Have I priced myself out of the market?

[Penfold42]

Price...this goes round and round like a spinning top.

Just got my listing in YP this month and have had 4 enquires in the last week.
Conversation goes -

'Can you do x for 4 hours on (whatever date)?'
'Yes'
'What do you charge?'
'£50 set up - £25 per hour or part of.'
'OK - thanks...bye'
'Bye'

Have I priced myself out of the market - I think this is what I'm worth?
And I think I'm cheap.....
Now I'm to this new but this is what I've accounted for the first two years. Making a 5 hour gig £175...I think this is good.

Customer the other day excepted the price.....didn't bat an eyelid.

However went to the local disco shop looking for DMX unit (Will want my lights to behave :D ) and he said 'Max anyone has a gig in this town is £150'

Question is - Do I lower price or stick to my guns?
I know where I want to be....it's how I get there, reduce price?...:)
I don't want to turn down jobs....who does.

I have plans - I'm already looking at upgrading my eqipment and that comes at a price..

Any comments welcome.

[Sapphire Disco]

YP waste of time & money.

[Vectis]

YP should be renamed "Yo - Pikeys!"

You'll only get tyre-kickers out of that rag.

From your transcript of your conversation it doesn't sound like you're doing much selling! Try getting them hooked with a few questions and suggestions and make it impossible for them to refuse your quote (unless it's silly!) when you eventually get to it. Tell them how, for a small deposit, you'll hold the date just for them etc. etc.. Make 'em feel important and cared for!

[Dragonfly]

Stick to your guns ...... you can get the money you want and deserve you just have to market yourself more

if your conversations are

"how much for a disco"

"£150"

then as said you are not selling what you do and probably not coming across too enthusiastic to a prospective customer.

yellow pages really is for bottom end gigs though i had one

"im looking for a disco for my wedding and only really want to spend £1000 from start to finish"

now this figure is possible if you have favours to call in.
work for the money mate its worth it in the end im now getting harder gigs in fairness but im getting paid more for them no one who has seen me at a gig even asks me for a price when they call just we saw you at xxx are you available to do our xxx on xxx

yes no problem at all

great can you please send us a booking pack out. and ive only ever had one not come back.

obviously the conversation is in more depth than this with more details / questions asked but rarely is a price asked for until i volunteer one at the end by which time its usually largely irrelavent.

[rob1963]

Price...this goes round and round like a spinning top.

Just got my listing in YP this month and have had 4 enquires in the last week.
Conversation goes -

'Can you do x for 4 hours on (whatever date)?'
'Yes'
'What do you charge?'
'£50 set up - £25 per hour or part of.'
'OK - thanks...bye'
'Bye'

Have I priced myself out of the market - I think this is what I'm worth?
And I think I'm cheap.....
Now I'm to this new but this is what I've accounted for the first two years. Making a 5 hour gig £175...I think this is good.

Customer the other day excepted the price.....didn't bat an eyelid.

However went to the local disco shop looking for DMX unit (Will want my lights to behave :D ) and he said 'Max anyone has a gig in this town is £150'

Question is - Do I lower price or stick to my guns?
I know where I want to be....it's how I get there, reduce price?...:)
I don't want to turn down jobs....who does.

I have plans - I'm already looking at upgrading my eqipment and that comes at a price..

Any comments welcome.

Hiya big chief!

Firstly, I wouldn't waste your money advertising in Yellow Pages. Most people here seem to say that it might have been fine 5 or 10 years ago, but not any more. Spend your advertising budget getting yourself onto as many online directories as possible.

As far as prices go, your fee sounds very reasonable to me...although it's fair to say that prices vary a lot in different areas of the country. If I was you, I'd email or phone about a dozen discos in your area for quotes, then work out the average, compare that to what YOU charge, and take things from there.

Apart from that, stick to your guns. Do you REALLY want the :Rob James: quality work?

[Dragonfly]

penmare is that In lincon that people only pay £150?

[Penfold42]

As far as prices go, your fee sounds very reasonable to me...although it's fair to say that prices vary a lot in different areas of the country. If I was you, I'd email or phone about a dozen discos in your area for quotes, then work out the average, compare that to what YOU charge, and take things from there.

Thanks Rob...do you mind Rob...:rolleyes:

I don't want to ring round and i don't want to waste other people's time, as this is what I feel I'm worth....
I have plans where I what to be in 3 years and it does not include visting every plop hole....:p
I would like to aim myself at the top end of the market and take it from there...Now you may think that's a bit arrogant but that's the way I am....:)

[Penfold42]

penmare is that In lincon that people only pay £150?

Yes it my friend.


YP should be renamed "Yo - Pikeys!"

You'll only get tyre-kickers out of that rag.

From your transcript of your conversation it doesn't sound like you're doing much selling! Try getting them hooked with a few questions and suggestions and make it impossible for them to refuse your quote (unless it's silly!) when you eventually get to it. Tell them how, for a small deposit, you'll hold the date just for them etc. etc.. Make 'em feel important and cared for!

Good point.....:)


Stick to your guns ...... you can get the money you want and deserve you just have to market yourself more

if your conversations are

"how much for a disco"

"£150"

then as said you are not selling what you do and probably not coming across too enthusiastic to a prospective customer.

yellow pages really is for bottom end gigs though i had one

"im looking for a disco for my wedding and only really want to spend £1000 from start to finish"

now this figure is possible if you have favours to call in.
work for the money mate its worth it in the end im now getting harder gigs in fairness but im getting paid more for them no one who has seen me at a gig even asks me for a price when they call just we saw you at xxx are you available to do our xxx on xxx

yes no problem at all

great can you please send us a booking pack out. and ive only ever had one not come back.

obviously the conversation is in more depth than this with more details / questions asked but rarely is a price asked for until i volunteer one at the end by which time its usually largely irrelavent.

