I get it PAT tested? Should I do it now or wait until the guarantee is coming to an end? My older kit is already sorted but I'm not sure where I stand with the new stuff. I've spoken to two PAT testing companies and, surprisingly, they gave me differing information on this matter. I know people keep likening PAT testing to MOT testing and, to be fair, you wouldn't go out and buy a brand new car only to have to go and fork out more for an MOT certificate, would you?

So, what would others do in this situation? It would be helpful, and interesting, to know.

PS. All my kit is insured under my policy with DJ Guard which seems to be excellent value for money.

[soundtracker]

This is a bit of an old chestnut as well! There have been several incidents where brand new equipment has failed PATests, recorded on the forums in the last 12 months or so. The usual problem has been the earth not connected at all, or attached to a tab that has been sprayed with paint and was not therefore making a connection. There is no real definitive answer for this, the same as how often should kit be tested, but as usual in all of these situations its a case of covering your backside as far as possible.

[spin mobile disco]

I was told by the compay that tests my gear that if the unit is under 1 year old it doesnt require one as by law it is tested in the factory the same way already.

[soundtracker]

WHAT LAW? There is no law regarding PATesting

[CRAZY K]

WHAT LAW? There is no law regarding PATesting

True but MAYBE there is a regulation that newly manufactured electrical equipment must be "suitable and safe for purpose" which means one requirement is that it has to go through a PAT test at the factory=even though you dont get a certificate with a new piece of kit.

Just guessing as my DJ shop always says I dont need PAT on new kit I buy from them for a year AND they could stitch me up by doing one and charging me for it.

Maybe its like buying a new car---no MOT for 3 years.

Spin any ideas as you suggested this?

CRAZY K

[soundtracker]

True but MAYBE there is a regulation that newly manufactured electrical equipment must be "suitable and safe for purpose" which means one requirement is that it has to go through a PAT test at the factory=even though you dont get a certificate with a new piece of kit.

Just guessing as my DJ shop always says I dont need PAT on new kit I buy from them for a year AND they could stitch me up by doing one and charging me for it.

Maybe its like buying a new car---no MOT for 3 years.

Spin any ideas as you suggested this?

CRAZY K
If that was the case we wouldn't be getting new kit failing!

[soundmaster mobile disco]

I think pat testing and pli insurance is a great thing that swings work in a djs way.After all there are more and more clients asking the question do you have a pat certificate?
dou you have pli?.
The whole idea of this is it sorts out the good genuine guys (me) from the cowboys who i think give us dj entertainers a bad name throuhg no fault of our own.

[soundtracker]

Just spoken to my PATesting guy who lectures at the local college and trains PAT testers and he confirms there is no such law/regulation, and that ALL kit should be PAtested regardless of age.

[CRAZY K]

Just spoken to my PATesting guy who lectures at the local college and trains PAT testers and he confirms there is no such law/regulation, and that ALL kit should be PAtested regardless of age.

Fine, next time I speak to my DJ shop will ask them why my new kit I buy from them doesnt need testing for a year ( according to them! )

CRAZY K

[ross@rds]

I think pat testing and pli insurance is a great thing that swings work in a djs way.After all there are more and more clients asking the question do you have a pat certificate?
dou you have pli?.
The whole idea of this is it sorts out the good genuine guys (me) from the cowboys who i think give us dj entertainers a bad name throuhg no fault of our own.


I have only had around 10 people ask if i have it. I always tell the client before they book me or even if they just want a price always said i'm pil and pat and they always book me after that so it good to have it. Also all councils ask for it and if you do one vent for them and do it well you will be doing all they. I have 2 big contracts with 2 local councils at the moment they bring alot of work my way.

[Dragonfly]

Round me I would guess I can count on one hand the times Ive been asked for it :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: but I always take copies and present them at new venues. I think it looks professional an who knows may make one or two think just who they are letting through their doors?

[sleah]

I think it can be summed up..... it's what sorts the complete plonkers from the professionals:D :D

[CRAZY K]

Round me I would guess I can count on one hand the times Ive been asked for it :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: but I always take copies and present them at new venues. I think it looks professional an who knows may make one or two think just who they are letting through their doors?

Well said that Dragon:D

CRAZY K

[theoloyla]

I think the original title of the thread is silly and inflamatory and I would expect better of your Rob (unless you were trying to be deliberately controversial to announce that you are still active on the forum). Oc ourse PAT testing is worth the money but like the MOT on our vans it is only a back stop to help keep unroadworthy vehicles off the road. As for how often you need to produce PAT and PLI certificates - how often do you have to produce MOT and insurance on your van? Only if there is an accident or occasionally by the authorities (not every time you drive it). Finally as regards new equipment it is indeed possible to purchase a new piece of equipment that is faulty just as it is possible to buy a new van which is faulty but it is unlikely and I am sure that the law would regard it as unreasonable to expect us to test new equipment.

