PAT Testing on new equpiment

[scoopd]

I have purchased a couple of new lights in the last couple of weeks and somebody suggested to me that I don't need to get them PAT tested for a couple of years.Is this the case?

[Vibrant Sounds]

No,

There is no allowance for new items not to be PAT tested prior to use.

If you should have a problem/accident, and it is discovered that you are using items that have not been PAT tested then this may well render you liable to any action that may be taken against you, civil or criminal.

I would also say, that the most common occurance of PAT test fails is on new lighting that fails the Earth Bond test due to the lighting cases being hot dip painted after being manufactured but prior to the electronics being fitted. This often means that the resistance is high or very high and would in fact render the light dangerous if the case should come into contact with a live cable.

Hope this helps.

[CRAZY K]

No,

There is no allowance for new items not to be PAT tested prior to use.

If you should have a problem/accident, and it is discovered that you are using items that have not been PAT tested then this may well render you liable to any action that may be taken against you, civil or criminal.

I would also say, that the most common occurance of PAT test fails is on new lighting that fails the Earth Bond test due to the lighting cases being hot dip painted after being manufactured but prior to the electronics being fitted. This often means that the resistance is high or very high and would in fact render the light dangerous if the case should come into contact with a live cable.

Hope this helps.

Dont forget about CE marking.

If you dont know what that is try this--

http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.html

Im advised by my DJ shop that all NEW goods sold in EC have to have this which is a safety standard applying to new electrical goods, in theory the
item is tested beyond PAT levels in the factory.

Im not saying you should rely on it and we know some new items fail PAT tests.

This is why DJ shops say you dont need a PAT test for a year, you may however decide its safer and wiser to have a PAT test anyway.

Im not sure I completely agree that if theres an incident with a relatively new piece of equipment that the lack of PAT would make any difference, but having it wouldnt hurt in your defence.

CRAZY K

[spin mobile disco]

Yes I agree with K on this one. I used to work in factory and we had to test everything twice to a much higher degree than the average PAT test. Also the shops do tell you they are exempt for a year as already tested. But if your annual test is coming up anyway might as well put them in at the same time.

[Vibrant Sounds]

Dont forget about CE marking.

If you dont know what that is try this--

http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.html

Im advised by my DJ shop that all NEW goods sold in EC have to have this which is a safety standard applying to new electrical goods, in theory the
item is tested beyond PAT levels in the factory.

CRAZY K


Sorry, but that is a load of rubbish. The CE mark just means that the original design must meet a required standard to be allowed to be imported into the EU. It has no bearing on electrical safety at all.


Im not saying you should rely on it and we know some new items fail PAT tests.

CRAZY K

So what happened to your CE mark then! Many items fail PAT and the majority are new disco lights from China. With a CE mark!


This is why DJ shops say you don't need a PAT test for a year, you may however decide its safer and wiser to have a PAT test anyway.
CRAZY K

If any shop is telling you that an item does not have to be tested for any period then they are seriously mistaken, if not trying to deliberately mislead you. I will say it again, there is no set time period of allowance on new gear before it has to be PAT tested.


Im not sure I completely agree that if theres an incident with a relatively new piece of equipment that the lack of PAT would make any difference, but having it wouldnt hurt in your defence.

CRAZY K


Well, lets hope you never have to prove it then.

If you have an incident/accident involving an electrical item, you will be inspected by the Health & Safety Executive and you will have been expected to meet the H&S at Work act requirements for electrical safety. They will ask to see your risk assessments and your electrical safety check register of which your PAT certificate will form part, and is one of the few ways you can have to prove that you actually have had this done. This is something that you really should take seriously.

Still, not my problem, my kit is regularly checked, any new item procured is PAT tested before it is used in a public environment, I keep a register (small booklet with a list in) to show that each item is checked on a weekly basis for any damage.

Health & Safety and the legislation involved with it will be looking for someone to assume responsibility, anything you can do to show you have taken EVERY REASONABLE step to prevent anything happening will save your backside.

[Vibrant Sounds]

Yes I agree with K on this one. I used to work in factory and we had to test everything twice to a much higher degree than the average PAT test. Also the shops do tell you they are exempt for a year as already tested. But if your annual test is coming up anyway might as well put them in at the same time.

I am obviously wasting my time here. You all obviously know better than me.

Unless you have a PAT certificate supplied with the item, IT CANNOT BE CLASSED AS HAVING BEEN PAT TESTED.

[CRAZY K]

I am obviously wasting my time here. You all obviously know better than me.

Unless you have a PAT certificate supplied with the item, IT CANNOT BE CLASSED AS HAVING BEEN PAT TESTED.

I dont disagree with your recommendations to everyone on here---they are sensible--but personally I would be prepared to believe the Disco shop in Northampton who do my PAT testing and are very large suppliers of Sound lighting rigs, hiring etc. in the area.

Is there a standard written draft risk assessment available anywhere as I do these but only verbally to the client---like im not playing anymore until you clean that slippery orangeade off the dance floor!:D


thanks

CRAZY K

[soundtracker]

WE did this a fortnight ago, and exactly the same arguments were raised. Get them PA Tested!