Food for thought...thanks.

[Dragonfly]

wonder how the poor chap would explain my 7.30pm - midnight £300 wedding there 2 weeks ago then?

Dont believe everything you hear especially not in Lincolnshire lol. you can get the money you want if you market right and to the right people. dont bother with toilet yp. ive saved 1000 quid this year by not going with them i plan to find 2 or 3 well publicized large wedding fayres to go to locally and actually meet the people that want my services.

[rob1963]

Thanks Rob...do you mind Rob...:rolleyes:

I don't want to ring round and i don't want to waste other people's time, as this is what I feel I'm worth....
I have plans where I what to be in 3 years and it does not include visting every plop hole....:p
I would like to aim myself at the top end of the market and take it from there...Now you may think that's a bit arrogant but that's the way I am....:)

I don't mind Rob, as that's my name :p

...and I don't think you're arrogant - just setting your sights high, and there's nothing wrong with that!

[Dragonfly]

I don't mind Rob, as that's my name :p

...and I don't think you're arrogant - just setting your sights high, and there's nothing wrong with that!

Robs polite I called him toilet man on the other thread :D

[rob1963]

Robs polite I called him toilet man on the other thread :D

:lol:

[Penfold42]

Thanks for the kind comment's....

Sorry I have a lot of competition where I am - 5 jocks in 3 miles...so it's tough...:bang:

The one good saving grace...I KNOW I'M BETTER....big head I know...but this 9 to 5 has got to go....:)

[DMX Will]

I agree with whats been said. Don't give them a quote like £50 + £25/hour. You also don't want to say £50 for setup in my opinion.

Ask them the 4 standard questions:

Date
Place
Times
Type of Event

This way you can set yourself up in advance with a pricing scheme (like you have now).

If the venue is more than 10 miles from you, you might like to add £10, if it's more than 20 miles, £20 etc.

If it's a wedding, you might want your "standard fee (i.e. setup fee) to be £75 instead of £100 too.

Then if Joe Bloggs calls up saying "how much" ask them the four questions, feed them some bait along the lines of you need to take some event details to get an exact quote just for them. Then in your head add up that a 4 hour disco is £100 + your "set up fee" and then you can say "from the information you've provided....it's £150". Now if you want to be clever, you could add maybe £20 ontop of your fee, and then say to them, if you book today (including call back) you'll give them £20 off. £20 off is alot of money to some people, and they'll thank you for it. Despite the fact you havent!

And at the end of the day, they're unlikely to call back after that day if they haven't snapped you up on the quote that day, so nothing lost by telling them it's more expensive than it actually is.

[Dragonfly]

Thanks for the kind comment's....

Sorry I have a lot of competition where I am - 5 jocks in 3 miles...so it's tough...:bang:

The one good saving grace...I KNOW I'M BETTER....big head I know...but this 9 to 5 has got to go....:)

14 for me chap and theyre the ones that advertise, at my old house there was 2 down the next street :D :D

[mikeee]

I really, really want to answer this - with fire and brimstone, but I think I will sleep on it, then I'll rip you another A'ole. Geez guys

[Penfold42]

Ask them the 4 standard questions:

Date
Place
Times
Type of Event

Like that..give that a wirl...thanks Will


14 for me chap and theyre the ones that advertise, at my old house there was 2 down the next street :D :D

14...:eek: how do you compete.......:confused: advertising?

[Penfold42]

I really, really want to answer this - with fire and brimstone, but I think I will sleep on it, then I'll rip you another A'ole. Geez guys

Hi Mikeee...can't leave like that....one jock to other....;)

[PropellerHeadCase]

Conversation goes -

'Can you do x for 4 hours on (whatever date)?'
'Yes'
'What do you charge?'
'£50 set up - £25 per hour or part of.'
'OK - thanks...bye'
'Bye'


Simple answer, partially covered already, don't break it down like that.

Engage them in conversation about their event, find out what you need to know about where, when, who, etc. Tell them what you can do, and try to get your onfo pack out to them, e.g.

"How much are you?"
"Can I send you my information pack, it has prices, references, and a music list, [insert more here]?"
"Yes, thanks."

Or they'll say no and just ask for your price. Chances are if they only care about price you're probably too expensive, but cheap gigs are often troublesome gigs.

[CRAZY K]

penmare is that In lincon that people only pay £150?

Two suggestions==

ONE Your stuck with YP for a year so make the best of the enquiries you can using ideas like Propeller Head Case, people like anything thats "free" including a brochure, pack and ---Music List---crikey how long is that :eek:

Then again if I had a pound for every brochure and quote I used to send out years ago that didnt book me I would be very happy. Its a numbers game.

Offer testimonials or recommendations ( Look away now Rice )

I mean phone numbers from existing happy customers, NOT SOME LETTER THAT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY YOUR RELATIVES.

Tonight ( Look away now Rice ) some people are coming to "assess" me at my gig to see if im good enough for their Wedding Reception--as it happens the B and G tonight did the same--what you see is what you get:D Ill have to be on top form tonight--yee ha!

