Contractual Obligations

[Ricesnaps]

Our Chocolate fountain business had a call yesterday from a rather distressed bride. She had booked a chocolate fountain from another local company for her wedding on Saturday. Came home and found a message on her answerphone from the company saying soming like:

"Just called to let you know that I have to go into hospital so I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to your wedding on Saturday"

The lady tried for a couple of hours to contact the company with no joy at which point she called us. In a nutshell, she wants to cancel her booking with the company she's booked simply because she is now hugely worried that he won't turn up and her wedding will be ruined. However, she has now paid her final balance and can't afford to book us instead if she doesn't get her money back. She also says that the contract she signed clearly describes her obligations should she choose to cancel, but doesn't say anything about the companies obligation to her!

This made me think about my disco contract (and of course our chocolate fountain one too). I'm certain mine doesn't say anything about what happens if I can't make a gig. So what's the bottom line here? If there's nothing in the contract is there some sort of UK legislation which would force the company to provide a full refund, even though it doesn't say they will on the contract, or is the obligation there by law simply BECAUSE the contract doesn't state otherwise? To make sure we address this ourselves in future, is there something we should be including in our contracts to make clear how this is handled.

While I am sure you would all agree that the bride has been badly let down, part of the worry is that the company she has booked actually hasn't cancelled, but maybe worse, has suggested they will not be reliable. How does she stand with that.

This is intended to be a "legal" question, so while you may be appauled that a company would act like this, I am really more interested in the legal issues right now!

[CRAZY K]

Our Chocolate fountain business had a call yesterday from a rather distressed bride. She had booked a chocolate fountain from another local company for her wedding on Saturday. Came home and found a message on her answerphone from the company saying soming like:

"Just called to let you know that I have to go into hospital so I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to your wedding on Saturday"

The lady tried for a couple of hours to contact the company with no joy at which point she called us. In a nutshell, she wants to cancel her booking with the company she's booked simply because she is now hugely worried that he won't turn up and her wedding will be ruined. However, she has now paid her final balance and can't afford to book us instead if she doesn't get her money back. She also says that the contract she signed clearly describes her obligations should she choose to cancel, but doesn't say anything about the companies obligation to her!

This made me think about my disco contract (and of course our chocolate fountain one too). I'm certain mine doesn't say anything about what happens if I can't make a gig. So what's the bottom line here? If there's nothing in the contract is there some sort of UK legislation which would force the company to provide a full refund, even though it doesn't say they will on the contract, or is the obligation there by law simply BECAUSE the contract doesn't state otherwise? To make sure we address this ourselves in future, is there something we should be including in our contracts to make clear how this is handled.

While I am sure you would all agree that the bride has been badly let down, part of the worry is that the company she has booked actually hasn't cancelled, but maybe worse, has suggested they will not be reliable. How does she stand with that.

This is intended to be a "legal" question, so while you may be appauled that a company would act like this, I am really more interested in the legal issues right now!

THIS REPLY IS MY PERSONAL UNQUALIFIED OPINION AND I DO NOT ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR THE VIEWS EXPRESSED.

Well firstly if she doesnt take action she probably will be without a Fountain--

You need an opinion from an experienced or qualified person--I dont think Angela is on the forum at the moment--im sure she would know--would have thought she would be within her rights to book you and claim back from the other people--cant afford it? You dont charge thousands do you :D

I would insist you get paid BEFORE you get the Fountain out the car--none of this--well I will pay you when I get my money back from the people who let me down:eek: :eek: :eek: Good Night!

Just had a protracted nasty long winded incident on a last minute booking which revolves around bouncing cheques:(

If YOU let them down off the top of my head its breach of Contract by you---

The "customer" would be entitled to compensation and damages if you failed to turn up--as well as money back of course.

My ex Disco partner tells me one of his DJs failed to show at a New Years Eve party and he got a compensation claim for loss of enjoyment, etc.

Im not sure if you can put in a get out clause--all reasonable steps have been taken etc. however in the event of unforseen events we are not responsible.

