What tricks of the trade do you use?

[rob1963]

I'm just wondering what tricks of the trade you use to get more bookings, better quality bookings or more money for your bookings.

I use a simple trick to get more people to book my deluxe disco rather than the standard one. My website states that the standard disco is suitable for 30-70 people, and the deluxe version is suitable for 70-150 people.

Most functions (especially weddings) have more than 70 guests, so the idea is that when people see my website, they decide the deluxe disco is the most suitable for them, so that's the one they book. This works well, as about 75% of my clients book the deluxe disco.

A friend uses a different trick, and phones clients who have booked his standard disco a couple of weeks before their function. He tells them that the deluxe disco has become available on that night, and although it's normally £100 extra, he's prepared to upgrade them for only £50. They often accept his offer, netting him an extra £50.

I appreciate that some of you won't want to share your tricks, so maybe this thread won't get any replies, but I hope that's not the case! :)

[Jiggles]

I gibe then the fake discount offer as most business use! Tell them the disco is £120 and then you say that you are feeling generous today and say that you will knock off £20, but in fact your disco is really meant to be £100 :D:D get my drift? :D

[rob1963]

I gibe then the fake discount offer as most business use! Tell them the disco is £120 and then you say that you are feeling generous today and say that you will knock off £20, but in fact your disco is really meant to be £100 :D:D get my drift? :D

I can't do that, CB...as I have set prices which are on my website!

[Jiggles]

I can't do that, CB...as I have set prices which are on my website!


Thats put that flying out of the window :D:D:D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Personally I don't use tricks.

I listen to clients needs and expectations and then tell them what we can do for them and the prices.

I never have and never will sell on size of equipment or size of show.

[rob1963]

I never have and never will sell on size of equipment or size of show.


I'm glad to hear that, Darren...because it's not size that's important ;)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I'm glad to hear that, Darren...because it's not size that's important ;)

You learn that as you get older, eh Rob? :p

[rob1963]

Absolutely, Darren! :lol:

[Candybeatdiscos]

Yeah i am with Darren on this one, at the end of the day we are trying to be a successful but honest business, and mobile DJ's already have a bad reputation, so why give the ones out there who have it in for us substance?

At the end of the day my service costs what it does, no gimmicks, no tricks. As they say you get what you pay for, if you buy a jumper from poundstreatchers then don't expect it to last as long as one bought from Marks & Spencers...(I am in the marks & Spencers bracket, ie you hire a £100 DJ, dont exzpect him to be quality or possibly legal, however hire me and well you get both....)

[flatliners]

how can u say that a 100 pound dj might not be any good i go out for anything from 100 to 150 + and i have 6 irock hid effects 1500w strobe 100mw duel green laser 100w smoke 2 jbl eon15g2 and a 600w powered sub bass bin and can add 2 chauvet technoscan r 250w discharge scanners 4 gobo moonflowers 2 chauvet explorers 4 smart moons 4 250 watt speakers
and i would say i am a top class dj
would u class me as poundstrecher

[DMX Will]

how can u say that a 100 pound dj might not be any good i go out for anything from 100 to 150 + and i have 6 irock hid effects 1500w strobe 100mw duel green laser 100w smoke 2 jbl eon15g2 and a 600w powered sub bass bin and can add 2 chauvet technoscan r 250w discharge scanners 4 gobo moonflowers 2 chauvet explorers 4 smart moons 4 250 watt speakers
and i would say i am a top class dj
would u class me as poundstrecher

Unless your using a rig full of macs, your price shouldn't really be based upon your equipment, nor should you consider yourself a top DJ because of your equipment. Its about your DJing SKILL.

[rob1963]

Darren & Lewnics,

To clarify what I meant by tricks of the trade, I was referring to best practices or things you do to to maximize business & income...but NOT dishonest or illegal practices.

I'm sure all businesses have tricks of the trade, and I was interested to know which (legitimate) ones are used in our industry.

I see nothing wrong with my friend calling clients a couple of weeks before their function to offer an upgrade at a reduced rate.

I also see no problem with gearing my deluxe disco to functions for 70-150 people (which is the vast majority of them) in order to maximize my income.

The most important thing for ME is to give all clients a professional & efficient service which fully meets their requirements AND at competitive rates...regardless of how much they have paid.

[flatliners]

i wasnt meaning to be ohhh look at me with all my gear i was just saying i could take that lot out.
the equipment i have well the new stuff i got it because i wanted it as i love lighting effects.
i once saw a dj who had an average sound system two screens 4 banks of pulsar tri spots and he used records and had two walkman cd players
at the end of the night i went up and told the dj i had a geat night mind you he had people dancing on the tables it was the best night i have been to where there has been another dj there he was getting paid 150 pounds then and that was about 8 years ago
sadly he is no longer with us and is good mates good mates with the legend john peel if you know what i mean
so its not about the equipment but the dj

[Ricesnaps]

Darren & Lewnics,

To clarify what I meant by tricks of the trade, I was referring to best practices or things you do to to maximize business & income...but NOT dishonest or illegal practices.

The most important thing for ME is to give all clients a professional & efficient service which fully meets their requirements AND at competitive rates.