I do it all the time, the fact that you are prepared to do this often gives people more confidence in you.

TWO Travel --get out a bit more---by that I mean outside your area if prices are low--of course as Dragonfly says what kind of gig is the £150 relating to--possibly ones that will never move you on towards better work.

I travel away from my area 95 per cent of the time because theres no work for what I do and rubbish money if there is--by a huge coincidence im working down the road tonight for decent money--the only local booking thats well paid for years!

Be prepared to travel to areas where people are more likely to pay what you want to charge--I agree you can "sell" yourself locally but theres still a lot of people who have a "mental budget" sounds like most of them are in Lincoln.

I dont mean driving to London---but as Dragonfly has just demonstrated--he worked in Lincoln for a decent fee --he lives in Derby.

Good luck with it, one other thing-- pictures on your website didnt have any Weddings, Dinner Dances etc--if poss get that on your site --im sure it would help if thats the market your aiming for--

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

Meant to add...

By engaging in conversation with a stranger on the 'phone it's incredibly easy to assess which "end of the market" they're looking for. For example, a significant proportion of my (mainly) wedding clients are mainland based folk who came to the IoW on holiday and think it will be incredibly romantic to get married here. So they hire a bus, take over a posh hotel for the weekend, and ferry all their nearest & dearest over at ridiculous expense. These folks obviously want top-notch and are willing to pay for it.

On the other hand, pikeys are dead giveaways. For instance, they're only really interested in price (they go on about how much everything's costing), or they're booking the local working mens club, or they really only want "something simple" and are happy for you to turn up and set up at 7pm etc. etc. - obviously ploys to keep the cost down.

If I can't tell - ie. I get a middle-of-the-road enquiry - I'll quite often spin the tables and explain that we have three levels of service depending on their requirements and outright ask them what sort of budget they had in mind "so that I can suggest the most appropriate package". Works most times! When they come back and say 'well my mate reckons I can get a disco for x' THEN you can decide whether to dust off the fuzz lights or suddenly remember that you're busy that night!

[Candybeatdiscos]

When they come back and say 'well my mate reckons I can get a disco for x' THEN you can decide whether to dust off the fuzz lights or suddenly remember that you're busy that night!

If someone comes back to me and says that - i tell them that i cannot compete on price but i can compete on quality - if that dont work, then i say its up to you if you want to shop at poundstretchers or marks & spencers...

At end of day mate I charge a higher price than anyone in my area, 30 jocks that advertise within a 10 mile radius, but i get the work, maybe not every weekend but i get enough, i am new so i am taking my time, have only advertised in YP (worst mistake) and online. I am sowly getting there but i have stuck to my guns

I too am starting to do local and natioal fayres in order to get better work, but like someone else said, i now ask, ok whats your budget and i will try and work round that.

[wensleydale]

are you happy with the amount of work you do, or would you prefer to get more at a lower price?

don't worry about what others are doing- just look at your situation.

[Penfold42]

are you happy with the amount of work you do, or would you prefer to get more at a lower price?

don't worry about what others are doing- just look at your situation.

I have had 2 gig's per month now from April..so that makes it an average of...2 per month...:D yes I would like more but not at the lower price.

I made a decision when starting this that I would not lower my prices unless there was something in it for me or it had to be a good friend....family is different.

My situation is fine I have a full time job that pay's well but that's it. What I would like to do is run this enough so I could be able to take a part time job and do this which I enjoy.

So to answer your question - yes I have enough work but would like more....I just get a kick out of doing it....from the booking to seeing the client, to setting up and playing...the whole package from start to finish, I enjoy....maybe because it's new, I don't know...ask me again in a year.:rolleyes:

[Dragonfly]

Penmare stick with it it will take time mate seriously when I upped my prices on the advice of a very experienced dj i had no conversions from enquiry to booking for at least 2 months ......at least........ i absolutely toileted myself....

but slowly and surely i started to think about what i was doing and the bookings came in last year i had 1.5 weekends off this year i have taken a few more where ive just not taken any bookings purposely.

the money is there i really believe anywhere if you market correctly and sell correctly.

fair play to those guys that go out cheap for lots of work but i personally have made a connection with lower paid gigs and being in a room full of people with a combined iq of a small lesser spotted hebridean chaffinch.

im now a father of two and want to as much as possible work in as safer an environment as possible and if that means turning down 120 at the last minute on an available night ...... ill stay in an watch the disney channel with the kids thanks very much.

[PropellerHeadCase]

i personally have made a connection with lower paid gigs and being in a room full of people with a combined iq of a small lesser spotted hebridean chaffinch.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Oh, Dude, THAT is PRICELESS!

[PropellerHeadCase]

Tonight ( Look away now Rice ) some people are coming to "assess" me at my gig to see if im good enough for their Wedding Reception--as it happens the B and G tonight did the same--what you see is what you get:D

I honestly think that having people come to assess you can seriously backfire when you're a DJ - for a more performance-based show such as yours I can see the value in it, just not for DJing, if only because we change the repertoire to suit the crowd.

[Penfold42]

Penmare stick with it it will take time mate seriously when I upped my prices on the advice of a very experienced dj i had no conversions from enquiry to booking for at least 2 months ......at least........ i absolutely toileted myself....

but slowly and surely i started to think about what i was doing and the bookings came in last year i had 1.5 weekends off this year i have taken a few more where ive just not taken any bookings purposely.

the money is there i really believe anywhere if you market correctly and sell correctly.

fair play to those guys that go out cheap for lots of work but i personally have made a connection with lower paid gigs and being in a room full of people with a combined iq of a small lesser spotted hebridean chaffinch.

im now a father of two and want to as much as possible work in as safer an environment as possible and if that means turning down 120 at the last minute on an available night ...... ill stay in an watch the disney channel with the kids thanks very much.