I HAVE A DISCLAIMER FOR ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE--BUT THAT WOULDNT HOLD UP IN COURT :eek:

Probably NADJ or SEDA have this in their T and C --I have seen similar wordings on Agency Contracts.

regards

CRAZY K

[Ricesnaps]

THIS REPLY IS MY PERSONAL UNQUALIFIED OPINION AND I DO NOT ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR THE VIEWS EXPRESSED.

Well firstly if she doesnt take action she probably will be without a Fountain--

You need an opinion from an experienced or qualified person--I dont think Angela is on the forum at the moment--im sure she would know--would have thought she would be within her rights to book you and claim back from the other people--cant afford it? You dont charge thousands do you :D

I would insist you get paid BEFORE you get the Fountain out the car--none of this--well I will pay you when I get my money back from the people who let me down:eek: :eek: :eek: Good Night!

Just had a protracted nasty long winded incident on a last minute booking which revolves around bouncing cheques:(

If YOU let them down off the top of my head its breach of Contract by you---

The "customer" would be entitled to compensation and damages if you failed to turn up--as well as money back of course.

My ex Disco partner tells me one of his DJs failed to show at a New Years Eve party and he got a compensation claim for loss of enjoyment, etc.

Im not sure if you can put in a get out clause--all reasonable steps have been taken etc. however in the event of unforseen events we are not responsible.

I HAVE A DISCLAIMER FOR ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE--BUT THAT WOULDNT HOLD UP IN COURT :eek:

Probably NADJ or SEDA have this in their T and C --I have seen similar wordings on Agency Contracts.

regards

CRAZY K

Thanks for that. I guess when you have paid for everything at a wedding, paying out another £400 when you have already paid it once may be tough? We have already gone down the "we must be paid" route, but as the client is fairly local and we would need our paperwork completed, I'm suggesting my wife actually pops over to see her, collect the money and complete paperwork. Would also I think be superb PR!

As for contracts, I'm really keen to know if there is anything we could or SHOULD be putting in which offers our clients some protection. If I was rushed into hospital on Friday and couldn't do my gig on Saturday, other than knowing that my family and friends would rally round and call everyone under the sun to get it covered, I'm guessing that if I was just not able to do it, I would be more than happy to refund the clients fee. But how does that get into our contracts?

[soundtracker]

My T & Cs say:

In the event of the entertainment service provider failing to appear, the entertainment service provider shall be liable to compensate the client up to an amount not exceeding 200% of the agreed fee. Whilst the entertainment service provider will use its best endeavors to attend at the function and give a satisfactory performance, should the entertainment service provider be prevented from doing so for any reason outside its control (including mechanical breakdown, equipment failure, sickness, adverse weather conditions, civil unrest or war) the entertainment service provider shall not incur any liability for its non-appearance provided the client is informed at the earliest opportunity.

Hope that helps!

[Dragonfly]

This is intended to be a "legal" question, so while you may be appauled that a company would act like this, I am really more interested in the legal issues right now!

personally think that your wording is a little if not alot strong ......... hospitalization is not something someone chooses to do mr.rice ........... maybe just maybe they were rushed in with something very serious and thought it best to warn their clients about the situation .... when you are lying in a hospital bed you are not allowed to use a mobile and have a quick ring round and maybe in rather alot of pain ..... thought of that???? i get very very annoyed on this site when we get people over glamourizing situations that they have limited information about ....

yes the company should have said something along the lines of "we will use our contacts to find you a replacement if possible and call you back when we know more"

I have spent quite literally half of my life in hospital and know exactly what its like .....

I have let 1 client down last minute in the same way before i knew about resourses like this good site and when one tuesday i was rushed into hospital with abdominal pains woke up thursday morning with a 2ft cut down my front and a surgeon stood over me saying if you had battled that for another week you would be dead mate.

of course i called the client actually before surgery on the tuesday but was single lived on my own and was not really in the position when on morphine every 20 minutes for pain to just have a flick through the yellow pages for them.

the poor chap could be in hospital with his arms and legs dangling off and all you are worried about is how appalling his customer service is......


well im to be honest appalled at how narrow minded some people can be.

