LED Par confusion

[Ricesnaps]

Looking at getting some LED PAR 64's - mainly I hope for static applications, so there ability to do sound to light is of secondary importance. I am a little confused as some LED PARS state they are RGB and some don't even tell you how many LED's they have!

For example:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_par_64_alu_poliert.htm

Seems a great price, but does anyone know any more about them? Are they RGB (and does it really matter?). Will a PAR 64 be brighter than a PAR 56 (or just bigger!).

I would like to be able to create almost any colour possible using DMX - will the one listed above do that?

Does nobody use LED PARS?

Thommann seem to also be doing a good deal on the PAR56 version which seems to have more LED's - what's the difference.

Still also keen to understand RGB colour mixing - does the PAR64 I listed have this or will I actually get a brighter and better unit going for the cheaper PAR 56 version?

[rob1963]

Ricesnaps,

Looking at that link, I notice the power is 15 watts...that's HALF what you get with a standard PAR 36!!!

The main thing to remember with LEDs in disco lights is that they're very much like energy saving bulbs in the home...

...they last forever, but they're not as bright as you'd want.

[Ricesnaps]

Ricesnaps,

Looking at that link, I notice the power is 15 watts...that's HALF what you get with a standard PAR 36!!!

The main thing to remember with LEDs in disco lights is that they're very much like energy saving bulbs in the home...

...they last forever, but they're not as bright as you'd want.

And funny, they use considerably less power than a standard light buld - hense the 15 watt. There really isn't a direct comparison I'm afraid (I already realise that!).

What I am more interested in in comparison between different LED units, not a comparison between LED and standard PARS. The required application needs the LED version and I know that a slightly more expensive version does what I want it to do, I was just interested to understand the difference between this unit and others on the market!

For example, practically what's the difference in output between a 150 LED Par 64 and a 183 LED Par 56?

What does RGB mixing mean or do all LED pars have this?

Thanks for you concen though. I will remember to be careful when in rooms with low energy light bulbs

[Paul James Promotions]

Go for the ones with 183 x 10mm LEDs.

[rob1963]

I will remember to be careful when in rooms with low energy light bulbs

They are VERY over-rated.

They cost nearly 10 times what a normal bulb costs, they are too big to go in many standard fittings, they can't be used with dimmers, they take several minutes to reach their full brightness, when they DO reach their full brightness it's still much less than a standard bulb, and finally they use bucket loads of power when you first turn them on - so unless they are on all the time, the overall power saving is almost non-existant.

End of rant! :D

Back on topic...I could be wrong, but I thought that RGB was simply an abbreviation of Red Green Blue.

I'm interested to know your reasons for choosing a LED par can rather than a standard one...which would be cheaper & brighter.

[Ricesnaps]

Go for the ones with 183 x 10mm LEDs.

Thanks for that Jamie, I take it these are the PAR 56 units from Thommann? They are at a crazy price right now. Might even have 4!

Would you say that that LED / size recomendation would be suitable for uplighting a venue wall?

[Ricesnaps]

They are VERY over-rated.

They cost nearly 10 times what a normal bulb costs, they are too big to go in many standard fittings, they can't be used with dimmers, they take several minutes to reach their full brightness, when they DO reach their full brightness it's still much less than a standard bulb, and finally they use bucket loads of power when you first turn them on - so unless they are on all the time, the overall power saving is almost non-existant.

End of rant! :D

and it costs £30 a year to leave a fluoresent tube on, but strangely, the old wifes tale about it costing as much to turn a tube on and off as to run it for an hour is toilet.

I would suggest you are grossly missinformed about the energy saving light bulbs and some research might be in order. However I can't prove or demonstrate that myself, so I will refrain from naming and shaming you until I have more background information

[rob1963]

I would suggest you are grossly missinformed about the energy saving light bulbs and some research might be in order. However I can't prove or demonstrate that myself, so I will refrain from naming and shaming you until I have more background information

Ricesnaps,

If you can prove that I'm grossly misinformed about energy saving light bulbs, you are welcome to name & shame me, and will also get my sincere apologies.