Thanks for the kind comments Dave...hope you don't mind that.

I am going to stick with it ....as said before this 9 to 5 has got to go...:)

[CRAZY K]

I honestly think that having people come to assess you can seriously backfire when you're a DJ - for a more performance-based show such as yours I can see the value in it, just not for DJing, if only because we change the repertoire to suit the crowd.

As it happens they didnt turn up=probably cant afford me :D

By the way the man supplying the Rodeo Bull tonight at my gig charges £100 per hour.

So theres more food for thought in relation to charging :D :D :D

CRAZY K

[Penfold42]

By the way the man supplying the Rodeo Bull tonight at my gig charges £100 per hour.

What no bull :Censored: to clear up.....:D
Bargain....

[CRAZY K]

What no bull :Censored: to clear up.....:D
Bargain....

Not that I noticed--but these Rodeo Bull guys are CLEANING UP--

I mean money wise--bloke doing it last night was booked for about 6 over the weekend:eek:

Should I buy one eh?

Will it fit on the Roof Rack:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yee ha!


CRAZY K

[Penfold42]

Ask them the 4 standard questions:

Date
Place
Times
Type of Event





Engage them in conversation about their event, find out what you need to know about where, when, who, etc. Tell them what you can do

That works a treat.....Had a very nice lady ring me this morning to ask if I was available to do a wedding.

So gave her the Rudyard Kipling - I think it's this chap who said all you need to do is ask - What, Why, Where, Who and When - that should get you where you need to be.......

But it worked.....got the booking and not even a bat of an eyelid about price...

Also asked how did she get my number? Business card from a friend...
It turns out that where she get her hair cut, the lady there recommended me as she was at the last minute gig I had a few weeks ago......and she also had booked this 'Great DJ' to do her wedding and has now changed her mind......

She's now chasing the deposit back...don't know how she will get on with that though - but no contract was signed?

Thanks people.

[rob1963]

Nice one, Big chief!

:)

[CRAZY K]

That works a treat.....Had a very nice lady ring me this morning to ask if I was available to do a wedding.

So gave her the Rudyard Kipling - I think it's this chap who said all you need to do is ask - What, Why, Where, Who and When - that should get you where you need to be.......

But it worked.....got the booking and not even a bat of an eyelid about price...

Also asked how did she get my number? Business card from a friend...
It turns out that where she get her hair cut, the lady there recommended me as she was at the last minute gig I had a few weeks ago......and she also had booked this 'Great DJ' to do her wedding and has now changed her mind......

She's now chasing the deposit back...don't know how she will get on with that though - but no contract was signed?

Thanks people.

Depends on whether its a deposit or a non refundable booking fee.

Smart people charge the latter:D

Someone cancelled a booking of mine after they paid the non refundable booking fee--they said-I know its non refundable but can you refund it?

NO! Thats what it says on the tin:D

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

Depends on whether its a deposit or a non refundable booking fee.

Smart people charge the latter:D

Someone cancelled a booking of mine after they paid the non refundable booking fee--they said-I know its non refundable but can you refund it?

NO! Thats what it says on the tin:D

CRAZY K

Errrr...can't a deposit ALSO be non-refundable if you state that in your terms & conditions?

What's the difference?

:confused:

[CRAZY K]

Errrr...can't a deposit ALSO be non-refundable if you state that in your terms & conditions?

What's the difference?

:confused:

This has been discussed on here before Rob--as I understand things a deposit legally is a grey area--

However a booking fee which does not depend on the booking going ahead ---in other words its an admin fee for setting up the arrangement and ALSO of course turning away other potential customers---which is deductable from the total fee does not have to be returned because its not dependant on the booking going ahead and is a cost you have incurred as a business AND CANNOT GET BACK YOURSELF--unless you like working for nothing:D

How much do Solicitors charge to send a letter:eek:

As I mentioned someone recently I believe tried to cancel me on spurious grounds-- we didnt realise the hall wasnt available--yeah sure ;)

Being a straight kinda guy--I did say if they booked again within 12 months I would offset the booking fee--repeating of course that next year my rates will go up with REAL inflation i.e. about 10 per cent.--not the Fairytale Government figure of 3 per cent.

In fact they probably got another quote---tough luck I turned away other work.

Rather than get involved with arguments about deposits being returnable---charge a booking fee--- its simple and if people dont agree--tell em its your standard practice--take it or leave it.

No one has ever queried it with me.

HTH

Regards

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

This has been discussed on here before Rob--as I understand things a deposit legally is a grey area--

However a booking fee which does not depend on the booking going ahead ---in other words its an admin fee for setting up the arrangement and ALSO of course turning away other potential customers---which is deductable from the total fee does not have to be returned because its not dependant on the booking going ahead and is a cost you have incurred as a business AND CANNOT GET BACK YOURSELF--unless you like working for nothing:D

How much do Solicitors charge to send a letter:eek:

As I mentioned someone recently I believe tried to cancel me on spurious grounds-- we didnt realise the hall wasnt available--yeah sure ;)

Being a straight kinda guy--I did say if they booked again within 12 months I would offset the booking fee--repeating of course that next year my rates will go up with REAL inflation i.e. about 10 per cent.--not the Fairytale Government figure of 3 per cent.