I totally agree that the company should have and could have dealt with this alot better and differently and could have been alot more customer friendly .... but in the real world its not always possible... im sure mr mcann has had to cancel one or 2 of his patients last minute recently as some inconsiderate fool prat has nicked his daughter.

yes I also admit that one or 2 in this business are unscrupulous and go out for the highest bidder so to speak but to be honest id go totally insane and lock myself in the downstairs toilet forever if i thought everyone was like it and just maybe one or 2 are genuine.


I am having surgery again in september not cancelled any bookings and have arranged help with carrying etc at gigs i will be on crutches for 14 weeks and not allowed to put my foot to the floor for 6 as the screws will not have set properly.........

god help me if i slip or fall at a gig no ones insurance including my own will go anywhere near me as i shouldnt be doing the job in that state....... still at least ill keep my customer service record hey ....

sorry but the dragon is breathing fire today.

and yes she should have a full refund however it maybe a little difficult to pop down to the post office for the chap at the minute???

all i conclude from this post is the guys telephone technique is a bit if not very pants sorry toilet. but there maybe reason for that if hes just about to nip and have his leg sewn back on.

[CRAZY K]

My T & Cs say:

In the event of the entertainment service provider failing to appear, the entertainment service provider shall be liable to compensate the client up to an amount not exceeding 200% of the agreed fee. Whilst the entertainment service provider will use its best endeavors to attend at the function and give a satisfactory performance, should the entertainment service provider be prevented from doing so for any reason outside its control (including mechanical breakdown, equipment failure, sickness, adverse weather conditions, civil unrest or war) the entertainment service provider shall not incur any liability for its non-appearance provided the client is informed at the earliest opportunity.

Hope that helps!

Is that the NADJ recommended approach ?

If so I guess we should all be including that clause,

regards

CRAZY K

[Dragonfly]

mine says something like that with we will endeavour to find a suitable replacement wherever possible to appear in our place at no extra cost to the client.

[PropellerHeadCase]

I'd say that as the supplier can't fulfil their contractual obligations that the contract has been voided by their (in)action. If they are sensible they will refund her after the fact.

[Ricesnaps]

personally think that your wording is a little if not alot strong ......... hospitalization is not something someone chooses to do mr.rice ........... maybe just maybe they were rushed in with something very serious and thought it best to warn their clients about the situation .... when you are lying in a hospital bed you are not allowed to use a mobile and have a quick ring round and maybe in rather alot of pain ..... thought of that???? i get very very annoyed on this site when we get people over glamourizing situations that they have limited information about ....

yes the company should have said something along the lines of "we will use our contacts to find you a replacement if possible and call you back when we know more"


You may step down from your platform now!

Seriously, there are always times when we write things on forums like this that are maybe done in haste or convey different meanings to different people. The intention of my post was honestly not to point fingers at or ask for comment on the chap who is now in hospital at all. maybe I didn't make that clear enough in my original post. The whole point of mentioning it was because I, that's ME, am now concerned that maybe I have not covered my otions as well as i should have done in my contract and would like some advice on how to better serve my clients.

Incidently (and if I was a little forthright in my opinions for some, then please accept my apology, the phone rang at 1am last night, my Grandmothers nursing home, 500 miles away in Cardiff, unable to get hold of my uncle and absolutely blind panic about "chest pains" and and instruction (verbal at that) not to send her to hospital. I guess maybe I hadn't had much sleep at the time of the first post), it would have been much better for the company to have left a clear message actually saying that they could or couldn't do the gig. They were obviously able to get to a phone, I'm just highlighting the fact that this has actually caused a lot of worry and issues for the client. He could have gone away on a last minute winter sum holiday for all I care, this post was intended to discuss the contractual issues I could have in future, not the failed wedding booking because of a hospital problem!