[spin mobile disco]

Just thought I would post this link from the pat testing information website.
http://www.pat-testing.info/frequency.htm
this states that

The Health & Safety Executive offers no absolute rules on the frequency of the testing and inspection of portable appliances. The Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations suggests that 'regular inspection of equipment is an essential part of any preventative maintenance program', but no attempt is made to specify the intervals of time implied by the word 'regular'. The reason for this omission is obvious; different situations require different measures in order to meet the requirement that the danger is prevented. The factors which effect the frequency of testing must be assessed by the duty holder who thereby makes the judgement.

that is a direct quote thats says it is up to the person who uses equipment to asses. I have just bought some new lights myself and if you read the enclosed booklet is does state the electrical tests used when manafacutered. Not counting te ce mark it has 10 seperate en numbered tests which include earth bond and other pat test requirments. Underneath it states passed test of safety of household and similar electrical appliences part 1 general requirement.

Not starting an argument here but that would seem to me to be a statment of testing procedure. And as you saind it may not be a PAT test, by definition it is beyond a PAT test.

[mikeee]

I dont disagree with your recommendations to everyone on here I would say it's not a recommendation, it's a life saver.

Mr Spin, thank you for the link, did you read the whole site??? and have you read the HSE site - if you look close enough, there is a comment about "frequently moved equipment", it is recommended, and at the discretion of the inspector, that this type of equipment should be tested every 6 months, and if the equipment is of a sufficient age, and or appears to be "worn", a more frequent test may be required.
I asked a local sparkie about this last year, his definition is, if it's moved frequently, in and out of vehicles, in all types of weather, subject to the state of the equipment, he would ask for re tests every 3 to 6 months.

[CRAZY K]

I would say it's not a recommendation, it's a life saver.

Mr Spin, thank you for the link, did you read the whole site??? and have you read the HSE site - if you look close enough, there is a comment about "frequently moved equipment", it is recommended, and at the discretion of the inspector, that this type of equipment should be tested every 6 months, and if the equipment is of a sufficient age, and or appears to be "worn", a more frequent test may be required.
I asked a local sparkie about this last year, his definition is, if it's moved frequently, in and out of vehicles, in all types of weather, subject to the state of the equipment, he would ask for re tests every 3 to 6 months.

My equipment is looked after very well handled with great care and a lot of it looks like almost new---no doubt the large majority on here do the same--if its hired out---different story--

Perhaps hes thinking of Concrete Mixers and Hired Generators, Kangos and the like whose electrical connecting cables get regularly abused in all weathers? Done that myself:D

Al types of weather what? Left out in--used in--its a bit vague and doesnt appear to apply to DJ kit--nevertheless I do agree--get PAT on everything reasonably regularly.

CRAZY K

[Vibrant Sounds]

Mikee, I agree and test my gear every six months as Ads can attest to.

But none of this precludes the fact that a hell of a lot of NEW gear fails PAT particularly the earth bond test due to over zealous painting of the metal cases. This could be potentially lethal.

There is also, if people fully read the IEE Code of Practise, a different set of tests and required results for 'Production Testing' and 'In-Service Testing' and one does not circumvent the other.

I, as I believe you have, taken C&G 2377 in Pat testing, so am actually informing from a position of being qualified.

Hope the shop that is stating that all new items are exempt for a period of 12 months is sure all his kit is safe and passes PAT see here (http://www.pat-testing.info/News/TradingPost.htm)

I personally believe, all new kit should come with a PAT certificate from the shop, which is valid from the date of purchase until such time as your next PAT testing schedule is due, at which time it will be included in your inventory.

[mikeee]

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring the new kit angle, actually I think it's quite serious in the UK - Have a look at Numark kit :D

I wasn't suggusting you leave your kit out in all weather. I was trying to say that, one minute your in a hot humid room, then you carry it out to the vehicle at 0 degs in the winter (fast cooling effect), then your driving with the heating on, temp starts to rise again, so on and so forth, this all affects the "mechanical" soundness of equipment - expansion, contraction - joints, connectors. Brand new cables could fail in months if they are not coiled properly. There are more variables than you can wave a stick at. As well as the electrical test, it is also a requirement to do visual / mechanical checks, normally everytime you set up, these to should be logged on a report sheet.

[CRAZY K]

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring the new kit angle, actually I think it's quite serious in the UK - Have a look at Numark kit :D

I wasn't suggusting you leave your kit out in all weather. I was trying to say that, one minute your in a hot humid room, then you carry it out to the vehicle at 0 degs in the winter (fast cooling effect), then your driving with the heating on, temp starts to rise again, so on and so forth, this all affects the "mechanical" soundness of equipment - expansion, contraction - joints, connectors. Brand new cables could fail in months if they are not coiled properly. There are more variables than you can wave a stick at. As well as the electrical test, it is also a requirement to do visual / mechanical checks, normally everytime you set up, these to should be logged on a report sheet.

Which report sheet would that be Mike?

The one for the PAT test?

Is it possible to have some guidance on the draft standard risk assessment form at all as I only issue verbal warnings presently:D

thanks

CRAZY K

[Vibrant Sounds]

Which report sheet would that be Mike?