In fact they probably got another quote---tough luck I turned away other work.

Rather than get involved with arguments about deposits being returnable---charge a booking fee--- its simple and if people dont agree--tell em its your standard practice--take it or leave it.

No one has ever queried it with me.

HTH

Regards

CRAZY K

Hi Crazy,

The previous discussion must have been before I became a member.

Interesting reading.

I'm no legal expert, but I find it hard to believe that a payment can be treated differently purely based on what you decide to CALL it (i.e. a deposit or a booking fee).

I'll have to try and find the original thread & read up on it!

I've always charged a £50 non-refundable deposit. It's only ever happened once, but in the event of a cancellation I don't return the deposit...although I DO hold it against any future booking at any time...which I think is more than fair.

:)

[Penfold42]

This has been discussed on here before Rob--as I understand things a deposit legally is a grey area--

However a booking fee which does not depend on the booking going ahead ---in other words its an admin fee for setting up the arrangement and ALSO of course turning away other potential customers---which is deductable from the total fee does not have to be returned because its not dependant on the booking going ahead and is a cost you have incurred as a business AND CANNOT GET BACK YOURSELF--unless you like working for nothing:D

How much do Solicitors charge to send a letter:eek:

As I mentioned someone recently I believe tried to cancel me on spurious grounds-- we didnt realise the hall wasnt available--yeah sure ;)

Being a straight kinda guy--I did say if they booked again within 12 months I would offset the booking fee--repeating of course that next year my rates will go up with REAL inflation i.e. about 10 per cent.--not the Fairytale Government figure of 3 per cent.

In fact they probably got another quote---tough luck I turned away other work.

Rather than get involved with arguments about deposits being returnable---charge a booking fee--- its simple and if people dont agree--tell em its your standard practice--take it or leave it.

No one has ever queried it with me.

HTH

Regards

CRAZY K

Wow.....that takes care of that...and I thought this forum was just to talk about lights and music......:confused:

I'm now 1/2 way to being a lawyer.......:D

I think the main reason she's come to me is because she has heard what this other DJ...sorry 'Cowboy'...I think that's a fair discription :p made of somebody's 'one big day' and got cold feet...that's good because I get the benefit.

I'm hoping he's not too switched on to give the lady her money back but can't really see that....anyway it's not my fight but will try to assist in getting it back....So I've heard Crazy K response for keeping the deposit does anyone want to throw in suggestion's to give it back?

[CRAZY K]

Wow.....that takes care of that...and I thought this forum was just to talk about lights and music......:confused:

I'm now 1/2 way to being a lawyer.......:D

I think the main reason she's come to me is because she has heard what this other DJ...sorry 'Cowboy'...I think that's a fair discription :p made of somebody's 'one big day' and got cold feet...that's good because I get the benefit.

I'm hoping he's not too switched on to give the lady her money back but can't really see that....anyway it's not my fight but will try to assist in getting it back....So I've heard Crazy K response for keeping the deposit does anyone want to throw in suggestion's to give it back?

Have a go by all means, THATS MY UNDERSTANDING--MAY NOT BE CORRECT.

Personally I think theres a case to be made that if as a DJ you reserve a date you turn away other customers who would happily book you--then you may end up with NO GIG at all---:eek:

People will mess you around because they dont understand how a business operates--it happens all day long here:D

Angela ( Corabar ) was the expert on this but not posting presently.

Maybe Steve will know---are you sober yet Steve:D

:beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :

CRAZY K

[Penfold42]

Have a go by all means, THATS MY UNDERSTANDING--MAY NOT BE CORRECT.

Personally I think theres a case to be made that if as a DJ you reserve a date you turn away other customers who would happily book you--then you may end up with NO GIG at all---:eek:

People will mess you around because they dont understand how a business operates--it happens all day long here:D

Angela ( Corabar ) was the expert on this but not posting presently.

Maybe Steve will know---are you sober yet Steve:D

:beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :beer1: :

CRAZY K

I think what you said was perfectly fine and well put.

Here's a spin - what if the person you were hiring turned out to be un-trustworthy.....'I have hear you don't turn up?'

She has the proof.......is that not a good enough standing?

[PropellerHeadCase]

I'm no legal expert, but I find it hard to believe that a payment can be treated differently purely based on what you decide to CALL it (i.e. a deposit or a booking fee).

Oh c'mon, the law is ALL about how you word things - look at all the false advertising cases based on misrepresentative use of the words 'light' or 'slim'. And what's the difference between an unrequited admirer and a stalker? Spin, mate, spin.

[BeerFunk]

Oh c'mon, the law is ALL about how you word things - look at all the false advertising cases based on misrepresentative use of the words 'light' or 'slim'. And what's the difference between an unrequited admirer and a stalker? Spin, mate, spin.

Yes, I'd have to agree with you on that! Unless something is set in stone, it can be argued either way by the best legal team!

[rob1963]

Oh c'mon, the law is ALL about how you word things - look at all the false advertising cases based on misrepresentative use of the words 'light' or 'slim'. And what's the difference between an unrequited admirer and a stalker? Spin, mate, spin.


Yes, I'd have to agree with you on that! Unless something is set in stone, it can be argued either way by the best legal team!

In which case it makes no difference whether you call the initial payment a deposit or a booking fee!