[rob1963]

I think the original title of the thread is silly and inflamatory and I would expect better of your Rob (unless you were trying to be deliberately controversial to announce that you are still active on the forum). Of course PAT testing is worth the money

Finally as regards new equipment it is indeed possible to purchase a new piece of equipment that is faulty just as it is possible to buy a new van which is faulty but it is unlikely and I am sure that the law would regard it as unreasonable to expect us to test new equipment.


Theo,

You are fully entitled to think the original title of the thread is silly and inflamatory, although nobody else has replied saying THEY think this.

When you say you would expect better of me, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean I shouldn't have that opinion? do you mean I should have the same opinion as you? or do you mean I shouldn't post my honest opinions here?

I stand by what I said. It is my honest opinion, and was intended to get feedback, opinions & discussion from other members, which is what I thought this forum was all about, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't say PAT testing is NOT worth the money.

The point I was trying to make is that PAT certificates are not worth the paper they're written on in relation to their INTENDED purpose. In other words, if my gear was tested 6 months ago, it could have easily developed a fault since then. Therefore, there will be DJs out there with faulty or dangerous equipment. Some will not have PAT certificates, but it's a fact that some WILL.

I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion, as it's been stated that this topic has been done to death on forums recently, with the same arguments coming up for AND against!

The second point I was making (which wasn't really picked up on) is that more & more venues are asking to see my PAT certificate, and yet NOBODY has ever asked to see my Public Liability Insurance, which in my opinion is MUCH more important & relevant.

Finally, with all due respect, I need to correct you on something. You say you are sure that the law would regard it as unreasonable to expect us to test new equipment. According to a previous reply this is incorrect, as someone has been told by their PAT tester that ALL equipment needs testing...regardless of whether it is new or not.

[Ricesnaps]

This really is an old cherry isn't it. Quite a pasionate subject Rob and you may not be fully aware the background this particular issue has had, certainly on this forum. There are links to a PAT validator and a PLI validator site, which I am sure you are fully aware of. It's certainly my understanding that the founding member of this site wanted to use PAT and PLI as a tool to better our industry. That may explain why some are very clear on this issue!

For want of bring everything back up again from the distant past, it needs to be made very clear that the realy issue is Health & Safety and particularly electrical safety. The PAT test is simply the public face of our responsibilities as entertainers. Like it or not, there isn't anything else that is quite so well known with which we can demonstrate our compliance to a worthy H&S system. However if you choose to do nothing at all other than pay for a test once a year, yes, you probably are wasting your time and money. But because the obligation you have is to maintain safe and legal equipment. What we REALLY should be banging home now is the commitment to regularly maintained equipment, helping each other AND the public understand the responsibily that comes with mobile equipment. How many of us go through our leads routinely and repair or check the wiring (and honestly, how many do that say once a month?), how many of us open up our effects lighting and hoover out the dust and polish the reflectors and lenses? Then maybe stop and think about how safe your non-electrical gear is....

Maybe we need to have a self regulating certification for routine maintanance - which I have a feeling is already called risk assessment!

Oh and Rob, you asked why you only ever get asked for your PAT information? I would guess because your PLI will financially protect YOU if there is a problem. At the end of the day, if your gear hurts somebody, the venue won't get the bill, you will, so why should they be worried? I guess it's the client who needs to check the PLI

[rob1963]

Hiya Ricesnaps,

You are right, I'm not aware of the background this subject has had in this forum, as I only joined last month.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, and thanks for the info, which has been taken on board :)

[theoloyla]

Theo,

You are fully entitled to think the original title of the thread is silly and inflamatory, although nobody else has replied saying THEY think this.

When you say you would expect better of me, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean I shouldn't have that opinion? do you mean I should have the same opinion as you? or do you mean I shouldn't post my honest opinions here?

I stand by what I said. It is my honest opinion, and was intended to get feedback, opinions & discussion from other members, which is what I thought this forum was all about, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't say PAT testing is NOT worth the money.

The point I was trying to make is that PAT certificates are not worth the paper they're written on in relation to their INTENDED purpose. In other words, if my gear was tested 6 months ago, it could have easily developed a fault since then. Therefore, there will be DJs out there with faulty or dangerous equipment. Some will not have PAT certificates, but it's a fact that some WILL.

I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion, as it's been stated that this topic has been done to death on forums recently, with the same arguments coming up for AND against!

The second point I was making (which wasn't really picked up on) is that more & more venues are asking to see my PAT certificate, and yet NOBODY has ever asked to see my Public Liability Insurance, which in my opinion is MUCH more important & relevant.