The top bit: following my "next level" thread, the answer is simply to believe in what you are worth. No tricks needed or I think should ever be needed. By pushing a bigger show because of number of people you are simply selling a bigger show yet the DJ remains the same. Consider being able to charge the bigger show money for the smaller show? How? Because what you are actually selling is the service, not the gear! What are you and your tallents worth, that's the only trick to sell!

Bottom bit: "AND a competitive rate"... is the loss leader I think. Over and over we hear people get upset because they believe they can't charge any more than £x because that's what the others do. Why try to be competative when it's possible to earn what you are worth?

[rob1963]

The top bit: following my "next level" thread, the answer is simply to believe in what you are worth. No tricks needed or I think should ever be needed. By pushing a bigger show because of number of people you are simply selling a bigger show yet the DJ remains the same. Consider being able to charge the bigger show money for the smaller show? How? Because what you are actually selling is the service, not the gear! What are you and your tallents worth, that's the only trick to sell!

Bottom bit: "AND a competitive rate"... is the loss leader I think. Over and over we hear people get upset because they believe they can't charge any more than £x because that's what the others do. Why try to be competative when it's possible to earn what you are worth?

Hiya Ricesnaps,

You & Darren picked up on the fact that no tricks are needed, and I agree. I was referring to tricks of the trade, but maybe this was misleading. I should have probably used the phrase "best practices" instead, as the word "tricks" tends to conjure up ideas of underhand pratices, which is NOT what I was referring to.

To say I'm pushing a bigger show because of the number of people & the DJ remains the same is not quite true, as my deluxe disco also includes full black tie attire rather than just the shirt & tie offered with my standard disco.

I agree that we are largely selling OURSELF rather than the gear, although I'm sure you accept that the gear comes into it as well...otherwise everyone would be charging the same for a small sound system with one moonflower for 40 people as they charge for a large high power system with the latest dmx lighting, moving heads & the works for 400 or 500 people.

Although we are largely selling OURSELF, it's a fact that a larger show will look more impressive, involve more gear & take us longer to set up, and that's why we charge more for it...even though the DJ is more or less the same.

On your final point, competitive for me means competitive, but not cheap. I'm sure most clients would prefer a service that's professional, efficient and competitive rather than a service that's just professional and efficient.

I have a friend of a similar age who charges £75 less than me, and another who charges £75 more. I've never adopted the attitude "What's the most I can get away with charging?" but I DO adopt the attitude "Bearing in mind my skill, experience & the service I offer, what can I charge which represents very good value for money?" I'm not suggesting everyone should think this way, it's just the way I choose to run MY business. :)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

To say I'm pushing a bigger show because of the number of people & the DJ remains the same is not quite true, as my deluxe disco also includes full black tie attire rather than just the shirt & tie offered with my standard disco.



Surely you're not saying that wearing black tie rather than shirt and tie is an added bonus for your client?

I would have thought that venue dependant, things like that should be included anyway.



I agree that we are largely selling OURSELF rather than the gear, although I'm sure you accept that the gear comes into it as well...otherwise everyone would be charging the same for a small sound system with one moonflower for 40 people as they charge for a large high power system with the latest dmx lighting, moving heads & the works for 400 or 500 people.

I did a function a couple of weeks ago and used 2 par cans and a Martin EFX500 and charged the same (in fact more as I had to travel 20 miles!) as I would for a show with moving heads and a 2K system.

I know what you are saying Rob, but it's not always necessarily true.

[Ricesnaps]

To say I'm pushing a bigger show because of the number of people & the DJ remains the same is not quite true, as my deluxe disco also includes full black tie attire rather than just the shirt & tie offered with my standard disco.

You styarted this thread to ask for "tricks of the trade" or "best practices". So here's an idea - wear black tie for all of your bookings?


I agree that we are largely selling OURSELF rather than the gear, although I'm sure you accept that the gear comes into it as well...otherwise everyone would be charging the same for a small sound system with one moonflower for 40 people as they charge for a large high power system with the latest dmx lighting, moving heads & the works for 400 or 500 people.

Although we are largely selling OURSELF, it's a fact that a larger show will look more impressive, involve more gear & take us longer to set up, and that's why we charge more for it...even though the DJ is more or less the same.
Here's a shocker for you rob, a little top "trade secret". Believe it or not, your gear has almost absolutley nothing to do with your price. It's taken me years to get my head round this and I am absolutely certain you will completely dissagree (your loss at the end of the day), but a DJ with two twisters can provide a much much better service to his clients and charge twice what you do. It is absolutely NOT about the gear.


Although we are largely selling OURSELF, it's a fact that a larger show will look more impressive, involve more gear & take us longer to set up, and that's why we charge more for it...even though the DJ is more or less the same.
I think it's far more of a fact that a big show will NOT look more impressive to a client. The money comes from the clients who really want great entertainment, not over the top shows.

The key here is to recognise that lighting and DMX etc.. is nothing more than an obsesion for big kid DJ's (and I am 100% one of them). Then you'll be heading in the right direction

[BeerFunk]

For an extra £10, I put on some cologne :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

For an extra £10, I put on some cologne :D

And have a shower? :D

[BeerFunk]

And have a shower? :D
A shower is included in the standard price :)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The key here is to recognise that lighting and DMX etc.. is nothing more than an obsesion for big kid DJ's (and I am 100% one of them). Then you'll be heading in the right direction

Although I agree with most of what you are saying Rice, there are a few points I'd like to make.