[BeerFunk]

In which case it makes no difference whether you call the initial payment a deposit or a booking fee!
Well, yes! I think Angela (Corabar Entertainment) said before that a 'deposit' is not refundable by law, so that seems like an acceptable term to use.

If you state that it is non-refundable in the contract, you will be covered! (I accept no responsibility, should someone find this statement is not true! :D)

[Dragonfly]

"Calling the initial amount you take a 'deposit' or a 'booking fee' will not automatically make it refundable or non-refundable... it's one of those urban myths that I keep trying to dispell! It has arisen out of how the courts may interpret the phrase if you don't have T&Cs which properly define how the money is to be treated.

You need to make sure that you have details in your terms and conditions as to what will happen to that money (whatever you call it) in the event of cancellation, etc"

I found this posted by Angela (Corabar Entertainment) I hope it may help sorry for cross posting threads ladies and gentlemen of the admin but I felt it relavent hope it helps. A little off topic but may help get things back on track?

[rob1963]

I found this posted by Angela (Corabar Entertainment) I hope it may help sorry for cross posting threads ladies and gentlemen of the admin but I felt it relavent hope it helps. A little off topic but may help get things back on track?

Thanks for the info, Dragonfly.

An earlier post had seemed to suggest that the initial payment could be treated differently based purely on what you decided to call it...which I couldn't really understand.

I agree that if your t & c clearly state what happens to this payment in the event of a cancellation, then there should be no problem...regardless of whether you call it a booking fee, deposit, advance payment or anything else.

:)

[CRAZY K]

I found this posted by Angela (Corabar Entertainment) I hope it may help sorry for cross posting threads ladies and gentlemen of the admin but I felt it relavent hope it helps. A little off topic but may help get things back on track?

Well done Dave-I must say following the last discussion I changed my Contracts to Non refundable Booking Fee and had to tell someone recently I wasnt going to refund anything because its "non refundable"--see Angelas point.

Bear in mind some organisations like MFI Kitchens ( dealt with them at Xmas) state in their T and C they have a 7 day cooling off period in which they refund deposits.

For entertainers using a booking fee/deposit system it usually takes that long for the client to send the money through with a signed contract, so if they cool off the idea they just dont send paperwork through.

I respect Angelas advice, personally I feel ( rightly or wrongly) that if its a Fee for work done to date---i.e. the admin and time used to set up the gig send out paperwork etc. then I could easily justify keeping it on the grounds that Ive done the work, incurred cost and time securing the clients booking so they can have peace of mind and definitely have their Entertainment---so why would anyone expect to get it back?

A deposit is I feel personally a much greyer area---:eek:

Just my view and as Angela said--a matter for a Court to decide

Finally, SIZE WOULD PROBABLY MATTER as a 50 per cent deposit could probably not be justified on grounds of admin ( in my opinion ) but a nominal Non refundable Booking Fee of say £50 which is what we use could be.

"Non Refundable in any circumstances" may be the words to use.

CRAZY K

[Penfold42]

Some good point's here.....got to say it's got me lookng at the wording I use...


Finally, SIZE WOULD PROBABLY MATTER as a 50 per cent deposit could probably not be justified on grounds of admin ( in my opinion ) but a nominal Non refundable Booking Fee of say £50 which is what we use could be.

"Non Refundable in any circumstances" may be the words to use.


A very good point...but if have taken the booking and scheduled it in, they then cancelled (these happen right at the last minute) you have turned away work are you not going to be out of pocket....Instead of getting your fee you get £50 plus a night in...are you not going to feel out of pocket and therefore would ask more deposit?

Any way thanks for all the reply's....a lot to digest here and will not know how this will effect me until put to the test....Thanks.:)

[simongreen.dj]

Hi guys, I've been off the forum for a while but wanted to chip in my thoughts on this one. I recently changed the way i respond to enquirys. Instead of it's £175 for the night i've been saying that it's £175 for myself to DJ along with all of the PA equipment and lighting for tyhe night as well as a roadie to help set it all up. Started to get a different reaction to this as it males people realise just what they're getting for there money.

Also, remember reading a post on here ages ago where someone commented that a merquee hire company could charge £150 for an extra portaloo so don't sell yourself short guys...!!

[CRAZY K]

Some good point's here.....got to say it's got me lookng at the wording I use...



A very good point...but if have taken the booking and scheduled it in, they then cancelled (these happen right at the last minute) you have turned away work are you not going to be out of pocket....Instead of getting your fee you get £50 plus a night in...are you not going to feel out of pocket and therefore would ask more deposit?

Any way thanks for all the reply's....a lot to digest here and will not know how this will effect me until put to the test....Thanks.:)

Oh dear!

Obviously you dont have a much needed CANCELLATION CLAUSE.

In the event of Cancellation for ANY reason less than xxx days before the event the WHOLE FEE IS PAYABLE less any upfront payments already made.

30 DAYS CANCELLATION IS PRETTY COMMON, although in reality I probably cant get replacement work in 30 days.

Notice I dont use the D word :D

Better add that to the list of things to do:D

regards

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

I recently changed the way i respond to enquirys. Instead of it's £175 for the night i've been saying that it's £175 for myself to DJ along with all of the PA equipment and lighting for the night as well as a roadie to help set it all up. Started to get a different reaction to this as it males people realise just what they're getting for there money.


Hi Simon,

Interesting ideas there, and your clients response somewhat surprises me.

I'd have thought it would make little difference if you explain the price the way you do.