[theoloyla]

Ricesnaps, dont worry your original post was quite clear and fair I think Dragonfly is the one over reacting. Of course we all feel sorry for anyone who is prevented from working by serious illness or accident. If the poor chap doesnt or cant turn up and he has been pre-paid then the bride is entitled to a full refund. He did the right thing by calling her but it would probably have been better if he had made a firm decision that he could not do the job or arranged for someone else to cover it. Whilst we may feel sorry for his ill health and predicament his actions have only caused uncertainty to the customer who now doesnt feel sure that the service will be provided. All businesses should think through the "what if scenario". That is why we carry spares, join the RAC, have our equipment tested and maintained and belong to associations, agencies or sites like this where we can get help if things go pear shaped. Not thinking through these things and providing for emergencies is part of what separates the cowboy from the responsible operator.
The wording used by Soundtracker seems quite good. In the SEDA contract T & C 6 says "In the unlikely event of the discotheque being unable to appear for any reason, the discotheque reserves the right to fulfil its obligations by arranging a suitable alternative discotheque to appear in its place so that the function may proceed." As I have said before the SEDA contract has been in use for 30 years and was approved by the Office Of Fair Trading and has been tested at law .

[Ricesnaps]

Ricesnaps, dont worry your original post was quite clear and fair I think Dragonfly is the one over reacting. Of course we all feel sorry for anyone who is prevented from working by serious illness or accident. If the poor chap doesnt or cant turn up and he has been pre-paid then the bride is entitled to a full refund. He did the right thing by calling her but it would probably have been better if he had made a firm decision that he could not do the job or arranged for someone else to cover it. Whilst we may feel sorry for his ill health and predicament his actions have only caused uncertainty to the customer who now doesnt feel sure that the service will be provided. All businesses should think through the "what if scenario". That is why we carry spares, join the RAC, have our equipment tested and maintained and belong to associations, agencies or sites like this where we can get help if things go pear shaped. Not thinking through these things and providing for emergencies is part of what separates the cowboy from the responsible operator.
The wording used by Soundtracker seems quite good. In the SEDA contract T & C 6 says "In the unlikely event of the discotheque being unable to appear for any reason, the discotheque reserves the right to fulfil its obligations by arranging a suitable alternative discotheque to appear in its place so that the function may proceed." As I have said before the SEDA contract has been in use for 30 years and was approved by the Office Of Fair Trading and has been tested at law .

Thanks for that, glad you apreciated that I didn't mean to sound harsh or uncaring!

It's been a bad day to be honest - also now roadieless for Saturday which might be a huge pain!

[Dragonfly]

I was merely objucting to the words "badly let down"

and

"while you may be appauled that a company would act like this"

which i felt were over stated , and sounded to my mind a little self rightous when only minimal facts are known.

apologies for my total over reaction i shall keep my caring thoughts about the well being of others tightly under wraps.

[TonyB]

How about trying to contact the other company yourself and offering to help out. Could be the start of a good business relationship - passing work to each other when booked or problems arise just like DJ's do. Is there a chocolate fountain forum somewhere?

[CRAZY K]

How about trying to contact the other company yourself and offering to help out. Could be the start of a good business relationship - passing work to each other when booked or problems arise just like DJ's do. Is there a chocolate fountain forum somewhere?

Yes Willy Wonkas just posted on it!:D :D :D :D :D

CRAZY K

[Dragonfly]

How about trying to contact the other company yourself and offering to help out. Could be the start of a good business relationship - passing work to each other when booked or problems arise just like DJ's do. Is there a chocolate fountain forum somewhere?


now there is a blinkin good idea Tony...:D

[Ricesnaps]

now there is a blinkin good idea Tony...:D

And something I am completely in favour off. However, it does seem that the whole world of Chocolate Fountains is somewhat different to ours. There is one company in particular (who I willo obviously not mention), who use negative marketing as a feature of there pitch. Not absolutely certain if we have been included yet, but it is widely known that some venues have been warned off some companies by these guys!

Otherwise, the local bods do generally tend to keep there cards very close to their chests. We just have one other company locally who we do support, but noone else even remotely interested. Such a shame.

[Dragonfly]

now theres something i really hate negative marketing ...... i cringe when i see it on the tv my whole family is from a marketing background and i just think personally it just shows a total lack of creativity and imagination......

cant think of anything wonderful about what i do ..... so ill just say everyone else is toilet...... total cop out when you have people (like Rice for the record) who are taking alot of time and effort to show what they do in the best way and most positive possible. without the need to damage someone else.

always remember a car ad doing it and used to turn over when the ad came on.

the so and so ....outbrakes the ford ......
it out excellerates the peugeot .....
it has more features than the vw .......

hated it.