Firstly, there is a certain standard of equipment. When you have that certain standard of clarity and looks, people will not notice your gear. It's only when the gear is poorly presented or not big enough for the job that people will notice.

Also, there are different markets here too. If, for example you are working for a large London agent, then most will expect higher end gear and a certain look.

As far as DMXing is concerned, again, there are markets for it. I know DJs from other forums who match colours of lighting with the theme of the wedding and venue. Also, carefully programmed DMX can work wonders for first dances or spotlight dances. So I don't think it is just boys and their toys completely.

[Ricesnaps]

Although I agree with most of what you are saying Rice, there are a few points I'd like to make.

Firstly, there is a certain standard of equipment. When you have that certain standard of clarity and looks, people will not notice your gear. It's only when the gear is poorly presented or not big enough for the job that people will notice.

Also, there are different markets here too. If, for example you are working for a large London agent, then most will expect higher end gear and a certain look.

As far as DMXing is concerned, again, there are markets for it. I know DJs from other forums who match colours of lighting with the theme of the wedding and venue. Also, carefully programmed DMX can work wonders for first dances or spotlight dances. So I don't think it is just boys and their toys completely.
100% with you, but I think that goes without saying when you get to that level or are looking at trying to achieve that level. The point I think I was trying to get accross was in reference to the original post which was suggesting that the key to a better price was a bigger better rig or selling a bigger show on the basis of number of guests.. That quite simply is not the answer.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

100% with you, but I think that goes without saying when you get to that level or are looking at trying to achieve that level.

Agreed.


The point I think I was trying to get accross was in reference to the original post which was suggesting that the key to a better price was a bigger better rig or selling a bigger show on the basis of number of guests.. That quite simply is not the answer.

Unless you go over a certain number of guests and you have to use a bigger rig.

[rob1963]

Surely you're not saying that wearing black tie rather than shirt and tie is an added bonus for your client?

I would have thought that venue dependant, things like that should be included anyway.




Darren,

I'm saying that wearing black tie is more formal & smarter than just a shirt & tie, and although it doesn't make a massive difference, its one of the extras I choose to offer as part of my deluxe show. I also know a few other DJs who do the same.

As far as things like that being included anyway, I already include more things than the majority of MDD forum members seem to: I offer a standard disco & a deluxe disco, and have set prices for all discos of up to 5 hours with an evening set up in Surrey. That way, it's nice & simple & clients can see the prices on my website.

I personally would NEVER give a different quote to everyone - depending on how many miles I have to drive, how near I can park to the door, what floor the function is on, etc etc...although it seems that many DJs DO. I just like to keep things as simple as possible.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Darren,

I'm saying that wearing black tie is more formal & smarter than just a shirt & tie, and although it doesn't make a massive difference, its one of the extras I choose to offer as part of my deluxe show. I also know a few other DJs who do the same.




I agree Rob, and for nearly all our weddings and dinner/dances, our DJs wear it.

I just don't see how you can offer it as an extra?

An extra is just that surely - another service, or more time, or an afternoon set up etc

[rob1963]

You started this thread to ask for "tricks of the trade" or "best practices". So here's an idea - wear black tie for all of your bookings?

Here's a shocker for you rob, a little top "trade secret". Believe it or not, your gear has almost absolutley nothing to do with your price. It's taken me years to get my head round this and I am absolutely certain you will completely dissagree (your loss at the end of the day), but a DJ with two twisters can provide a much much better service to his clients and charge twice what you do. It is absolutely NOT about the gear.




Ricesnaps,

Thanks for your suggestion of wearing black tie for all my functions. It's something I will certainly consider.

Is you suspected, I disagree that "your gear has almost absolutely nothing to do with your price" I have a couple of friends who are DJs. They sometimes do gigs in large venues for 400-500 people (especially xmas parties) where the clients request a larger & more powerful set up.

They take along lots of extra gear which they wouldn't usually use - such as additional speakers, amps, moving heads, lasers etc...and I know for a fact that they charge at LEAST £100-£150 extra for these larger discos, so, with all due respect, to say that your gear has almost absolutely nothing to do with your price is simply untrue...but I'd agree with you if my friends were only getting an extra £5 or £10 for these larger shows. I do agree that it's LARGELY ourselves that we are selling, but, with the DJs I know, it's clear that the amount of equipment DOES make more difference to the price than you suggest...or maybe it's just different in this area to where you are.

Like I said, we'll just have to accept that we have different opinions on this one, but let's face it - thats GOOD...because if everyone here agreed with everyone else, it would be a pretty boring forum! :)


I agree Rob, and for nearly all our weddings and dinner/dances, our DJs wear it.

I just don't see how you can offer it as an extra?

An extra is just that surely - another service, or more time, or an afternoon set up etc


Darren,

To me, an "extra" is anything which is not included as part of the standard package.