After all, surely they EXPECT the price to include a DJ, PA equipment & lighting.

As for whether the price includes a roadie to help set up the equipment, I'd suggest that they couldn't care less whether there is a roadie or not. All that matters to them is that the disco is ready to start on time, and they expect you to allow enough time to set up the gear...whether you have a roadie or not.

I could be completely wrong...it's just my own opinion.

:)

[Penfold42]

Oh dear!

Obviously you dont have a much needed CANCELLATION CLAUSE.

In the event of Cancellation for ANY reason less than xxx days before the event the WHOLE FEE IS PAYABLE less any upfront payments already made.

30 DAYS CANCELLATION IS PRETTY COMMON, although in reality I probably cant get replacement work in 30 days.

Notice I dont use the D word :D

Better add that to the list of things to do:D

regards

CRAZY K

:Embarassed: :Embarassed: :Embarassed: :Embarassed:

Looks that way....Thanks.

[simongreen.dj]

Hi Simon,

After all, surely they EXPECT the price to include a DJ, PA equipment & lighting.
:)

I think it's the idea of itemising it for them so they realise just what they're getting for their money. You're right that most clients don't think about the pa and lighting side of things but it helps justify the price.

Another way of doinmg it is the "bronze, silver and gold package" approach. I don't use this myself but the DJ i booked for our wedding did and I suited me as it gave me options on both price and what was on offer.

[PropellerHeadCase]

After all, surely they EXPECT the price to include a DJ, PA equipment & lighting.

Most people don't have the faint foggiest what to expect, mate. You take it for granted because it's what you do.

Seriously, how many people make a comment to you about the music when you are clearly in the middle of setting up (and bear in mind they've just walked past the not-yet-working speaker at ear-height, and the music was playing before you arrived)?

How many ask you to do something about the house-lights five minutes after you arrive?

And how many times do we complain about cowboys or amateurs (or whetever the phrase du jour is) turning up with a rubbish to non-existent sound system and no lights?


I'm with Simon, it's the itemising which shows how much equipment is involved which the punter has no clue about (and thus have no idea how long set-up and packdown takes), but I suspect Simon may not have realised that what he is also doing is saying "you are paying for me, and I'm worth it" without sounding arrogant.

[PropellerHeadCase]

Finally, SIZE WOULD PROBABLY MATTER as a 50 per cent deposit could probably not be justified on grounds of admin ( in my opinion ) but a nominal Non refundable Booking Fee of say £50 which is what we use could be.

"Non Refundable in any circumstances" may be the words to use.

CRAZY K

Or you could do what we do, take a larger deposit and advise that only part of it is refundable at all and the rest is ONLY refundable if we get a booking for that date. This strikes a nice balance between trying to chase a payment for a service not rendered due to a late cancellation, and having only a small deposit/booking fee to warm yourself with on a cold gigless night.

[Flex]

Another way of doinmg it is the "bronze, silver and gold package" approach. I don't use this myself but the DJ i booked for our wedding did and I suited me as it gave me options on both price and what was on offer.

One thought on the package approach is that it can be an excellent tool to sell-up your pricing. As with everyone else my YP entry has been about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. However if a customer is phoning around they are naturally going to ask 'how much?' if you then reply with £175. That's it, job done the customer moves on. At no point have you managed to engage with the customer and they will find someone who will quote a lower price. If you consider how many times a member of the public will book a mobile disco in their lifetime, is it any wonder most of them are in the dark. I'm pretty sure that most people actually give very little thought as to what exactly it is they expect for their money. I avoid answering the how much question for as long as possible by asking what it is they are celebrating and what kind of disco they would like. You can usually go through the options then, 'selling them the dream' if you like. This approach will demonstrate that you are professional, concerned about the clients needs and happy to help them organise their celebration. At least at the end you will have managed to get the customer sub-consciously committing to an idea of what the disco should look like on the night. Remember your ABC, Always Be Closing. 'how does that sound?' 'would you like to book that now?' 'would you like me to send out the booking forms?'. If they say I want to check out more prices, ask them if they would like you to give them a bell later and see how they got on. It will give a second bite.

[Dragonfly]

my last piece of marketing advice told me to ditch bronze , silver , gold etc as it confuses the client , what they did tell me to do was do a standard fee ie £200 or whatever and sell optional extras ..... background music mics for speeches etc etc.

the advice I got told me if you start varying the size of show /sound system etc people get confused and don't understand what they are getting ????

however if you engage the client and say well on the information you have given the fee for an evening disco with dj , lighting , sound equipment etc. for a duration of x hours will be £x, but also we can offer things like x , x , and x if you require those services.

[Ricesnaps]

I think it's the idea of itemising it for them so they realise just what they're getting for their money. You're right that most clients don't think about the pa and lighting side of things but it helps justify the price.

Another way of doinmg it is the "bronze, silver and gold package" approach. I don't use this myself but the DJ i booked for our wedding did and I suited me as it gave me options on both price and what was on offer.

Back to my old chestnut. Great idea, list all the gear you are going to supply them with for £300 so they can go down the road and book the next guy who has the same list plus two more lights and only charges £250. Job done!

By the way, how much does a good DJ cost?