[rob1963]

Now theres something i really hate negative marketing.....total cop out when you have people (like Rice for the record) who are taking alot of time and effort to show what they do in the best way and most positive possible. without the need to damage someone else.....


.....Apart from ME, of course! :p

I completely agree about negative marketing scraping the bottom of the barrell.

I used to help a friend do wedding fayres...and we discovered that a rival company there was actually telling potential clients not to book US...as we were only a small part time business & were not reliable etc etc.

I find that completely unacceptable.

Responsible advertising should focus on us & what we CAN do, not knocking the competition by naming them & saying what they CAN'T do.

[Ricesnaps]

now theres something i really hate negative marketing ...... i cringe when i see it on the tv my whole family is from a marketing background and i just think personally it just shows a total lack of creativity and imagination......

cant think of anything wonderful about what i do ..... so ill just say everyone else is toilet...... total cop out when you have people (like Rice for the record) who are taking alot of time and effort to show what they do in the best way and most positive possible. without the need to damage someone else.

always remember a car ad doing it and used to turn over when the ad came on.

the so and so ....outbrakes the ford ......
it out excellerates the peugeot .....
it has more features than the vw .......

hated it.

Apreciate the comments Mr Dragon. Sorry if I hit a nerve earlier, wasn't intended. i think we're both looking for the same thing.

Completely off topic, but sort of in line with this, I have my first "new aproach" wedding fair on Sunday. Struggling with how to open the discussion. Historically it would have been "hi there, have you booked a disco? Can I take a little time to tell you what we can do for you?". This time it needs to be "How can we help you?" or "What are you looking for from your DJ", but somehow it doesn't quite sound right. Any tips?

[groovy-nights]

try what do you want from your disco/dj

[Shakermaker Promotions]

"Roadieless"??? That should be added to the dictionary.

I don't get the whole roadie thing, I'd much rather do it all on my own like I have done but that's not a diss or anything....each to their own and all that.

[Ricesnaps]

Just an update. Bride just called, can't get hold of the company she booked, so has sent a letter asking for her money back and has booked us!

[Penfold42]

Just an update. Bride just called, can't get hold of the company she booked, so has sent a letter asking for her money back and has booked us!

Result then...:)

[rob1963]

"Roadieless"??? That should be added to the dictionary.

I don't get the whole roadie thing, I'd much rather do it all on my own like I have done but that's not a diss or anything....each to their own and all that.

Same here, Shakermaker. :)

[Ricesnaps]

Same here, Shakermaker. :)

Honestly, once you've had one you will NEVER want to work without one, trust me!

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Er...no, not at all. I am happy with the way I do things as they are mate.

[rob1963]

Honestly, once you've had one you will NEVER want to work without one, trust me!

I HAVE had one, Ricesnaps.

When I started out, I did discos with a friend, so for the first few years there were 2 of us to share the work (but also the money!).

I've also done 2 or 3 gigs in central London where my brother came along to help.

Having a roadie makes things incredibly quick & easy, but apart from the 2 or 3 gigs mentioned above, I've always done things on my own for the last 15 years.

One advantage is that you don't have to rely on others, they can't let you down...like you were let down for this Saturday.

From what you were saying, if you hadn't found a replacement, you'd have been in trouble.

[Ricesnaps]

I HAVE had one, Ricesnaps.

When I started out, I did discos with a friend, so for the first few years there were 2 of us to share the work (but also the money!).

I've also done 2 or 3 gigs in central London where my brother came along to help.

Having a roadie makes things incredibly quick & easy, but apart from the 2 or 3 gigs mentioned above, I've always done things on my own for the last 15 years.

One advantage is that you don't have to rely on others, they can't let you down...like you were let down for this Saturday.

From what you were saying, if you hadn't found a replacement, you'd have been in trouble.

Not in trouble, I would have managed, but maybe I am a little too used to it now. But hell, why shouldn't I be? Seems no reason to struggle and make do if you don't have to does there?