My website states that the standard disco includes a smart DJ, and the deluxe option includes a black tie DJ, but it's not something I'd split hairs over...so if a client booked the standard disco & wanted me in black tie, then I'd wear it (without charging extra!).

This has never been mentioned by a client before, but the vast majority of my bookings are for the deluxe disco...so they get black tie anyway.

So, back on topic...best practices?

[djswirl]

I have just scanned through this thread and thought I would put my 10 cent in. I have been DJing for 20 years, 15 of them pro and here is what I have learnt.

• Always wear Black Tie, unless the client says they don’t want it
• Always send out a contract for you and the client to sign
• Never tell the client you are better than another DJ
• Give the client free advice, eg if they don’t wish to book you advise them always to get a contact off whom ever they book.
• Never tell them how big your EQ is, they don’t understand. Remember they are booking you to do a job they can’t, so you should be telling them “For this venue you need this sound system, you need these light to create a great effect”


The biggest trick is to make them believe you know want THEY want and YOU CAN supply it.

It has nothing to do with EQ, the average show I take out has 2 x Art300 speakers + Mixer / CD player, 2 x twister type things, 1 mirror ball and a deck stand with star cloth front and over head, and for this I get on arrearage £450

Most clients don’t understand what all these lights are or know how many are needed for their venue. Most of the client and venues I work at don’t want big shows, and I find I have seen a lot of DJs put in far to much stuff.
Yes we ALL like to talk it up, get our toys out, meet with other DJ and show off how big our speakers are, you can’t be a DJ without it (it’s the law you know, honest gov!) but why create yourself extra work setting up a big show for extra money when you can get good money for selling YOURSELF and not the EQ.

But (here it comes) once you have sold yourself for good money and the client now trusts you to do the right thing for them, then you make a suggestion “in my experience if you wanted to give your guests a little extra WOW factor I would suggest having X, and we can supply this for you at only Y”
Now you have got very good money for the disco, and extra money for X = one happy DJ :)

PS Never sell a package, sell a solution to the clients requirements

Brian

[DK Karaoke]

I have just scanned through this thread and thought I would put my 10 cent in. I have been DJing for 20 years, 15 of them pro and here is what I have learnt.

• Always wear Black Tie, unless the client says they don’t want it
• Always send out a contract for you and the client to sign
• Never tell the client you are better than another DJ
• Give the client free advice, eg if they don’t wish to book you advise them always to get a contact off whom ever they book.
• Never tell them how big your EQ is, they don’t understand. Remember they are booking you to do a job they can’t, so you should be telling them “For this venue you need this sound system, you need these light to create a great effect”


The biggest trick is to make them believe you know want THEY want and YOU CAN supply it.

Wise words there Brian, and agree with most.


It has nothing to do with EQ,

Disagree with this one, as I did with Ricesnaps comments about gear. Agree its about the abilities of the DJ, however, even a good DJ cannot deliver a 'disco' or even a 'karaoke/disco' without the gear, and it has to be up to the job, that is good gear (in my opinion) At the end of the day, as you said the client wants entertainment, in the form of a 'disco' if they booked a disco that is, and not just a DJ.

The other point is that unless the gear is up to the job, the client wont be happy either, by this I mean - if the amp or speakers are not up to the job, then they cant hear the music properly, etc. etc. likewise, if the DJ does not have the music the client wants to hear, then trouble also. After all if a DJ turned up with say a hi fi and a few home made discs, then there would be a lot of unhappy people I'd say. As you said they want what they ordered, entertainment, in a form which although they might specify in the booking contract - music type etc., they still cannot get across their full expectations. I remember seeing a post on this forum once about a client that sent something like a 20 or 30 page list of requirements etc.


Most clients don’t understand what all these lights are or know how many are needed for their venue.

Agreed with this one, however, at the end of the day, they just want plenty of disco lights, like the ones they associate with from the many clubs they visit on a Friday/Saturday night. Its hard to match these lights on a mobile set-up, but can be done, if you bring all the 'Gear'.


why create yourself extra work setting up a big show for extra money when you can get good money for selling YOURSELF and not the EQ.

Agree and disagree here, 1st, no one wants to create extra work, however, as with my comments above you may need the extra gear, and you are not just selling yourself. As I said the client wants entertainment, if it was just you or me, they would not hire a DJ/disco, but a solo artist, you get my drift.


if you wanted to give your guests a little extra WOW factor I would suggest having X, and we can supply this for you at only Y”
Now you have got very good money for the disco, and extra money for X = one happy DJ :)

Agree with this, but it has to be good extra Wow factor,


PS Never sell a package, sell a solution to the clients requirements

Totally agree with this one

Martyn

[Ricesnaps]

Ricesnaps,

Is you suspected, I disagree that "your gear has almost absolutely nothing to do with your price" I have a couple of friends who are DJs. They sometimes do gigs in large venues for 400-500 people (especially xmas parties) where the clients request a larger & more powerful set up.

They take along lots of extra gear which they wouldn't usually use - such as additional speakers, amps, moving heads, lasers etc...and I know for a fact that they charge at LEAST £100-£150 extra for these larger discos, so, with all due respect, to say that your gear has almost absolutely nothing to do with your price is simply untrue...but I'd agree with you if my friends were only getting an extra £5 or £10 for these larger shows. I do agree that it's LARGELY ourselves that we are selling, but, with the DJs I know, it's clear that the amount of equipment DOES make more difference to the price than you suggest...or maybe it's just different in this area to where you are.