Finally, with all due respect, I need to correct you on something. You say you are sure that the law would regard it as unreasonable to expect us to test new equipment. According to a previous reply this is incorrect, as someone has been told by their PAT tester that ALL equipment needs testing...regardless of whether it is new or not.
Calm down Rob. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and this is the place to air it and of course I dont expect everyone to agree with me all the time on every subject. Dont be so touchy.
I have been asked to provide proof of PLI by SEDA (it is a condition of membership) and Beejay Ents Agency (it is a condition of working for them) but other than that no one has ever asked to see it - although I do tell people that I have it - I guess they accept my word or arent bothered.
On the subject of testing new gear as Ricesnaps says there is no written down right and wrong and if you asked a professional PAT tester I am sure that he would want twice as many checks twice as often - its to his advantage.

[Have a disco]

Dear Rob I whole heartedly agree with you

UNTIL Pat testing is MADE LAW to be done yearly then whom is to say when it should be done say every week, month year or even every say 2 / 5 years The playing field needs to be finalised for once and for all

Prehaps we should be forming meetings with MP's the idustry as a whole to make it statutory even part of your requirement to get PLI and it prosecuteable if you do not have it done. I currently feel every year is unecessary due to the lack of bookings I have in a year does not validate it need doing yearly every 2 years is fine and I can test my own gear regularly but could even run up my own certificates. as time goes on and bookings build I will do it yearly but as no one around here even asks for PAT nor PLI certificates it seems pointless....

Please note guys Im not irriesponsible but something needs doing for once and for all MAKE IT A LAW - MAKE IT HAPPEN via our voices

[rob1963]

Calm down Rob. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and this is the place to air it and of course I dont expect everyone to agree with me all the time on every subject. Dont be so touchy.



Theo,

Not everyone will be calm if you say to them "I would expect better of you" without explaining what you mean...particularly if they ASK what you mean, and you STILL don't tell them! I guess I'll never know.

I'm nice and calm now though...probably due to the :beer1: I just found in the fridge. :D :D :D

[CRAZY K]

If that was the case we wouldn't be getting new kit failing!

Heres my update. ( resting between bouts of house decorating :eek: )

According to my Disco shop its all about CE marks.

I did suggest that there might be some legislation( EU) that made the issue of electrical equipment from a factory subject to a "quality and safety" standard. Allegedly I was right!

Yes I know new equipment fails and in theory you should immediately PAT test every new item.

The CE mark which you will see on the back of equipment( its on the back of my Cortex and even on my original Peavey Speaker Cardboard box and also my peavey Mixer Amp which was made in the USA ) is described below from a definition found on the net.

My Disco shop say whilst the factory dont carry out a PAT test with certificate--- it is bench tested---probably to a higher standard to check its safe. Yes I know items can be on the shelf for a year.

Alllegedly every electrical item we buy in Europe MUST have a CE mark or code, anyway heres the technical stuff---------------

The CE mark (officially CE marking) is a mandatory safety mark on many products placed on the single market in the European Economic Area (EEA). The term initially used was "EC Mark" and it was officially replaced by "CE Marking" in the Directive 93/68/EEC in 1993. "CE Marking" is now used in all EU official documents. "CE Mark" is also in use, but it is not the official term.

By affixing the CE marking, the manufacturer, or its representative, or the importer assures that the item meets all the essential requirements of all applicable EU directives. Examples of European Directives requiring CE marking include toy safety, machinery, low-voltage equipment, R&TTE, and EM compatibility. There are about 25 Directives requiring CE marking. A list can be found at [1].

Officially, CE has no meaning as an abbreviation, but may have originally stood for Communauté Européenne or Conformité Européenne, French for European Conformity.

The CE mark is a mandatory European marking for certain product groups to indicate conformity with the essential health and safety requirements set out in European Directives. To permit the use of a CE mark on a product, proof that the item meets the relevant requirements must be documented. Sometimes this is achieved using an external test house which evaluates the product and its documentation. Often it is achieved by a company-internal self-certification process. In any case the responsible organization (manufacturer, representative, importer) has to issue a EC-Declaration of Conformity (EC-DoC) indicating his identity (location, etc.), the list of European Directives he declares compliance with, a list of standards the product complies with, and a legally binding signature on behalf of the organization. The EC-DoC underlines the sole responsibility of the manufacturer. The CE marking could be licensed from 3rd party test houses / certification bodies; in that case the CE symbol also includes a number that identifies the 3rd party body.

Directives providing the requirements for the CE mark are created by the European Union (EU), but the markings are required throughout the European Economic Area (EEA), which also includes the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) members Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein, and in Turkey, which is not a part of the EU or the EFTA. (Switzerland is the only nation that is part of the EFTA (or the EU), but not the EEA. According to information provided by the Swiss Government for Swiss Exporters the CE Mark is not compulsory in Switzerland except for products for export to the European Union.)

The mark was designed by Arthur Eisenmenger.[2]

CRAZY K

[soundtracker]

This thread is bouncing backwards and forwards, covering ground that's been trod a million times, and just causing arguments. If you need info on PATesting do a search.