It's also worth pointing out that having a roadie (or indeed a "helper") is a huge huge selling point for me, particularly weddings. One of the concerns I often get is "what happens if you need to go to the toilet" or "what if something happens". Having someone else with you who can easily pop another track on or take requests or do the running for you when required, it put a lot of clients at ease. Nice for them to know that there will always be someone there to look after them and their guests

[Paul James Promotions]

One of the concerns I often get is "what happens if you need to go to the toilet" or "what if something happens".

There's always the Abba megamix :p :D

[rob1963]

She had booked a chocolate fountain from another local company for her wedding on Saturday. Came home and found a message on her answerphone from the company saying something like:

"Just called to let you know that I have to go into hospital so I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to your wedding on Saturday"


Going back to the original thread, emergencies & sudden illnesses cannot be avoided.

However, I don't agree with the way the original company dealt with the situation.

To say "I have to go into hospital so I'm not sure if I'll be able to make your wedding on Saturday" will only have one effect...to freak out the bride & make her start worrying big time, which is the last thing she needs. The fact that she can't get hold of them makes it even worse.

What I think they SHOULD have done was to leave a message saying something like "I have to go into hospital, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to your wedding on Saturday. I'm extremely sorry about this, but to to be on the safe side I'm reluctantly going to cancel the contract, and will send you a full refund when I'm out of hospital"

The bride then knows where she stands, and still has nearly a week to find an alternative supplier without being caused unnecessary additional worry.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I agree that it may make things easier but I have ALWAYS done things on my own and that's the way I will keep doing things. I don't have to worry about anything or anyone else letting me down last minute and I don't have to rely on the help.

It's not hard setting up a disco in quick time, well not for me anyway so I am happy to continue as I am although I DO understand why some like the idea.

...and as you say, there's always the Abba megamix or Blue Monday, I am the ressurection, Tainted Love 12" if I need a 'tinkle' or worse!

[rob1963]

There's always the Abba megamix :p :D

...or Blue Monday!

:)

EDIT: Wow, Shakermaker...I typed that before I saw YOU'D typed it. I must be psychic!

[Ricesnaps]

...or Blue Monday!

:)

EDIT: Wow, Shakermaker...I typed that before I saw YOU'D typed it. I must be psychic!

Or indeed track 2 on mastermix 100 if the mood takes you.

I do apreciate that everyone does things there way, life would be rather dull if we didn't. But equally this forum has always been about sharing the things that make things easier, better or more successful for each of us.

As I am sure you will all be told next week after my emergency help has done Saturday with me, I am generally not the most organised and I am an absolute perfectionist when it comes to rigging (which is why my little wires trauma made me so mad last week - just about to pop into town for some extra velcro for this weekend), so the extra help really does make a difference. Most of my gigs these days are in those posh and very old venues that were built before car access, so takes ages to lug the gear there. And I have already pointed out what a huge selling point it is in my current target audience. Well worth the money I pay him!

[theoloyla]

Not in trouble, I would have managed, but maybe I am a little too used to it now. But hell, why shouldn't I be? Seems no reason to struggle and make do if you don't have to does there?

It's also worth pointing out that having a roadie (or indeed a "helper") is a huge huge selling point for me, particularly weddings. One of the concerns I often get is "what happens if you need to go to the toilet" or "what if something happens". Having someone else with you who can easily pop another track on or take requests or do the running for you when required, it put a lot of clients at ease. Nice for them to know that there will always be someone there to look after them and their guests
I agree with you Ricey I have done loads of gigs on my own over the years but it is easier, more enjoyable and safer to have an assistant; however, in another thread on background music you said that you leave the disco and wander off whilst Rob 1963 said he (like me) doesnt like leaving his gear unattended. Your selling points to the customer would rather indicate that you too leave a roady there. Is this the case? I have often found that when I have wandered off they suddenly want to say grace or make an announcement or turn it up/turn it down/change the music/turn the lights on or off etc.; so if I am on my own I seldom wander far from the set up (like Rob I tend to sit down behind the equipment rather than look like a dummy) otherwise If I'm not there then Jan is.
PS I sleep with my roady.