Rob,

Please don't think this is simply a dissagreement or differing opinions. I think the bottom line here is a simple as having faith in yourself and being able to believe that. Trust me I am nowhere near yet, but I have managed to overcome the fist hurdle and I at least believe what I need to do. Actually doing it is somewhat more difficult.

Don't get me confused here, doing a disco in a small pub and one in a sports centre hall will of course require a louder PA and maybe brighter lighting, just in the same way a transit van would be no use delivering to a supermarket every day with the bread order. But the trick here (back to original post) it to at the very least, understand that it is not and never will be the "extra" you offer that makes you earn more money.

When you get to a level in this industry I believe there are a few things that MUST be taken as read for us to be professionals:

1. We only use professional gear
2. We provide a neat and tidy looking show
3. The equipment being used is appropriate to the event

The key and hard thing to do is to try to stop selling your equipment to clients. Unless you have something very very specific which is going make all the difference - for example I get asked to provide just white lighting for wedding first dances sometimes, or asked not to use strobes. Saying that you can have this size sound rig for 80 people or this one for 150 people, or that you can have the big show if you have more people is directly selling your equipment to the client and not your service. What's wrong with having one price and one show? If you feel that the equipment might not handle events over 300 guests, then make that clear or suggest that you need to provide a personal quote for over that number.

The problem with equipment based pricing is that your client can simply pick up the phone and call Mr x down the road and ask how much for... when this is actually not about being cheap, its about being good.

Please argue as much as you like about equipment based pricing, but I am not dissagreeing with you, simply trying to help you understand that this is never going to be the way to get better and earn better money.

[wensleydale]

i disagree with a few things here, although it seems to be going off topic.

with regard to gear, i always treat each event individually and find out what is needed before suggesting a package and a price- therefore I don't have "package prices" and quote for each job based on the hours and needs of client.

secondly, i still disagree with the "dinner jacket is normal unless told so"

if i turned up to each event in a dinner jacket not only would i be the only one wearing one, i would be completely out of place at most of them.
i've nothing against people wearing them if they like them, but I really don't think its as bigger deal as people think- so much so that in 15 years I've never been asked to wear one when I have queried it- even when the guests are wearing them people don't necesarilly expect a dj to wear one.

i'm going to get shouted down for being a youth who doesn't know his place, but I think they are a little dated nowadays. however i did buy a cool one with flared trousers so if anyone wants we to wear it i am itching to dig it out- it looks the business.

[PropellerHeadCase]

Disagree with this one, as I did with Ricesnaps comments about gear. Agree its about the abilities of the DJ, however, even a good DJ cannot deliver a 'disco' or even a 'karaoke/disco' without the gear, and it has to be up to the job, that is good gear (in my opinion) At the end of the day, as you said the client wants entertainment, in the form of a 'disco' if they booked a disco that is, and not just a DJ.

Very true, but the point is that most punters will not know whether the equipment is up to the job, especially if all they have to go on is a bunch of specs with Watts, milliWatts and moving heads :confused:

Even if you set up two systems in a hall and played from each separately most people couldn't detect the difference unless one is drastically underpowered as compared to the other.



The other point is that unless the gear is up to the job, the client wont be happy either, by this I mean - if the amp or speakers are not up to the job, then they cant hear the music properly, etc. etc. likewise, if the DJ does not have the music the client wants to hear, then trouble also. After all if a DJ turned up with say a hi fi and a few home made discs, then there would be a lot of unhappy people I'd say. As you said they want what they ordered, entertainment, in a form which although they might specify in the booking contract - music type etc., they still cannot get across their full expectations. I remember seeing a post on this forum once about a client that sent something like a 20 or 30 page list of requirements etc.

Yeah, but they won't that the gear wasn't up to the job until after the fact and they still won't know how many more Watts or millWatts they needed.



Agreed with this one, however, at the end of the day, they just want plenty of disco lights, like the ones they associate with from the many clubs they visit on a Friday/Saturday night. Its hard to match these lights on a mobile set-up, but can be done, if you bring all the 'Gear'.

Then again, I find that it's usually a question of having enough lights to liven up the dancefloor but not so many as to put off the older guests.



Agree and disagree here, 1st, no one wants to create extra work, however, as with my comments above you may need the extra gear, and you are not just selling yourself. As I said the client wants entertainment, if it was just you or me, they would not hire a DJ/disco, but a solo artist, you get my drift.

But after you get past the price-fixated people most will be sold on your professionalism and how well you listen to their wants/needs. There's a point beyond which more lights no longer have any effect on people's opinions of the entertainment value, especially as they are expecting to hear music... lighting is somewhat secondary. Of course that threshold is for you to figure out.

[Ricesnaps]

Propeller - SPOT ON!

[PropellerHeadCase]

Propeller - SPOT ON!

Why thank you :D :beer1:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

i'm going to get shouted down for being a youth who doesn't know his place, but I think they are a little dated nowadays.