[Dragonfly]

the thing you have to realise when itemizing kit for clients is .............. they couldnt actually give a monkeys!

what most want is reliable , experienced well thought out entertainment package that is aimed at them and what they want from their day i get wedding bookings sometimes a year or even 2 in advance yep got one booked for 2009 .... the chances of my kit being the same then as it is now is minimal as i seem to chop and change as often as my trollys.

yes i like to have pictures of my set up on my site not to say hey everyone look what lovely lights ive got but to apply the thought that its clean, neat and professional looking and not from toys r us with barbie written on it.

and ive had 2 clients this week email me back after quotes asking
"are the lights included in the price?"

which is quite nice actually because although i may not have made that fully clear in the quote it does tell me that im not selling my gear to clients.

[Ricesnaps]

the thing you have to realise when itemizing kit for clients is .............. they couldnt actually give a monkeys!

what most want is reliable , experienced well thought out entertainment package that is aimed at them and what they want from their day i get wedding bookings sometimes a year or even 2 in advance yep got one booked for 2009 .... the chances of my kit being the same then as it is now is minimal as i seem to chop and change as often as my trollys.

yes i like to have pictures of my set up on my site not to say hey everyone look what lovely lights ive got but to apply the thought that its clean, neat and professional looking and not from toys r us with barbie written on it.

and ive had 2 clients this week email me back after quotes asking
"are the lights included in the price?"

which is quite nice actually because although i may not have made that fully clear in the quote it does tell me that im not selling my gear to clients.

Dragon,

I think I am trying to go down a very similar path to yours. I'm curious to understand how to do that a little better. I have a "starting" price, but I guess I am just a little unsure how to add on the extra's correctly. I wonder if you could give some examples?

[rob1963]

surely they EXPECT the price to include a DJ, PA equipment & lighting.


Most people don't have the faint foggiest what to expect, mate. You take it for granted because it's what you do.



We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Al.

In my own experience, most clients DO have an idea that a disco includes lights, music & someone to play the music.

Once in every few years I might have someone ask if the price includes lights, but that's very rare, and I've NEVER had a potential client ask if the disco includes a sound system, music or a DJ!

[Flex]

As with everyone else my YP entry has been about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. .

After me dis'ing my yellow pages entry, I have just had two bookings from YP, had a nice chat established what they wanted, good venues, quoted price and bang booked on the spot. In fact one of the customers said they didn't care how much it cost, of course this was after I'd given them a price.

I don't like the idea of the bronze gold blah blah. However If someone is phoning around for quotes without questioning what it is they are getting for their money (experience, service levels, size of rig and quality of the equipment) they clearly haven't thought or are not aware of why one mobile may be charging more than the next. Some customers may just want a sound system and a dj, its perfectly reasonable. Some may want the biggest and best. If the average punter goes to Currys to buy a new big LCD TV, he will be able to pick one up fairly cheaply. But is it HD ready, does it have digital built in, does it have a super duper new thingy-mi-bob? He doesn't know whether he wants these or not. A good sales man will sell up. They wont make bonus by saying 'how much do you want to spend? £500? well there you go that one's £499'. Some customers will be tied to a tight budget some will encouraged to spend more to get a better quality. You might be able to service both types of clients. However every opportunity should be taken to point out the uniqueness of your business and sell these as positives. They may still say its to expensive but at least they wont think your trying to rip them off.

By the way I was using Currys as an example, my experience has been that the reality is somewhat less than inspiring.

[PropellerHeadCase]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Al.

In my own experience, most clients DO have an idea that a disco includes lights, music & someone to play the music.

Once in every few years I might have someone ask if the price includes lights, but that's very rare, and I've NEVER had a potential client ask if the disco includes a sound system, music or a DJ!

What? You're agreeing to disagree with ME now? I thought that was a thing you had going with Matt ;)

On the face it what you're saying is true - but why have I heard of people hiring DJs who turn up with not much more than a large-ish micro-component home-audio solution and a mixer plugged into the A/V ins?

And I have had numerous people ask if the "disco hire" includes music and a DJ (possibly because they've been looking at Jukebox solutions at the same time).

Anyway, my point wasn't so much whether or not the hire included those things sao much as the extent of those things and thus the legitimate set-up time required. I don't believe in itemising every component by make and model, as you know, but giving some indication as to the extent of the equipment does, I think, help people to understand the time it takes you, the person they are hiring, to set up.

[CRAZY K]

What? You're agreeing to disagree with ME now? I thought that was a thing you had going with Matt ;)

On the face it what you're saying is true - but why have I heard of people hiring DJs who turn up with not much more than a large-ish micro-component home-audio solution and a mixer plugged into the A/V ins?

And I have had numerous people ask if the "disco hire" includes music and a DJ (possibly because they've been looking at Jukebox solutions at the same time).

Anyway, my point wasn't so much whether or not the hire included those things sao much as the extent of those things and thus the legitimate set-up time required. I don't believe in itemising every component by make and model, as you know, but giving some indication as to the extent of the equipment does, I think, help people to understand the time it takes you, the person they are hiring, to set up.


You can always give em a clue by saying things like--

I will need a couple of hours to get set up:D

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

What? You're agreeing to disagree with ME now? I thought that was a thing you had going with Matt ;)


Al - you're right - normally I just disagree with Ricesnaps, but I like a bit of variety...so sometimes I pick someone ELSE to disagree with for a change, and this time it happened to be YOU! :p

[PropellerHeadCase]

I'm honoured! :Rob James:

[rob1963]

I'm honoured! [Rob James]

:lol:

[PropellerHeadCase]

You can always give em a clue by saying things like--

I will need a couple of hours to get set up:D

CRAZY K

Which may just mean that you're an arthritic armadillo with a ghetto blaster ;)