The one for the PAT test?

Is it possible to have some guidance on the draft standard risk assessment form at all as I only issue verbal warnings presently:D

thanks

CRAZY K

I suspect that Mikee means a sheet that has been designed for the purpose.

Under the H&SWA in the event of an accident you have to provide evidence that the kit has been regularly checked (and I don't mean just the annual PAT test) to this end, some of us make up a little booklet with the items in one column and a load of small columns to enable a tick or cross to be inserted after it is visually and physically checked during setup.

This becomes part of your risk assesment, it would also be prudent to mark the location of the venues fire extinguishers (and their type) on the same page/column as this also shows diligence and awarness.

Should an accident occur and you have made REASONABLE efforts to ensure your equipment and your working practices are REASONABLY safe then you will have nothing to worry about.

[Steve 'B']

Obviously the guide lines are rather unclear and we should all remeber that they are only guides. I test my gear once every 12 months on a full PAT test and again every 3 months on a good formal visual inspection. This is all logged by myself. To add to this, I think this would count for all of us and we do a certain amount of checking every time we set up. If I notice bare cable on a IEC lead I would, cut the plug off and put in in the bin (all of my IEC's are moulded). This is without a doubt more than reasonable. I maintain all my own gear to a high standard because I want it to last and it does exactly that.

Lets just calm the situation because i can see that people are getting wires crossed and a short circuit is on the cards!!

[spin mobile disco]

Surely visual inspection of equipment at every gig would cover you for cable wear etc. I replace most of mine about every 18 months as the cables start to get 'firm' and lose there flexibility and cracks are soon to follow. I have found that high flex cable they use for pond pumps etc last the longest.
I mean if i spotted a fault at anytime during a gig in setup or packdown or even during evening i would unplug and replace with a backup (if available) I take notes after gig to list any problems and then go through it next day in daylight.

[Corabar Steve]

I, as I believe you have, taken C&G 2377 in Pat testing, so am actually informing from a position of being qualified.

Then you should know that nothing has to be PAT tested.

It is however the best way of complying with H&S guidelines & it is advisable to have all equipment tested regardless of age. Until there is a definitive law about the subject, the myth of new kit not needing a test will continue (although technically nothing needs testing as the law stands at the moment).

On the other point it would seem sensible that frequently used DJ kit should be tested every 3 - 6 months, but 12 months seems to have become the accepted norm.

[Vibrant Sounds]

Then you should know that nothing has to be PAT tested.



I agree, nothing has to be PAT tested and there is no law in place that says it does. But many of the better venues now require it. And, if you are purporting and advertising your services as being PAT compliant and holding PAT certificates for your electrical items, then everything does need to be tested and certificated, including items just purchased (ie no period of grace for new items).

I also wonder where the clients could go with this, if you are advertising that all your kit is PAT tested and certificated and some of it isn't and the customer is booking you partly on the strength of that (hence the PAT approved logos on many DJs websites) as it may be a condition of their using a particular venue, what then if the venue actually check you equipment against the certificates supplied (some do) and you are not allowed to use something that is essential for your gig, what happens then? are you not also committing fraud by not being fully covered? Certainly could be guilty of false advertising!

You are actually PAT compliant or you are not, end of story, your choice, but as soon as you start using kit that has not been tested then why did you bother to get the rest done. Yes, I know it is a pain, Yes I know it is an additional expense but you either comply or you don't.

The original poster was asking about the period of grace allowed on new kit, If you want to stay PAT compliant "there is no period of grace".

As I said, each person is at liberty to do as they please, I do what I do, each to their own.

[Corabar Steve]

But my point was it's a myth based on a law that doesn't exist in the first place. Your posts on the subject do come over a bit "You must do this". A bit of scaremongering can go a long way eh?

Personally I would say, if you don't have your equipment tested then you're a fool, as it is the best way to comply with H&S guidelines.

[mikeee]

PAT has become the acceptable way to do the basic minimum to comply with the Electricity at Work Act 1989, this is a requirement. I believe the word "Must" was used to show the gravity of the subject, and that, even if you disagree or think it's more government twaddle, you still have to have it done.

[soundtracker]

There is a marvelous facility on this site called "search" it saves the necessity to keep repeating the same old same old time after time - try and use it folks, saves these same arguments having to be covered again and again!

[CRAZY K]

But my point was it's a myth based on a law that doesn't exist in the first place. Your posts on the subject do come over a bit "You must do this". A bit of scaremongering can go a long way eh?

Personally I would say, if you don't have your equipment tested then you're a fool, as it is the best way to comply with H&S guidelines.

Without wishing to be a smart a...e about this---if theres an "accident" and theres no requirement for a log book to be regularly entered on a H and S records---whats to stop me making up a load of old tosh after the accident and presenting it to H and S afterwards with the current PAT certificates?

Not my fault guvnor--everything was fine.

Please do not think this is how I work--im the opposite--but it has to be said.

Whats the answer ?

To repeat my question--WHERE DO I GET A RISK ASSESSMENT FORM PLEASE?

CRAZY K