Style and presentation never dates Rich. ;)

[rob1963]

The key and hard thing to do is to try to stop selling your equipment to clients.




Ricesnaps,

I completely agree with this...so much so that I've recently removed ALL references to equipment from my website. I've ALWAYS sold myself primarily on my experience, professionalism & the service I can offer clients.

The point I was making was that gigs in larger venues for 400-500 people DO require extra equipment. This equipment takes longer to set up, and as time is money, DJs can and DO charge extra in this situation...in the case of a couple of my friends, up to £150 extra. However, if someone wants to take out a massive rig with loads more equipment which takes twice as long to set up, but still charge the same, that's up to them.

Earlier in this thread, you said:

"It never will be the extra you offer that makes you earn more money"

"What's wrong with having one price and one show?"

"Equipment based pricing is never going to be the way to earn better money"

.....and yet you don't seem to take your own advice. Your website appears to contradict these statements - because you charge more for a wedding than a non-wedding, and also because you offer an "All day wedding package" for a set price...and an "All day speeches package" offering two extra items of equipment - a radio mic & confetti cannon - for which you charge £90 extra!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ricesnaps]

Earlier in this thread, you said:

"It never will be the extra you offer that makes you earn more money"

"What's wrong with having one price and one show?"

"Equipment based pricing is never going to be the way to earn better money"

.....and yet you don't seem to take your own advice. Your website appears to contradict these statements - because you charge more for a wedding than a non-wedding, and also because you offer an "All day wedding package" for a set price...and an "All day speeches package" offering two extra items of equipment - a radio mic & confetti cannon - for which you charge £90 extra!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:

I don't mean to be rude here, but sometimes you really really feel like banging your head agains a very firm brick wall!

Have you not been readying any of my posts? Did you not read the "next level" thread I posted a few weeks ago? If you had you would have noted the following:

1. I keep highlighting the fact that I BELIEVE in the advice, BUT am still having difficulty taking my own advice

2. It has been mentioned a few times on the thread I started, that my wedding pricing is not particularly good and I am doing a great deal of research to put it right.

3. I have only so far made comments regarding equipment. The fact that I charge more for a wedding booking has absolutely nothing to do with equipment and hopefully if you had read what it says on my site (and granted I already know I need to do a little more work on it), you may notice that I have, to date been basing my pricing on my time and worth. A wedding involves a great deal more work and effort than a normal turn up set up go home disco and requires that little extra touch and experience.

4. £90 is a lot to pay just to add radio mics (although it's a lovely little set up and the Carlsbro active speakers will look great) and I already know thet - watch this space.

Add to that the fact that I actually don't do much different with my rig from a normal £200 disco and a £220 wedding I would hope goes part way to demonstrating my previous comments.

Remember, I never said I was doing it right, but I have overcome the huge first step of recognising what I need to do.

[sleah]

Firstly, there is a certain standard of equipment.

I think this has hit on the whole point. As an industry we should agree that to call yourself professional (not in the full time sense) then you should be using a minimum standard of gear. I.E. A sound system that is adequate and of good sound quality. Lighting is less important, but who wants to see a moonflower stuffed to one side that's so dim it can hardly be seen?:(
The starting point for anyone selling themselves is to sell a show that is adequate for a given venue for a given event, then you can try to add the extras.:cool:
Some clients want the whole 'nightclub' experience while others are happy with something low key.
We all seem to agree that clients neither understand or care about tech specs.
Tell them you will be using a sound system adequate for the size of the room and number of guests, that's all they need/want to know. They may ask for a louder sound, in which case add a couple of quid for extra amp & speakers.
For lighting, I would give them a rough outline of your standard show for the venue/type of function and take it from there.
I have previously described it as: "A goal-post style support with 4 or 5 lighting effects that throw beams all around the room and 4 ordinary coloured lights, where possible I like use a haze machine to enhance the look of the lights." .... or words to that effect, which gives them an idea of what to expect. They may then say that is too much, or can you make it more 'club' like.

Don't feel guilty charging the same if your show won't fit and you can only use box lights, after all they are after a DJ not a light show, unless of course they DO want a lightshow, then you have to let them down gently:D

[rob1963]

I don't mean to be rude here, but sometimes you really really feel like banging your head agains a very firm brick wall!

Have you not been readying any of my posts? Did you not read the "next level" thread I posted a few weeks ago? If you had you would have noted the following:

1. I keep highlighting the fact that I BELIEVE in the advice, BUT am still having difficulty taking my own advice

2. It has been mentioned a few times on the thread I started, that my wedding pricing is not particularly good and I am doing a great deal of research to put it right.

3. I have only so far made comments regarding equipment. The fact that I charge more for a wedding booking has absolutely nothing to do with equipment and hopefully if you had read what it says on my site (and granted I already know I need to do a little more work on it), you may notice that I have, to date been basing my pricing on my time and worth. A wedding involves a great deal more work and effort than a normal turn up set up go home disco and requires that little extra touch and experience.

4. £90 is a lot to pay just to add radio mics (although it's a lovely little set up and the Carlsbro active speakers will look great) and I already know thet - watch this space.

Add to that the fact that I actually don't do much different with my rig from a normal £200 disco and a £220 wedding I would hope goes part way to demonstrating my previous comments.

Remember, I never said I was doing it right, but I have overcome the huge first step of recognising what I need to do.

Ricesnaps,

With all due respect, no - I don't read all your posts, and no - I didn't see the "next level" one...so all I've based my comments on here are your messages in THIS thread.

I will look up the "next level" thread, which by the sound of it will give me a better idea of where you are coming from.

Rob.

[PropellerHeadCase]

I think this has hit on the whole point. As an industry we should agree that to call yourself professional (not in the full time sense) then you should be using a minimum standard of gear. I.E. A sound system that is adequate and of good sound quality. Lighting is less important, but who wants to see a moonflower stuffed to one side that's so dim it can hardly be seen?:(
The starting point for anyone selling themselves is to sell a show that is adequate for a given venue for a given event, then you can try to add the extras.:cool:
Some clients want the whole 'nightclub' experience while others are happy with something low key.
We all seem to agree that clients neither understand or care about tech specs.
Tell them you will be using a sound system adequate for the size of the room and number of guests, that's all they need/want to know. They may ask for a louder sound, in which case add a couple of quid for extra amp & speakers.
For lighting, I would give them a rough outline of your standard show for the venue/type of function and take it from there.
I have previously described it as: "A goal-post style support with 4 or 5 lighting effects that throw beams all around the room and 4 ordinary coloured lights, where possible I like use a haze machine to enhance the look of the lights." .... or words to that effect, which gives them an idea of what to expect. They may then say that is too much, or can you make it more 'club' like.

Don't feel guilty charging the same if your show won't fit and you can only use box lights, after all they are after a DJ not a light show, unless of course they DO want a lightshow, then you have to let them down gently:D

Which kinda ties back to my Reasonable Rates (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6155) thread... minimum standard implies minimum price.

[rob1963]

Which kinda ties back to my Reasonable Rates (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6155) thread... minimum standard implies minimum price.

The problem with talking about minimum standards is that everyone's definition will be different!

[rob1963]

As an industry we should agree that to call yourself professional (not in the full time sense) then you should be using a minimum standard of gear.

Sleah,

With all due respect, the full time sense is the ONLY way you can call yourself professional (unless you're using the word incorrectly).

As I've stated before, professional simply means "does it for a living" and has absolutely NOTHING to do with how good you are.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Sleah,

With all due respect, the full time sense is the ONLY way you can call yourself professional (unless you're using the word incorrectly).



Sorry Rob, that simply isn't true and I think you'll upset a lot of people with that statement.

Have a look through a few of these definitions. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aprofessional&meta=

[rob1963]

Sorry Rob, that simply isn't true and I think you'll upset a lot of people with that statement.

Have a look through a few of these definitions. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aprofessional&meta=

Oh my gosh, Darren - there's about 10 pages worth there!

I wasn't intending to upset people.

I was simply trying to make the point that the normal definition of the word professional when I've looked it up in various dictionaries is something like "earns a living from it"

However, the word is often used to mean "very good" - which it doesn't.

Some other MDD forum members have previously stated that the word is often mis-understood & mis-used, so I'm clearly not the only person with this view.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

OK then.

Definitions from the Oxford Dictionary.

Professional:

1. Relating to or belonging to a profession

2. Engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amatuer.

3. Habitually engaged in a particular activity.

N. A professional person - a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

So, I don't really think there's much arguement there. Nothing about being fulltime at all.

[rob1963]

OK then.

Definitions from the Oxford Dictionary.

Professional:

1. Relating to or belonging to a profession

2. Engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amatuer.

3. Habitually engaged in a particular activity.

N. A professional person - a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

So, I don't really think there's much arguement there. Nothing about being fulltime at all.


Ok Darren,

In that case, here's a scenario:

Someone has a 9-5 job, but does discos at the weekends. He turns up late & wears a dirty t-shirt & an old pair of ripped jeans. He has a 100 watt amplifier and one flashing light. His music collection consists of a few dozen cds. He refuses requests, and if someone queries this, he becomes abusive. He has no PAT testing or PLI & doesn't pay tax on his DJ earnings. He also has no contracts or paperwork, and if he finds another gig for more money, then he might not turn up at all.

As he fulfils all 3 definitions above, he can legitimately describe himself as professional.

In my opinion, this makes the word completely meaningless.

[DK Karaoke]

In my opinion, I think its all getting a little bit too heated here.

Myself, I think when DJ's use the word professional they take it to mean, 'good, very good, experienced and know what they are doing', have all the appropriate gear to undertake their profession. After all not all DJ's do it full time, some only do it part time, and the 'part timer's are just as 'professional, good' as full timers, and vice versa.

The game we are in, is obviously providing services, which hope to satisfy the 'personal' likings or needs of clients. By this I mean, music, with associated effects to help enhance the delivery/mood, that is lights.

Music is very personal, thats why we have so many music types, and each person has a 'personal' choice/preference. Thats also why its so hard to satisfy clients during a gig, where there is a big age gap.

A professional DJ, will be able to deliver the required music type with appropriate effects to satisfy at least 80% of the people most of the time. Its the old 80:20 rule.

Again I have expressed my 'personal' opinion, and we are all different, but hopefully we are all professional, as I have 'personally' defined.
Martyn

[Corabar Entertainment]

:agree: Exactly: Going back to the dictionary definition... most DJs use it as a noun (as in professional service) IMO :D

[Steve 'B']

Look at what a dj does. You can then make your own mind up as to if he is a pro or not. I bet there are alot of djs out there Rob that have a far more advanced system than yourself and follow the rules and regs and they still hold down a 9-5. In this day in age we all have to do something else to get by as to be honest DJ'ing does not earn enough to survive. I know I service gear and do landscape gardening! Does this now mean I am 'not proffessional'? Generally DJing is a weekend thing so you can be a proffessional at weekends with your DJ'ing and weekdays with whatever else.

[rob1963]

Look at what a dj does. You can then make your own mind up as to if he is a pro or not. I bet there are alot of djs out there Rob that have a far more advanced system than yourself and follow the rules and regs and they still hold down a 9-5. In this day in age we all have to do something else to get by as to be honest DJ'ing does not earn enough to survive. I know I service gear and do landscape gardening! Does this now mean I am 'not proffessional'? Generally DJing is a weekend thing so you can be a proffessional at weekends with your DJ'ing and weekdays with whatever else.

Hiya Steve,

You're right...there are probably LOADS of DJs out there with more advanced systems than me.

I've never wanted a really advanced system, as this would cost more money, which I wouldn't recoup, and as we have both said before, all the punter really wants is a sound system that does the job & some flashing lights.

From the definitions (a few replies back) of "professional", it's clear that virtually anyone who does DJing can describe themselves as professional - even the cowboy in my example scenario - which pretty much makes the word meaningless.

[steviev55]

LOL more Kwik Save.
I too have a set up, 3K sound rig, Lasers, and all that but when it comes down to it, when peeps have had a skin full they aint bothered what you got or what your playin.

Steve

[aj.promotions]

In and around the ares where i work and live most djs only work for about £100 per show because thats all people will pay.
at the end of the day people who book a mobile disco want a reliable service, good music and a good and friendly dj who knows what the customer wants.
if they are entertained and the roadshow is tidy they dont give a stuff how much the lighting rig etc costs. they just want to have a good time.:zip: :confused:

[steviev55]

Exactly. :-) off to bed gigs get later!

[soundtracker]

Aah the old professionalism thread - do a search - we've done this one to death over the last few years. As far as I'm concerned it is a state of mind, striving to do the very best you can at all stages of the engagement, from initial contact to post gig feedback.

[rob1963]

I keep highlighting the fact that I BELIEVE in the advice, BUT am still having difficulty taking my own advice

Remember, I never said I was doing it right, but I have overcome the huge first step of recognising what I need to do.

There are 3 stages involved with a problem:
Firstly, identifying what the problem is
Secondly, coming up with the solution
Thirdly, putting the solution into place.

The first two, in my opinion, are the hardest...with the easiest part being putting the solution into place.

The fact that you're having problems taking your own advice & putting the solution into place suggests to me that you're not 100% confident that you've come up with the RIGHT solution, in which case it's back to the drawing board.

[Sam]

sorry if this has already been said,
but rob.

"Our deluxe disco has 50% more lighting than the standard option" -
no where, it seems.... do you state what your equipment actually consists of.. so it could mean..
your taking two par cans instead of one.

[rob1963]

sorry if this has already been said,
but rob.

"Our deluxe disco has 50% more lighting than the standard option" -
no where, it seems.... do you state what your equipment actually consists of.. so it could mean..
your taking two par cans instead of one.

Hi AsTecDJs,

When I wrote the thread, my disco page quoted the wattage of the lightshow for each disco (940 watts for the standard disco & 1.44kW for the deluxe version).

However, it was pointed out to me that many clients won't know what that means, so I've recently removed the technical info & replaced it with more customer friendly language.

You are right - it COULD mean that I take 2 par cans instead of one, but I think thats a bit naive. I'm sure that most clients would be aware that a professional disco will have more lights than one par can.

If they want to know the specifics, they only have to ask me, but nobody has since I made the amendment a few weeks ago, and I've taken quite a few bookings since then, so I don't see it as a problem.

Thanks for your comments anyway.

:)

[PropellerHeadCase]

sorry if this has already been said,
but rob.

"Our deluxe disco has 50% more lighting than the standard option" -
no where, it seems.... do you state what your equipment actually consists of.. so it could mean..
your taking two par cans instead of one.

Actually 50% of one par can is ½ a parcan ;)

So, a parcan and a pin-spot, yeah?

[rob1963]

Actually 50% of one par can is ½ a parcan ;)

So, a parcan and a pin-spot, yeah?

Oh yes Al, good point!

Now where is my saw........

:p

[DMX Will]

Actually 50% of one par can is ½ a parcan ;)

So, a parcan and a pin-spot, yeah?

So how about you just include the wiring set and lamp.....

So you've got the par...but not the can ;)

[rob1963]

So how about you just include the wiring set and lamp.....

So you've got the par...but not the can ;)

Brilliant idea, Will! :D

[PropellerHeadCase]

Just don't drop yer drink on it or you'll be par-boiled!




TAXI!