But if I'm right, will I get YOUR apologies? Probably not!

I stand by the 6 negative things I said about them.

I'll even add another one...energy saving bulbs are MUCH more harmful to the environment than standard ones. Why? because they contain Mercury vapour, which is toxic. It's so toxic, there's actually an EEC directive BANNING them from being put into landfill sites!

So, we now have 7 bad things about energy saving bulbs, but the only GOOD thing I can think of is that they last longer.

Therefore, despite what you may have heard, energy saving bulbs are :Rob James:

I'm not too sure about some research being in order - I think my information should be reasonably accurate, as it came from my brother...who has worked for the last 25 years as an electronics engineer!

[Shaun]

The name calling was removed from the post. Let's keep things civil....

[Tony Scott]

Ok this is my understanding of these types of Par cans.

RGB = Red, Green & Blue.

These primary colours can be mixed in varying amounts to create any colour in the spectrum, just like in a TV.

In a RGB light the DMX controller varies (mixes) the primary colours by sending the can varying DMX values.

LED's are much brighter per Watt than traditonal resistance lighting therefore the power rating will be less.

Do not quote me on this but this is how I understand it.

[groovy-nights]

if you are wanting to colour wash wall properly then you really want to be using
http://www.pulsarlight.com/ChromaStrip2.htm

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I'm interested to know your reasons for choosing a LED par can rather than a standard one...which would be cheaper & brighter.

Go and have a look at some LED pars Rob.

The colours are more vivid, they are much cooler and cheaper to run.

[rob1963]

Go and have a look at some LED pars Rob.

The colours are more vivid, they are much cooler and cheaper to run.

Thanks for that info, Darren.

I haven't seen them, so I wasn't aware of the colours being more vivid.

I know they are cooler, but I wouldn't think the fact that they're cheaper to run makes much difference. I know they use less power, but we don't pay for the electricity at our gigs. They also last for ages, but I've been using my standard par bulbs for nearly 10 years now...and so far I haven't had to replace a single one.

Next time I go to a disco showroom, I'll have to check out the LED cans, as I'm interested to see what they look like.

[Ricesnaps]

Thanks for that info, Darren.

I haven't seen them, so I wasn't aware of the colours being more vivid.

I know they are cooler, but I wouldn't think the fact that they're cheaper to run makes much difference. I know they use less power, but we don't pay for the electricity at our gigs. They also last for ages, but I've been using my standard par bulbs for nearly 10 years now...and so far I haven't had to replace a single one.

Next time I go to a disco showroom, I'll have to check out the LED cans, as I'm interested to see what they look like.

I guess, certainly for me, the main advantage over a standard PAR lantern is that you can colour mix on them. None of this old fashioned pop a gel in front business!

[rob1963]

I guess, certainly for me, the main advantage over a standard PAR lantern is that you can colour mix on them. None of this old fashioned pop a gel in front business!

That's a fair point, Ricesnaps...it's not something I was aware of.

By the way, I've just edited my post #8 on this thread, so you might want to read the amended version.

:)

[Paul James Promotions]

Standard par cans are very good for open white, yellow and light colours. You will never beat them with LED's. However, deep saturated colours, especially blue looks better with LEDs.

If you are looking to wash walls, you need to consider the beam angle, the higher the number the better, ideally 35 degrees or more else it will be like placing a torch against a wall.

Acme have just released a range of the LED Pars, been looking at one with 212 x 5mm LEDs, and a 40 degree beam angle, might be the right choice for you.

http://www.prolight.co.uk/item.php?hdnID=508126

Hope this helps

Jamie

[Ricesnaps]

Standard par cans are very good for open white, yellow and light colours. You will never beat them with LED's. However, deep saturated colours, especially blue looks better with LEDs.

If you are looking to wash walls, you need to consider the beam angle, the higher the number the better, ideally 35 degrees or more else it will be like placing a torch against a wall.

Acme have just released a range of the LED Pars, been looking at one with 212 x 5mm LEDs, and a 40 degree beam angle, might be the right choice for you.

http://www.prolight.co.uk/item.php?hdnID=508126

Hope this helps

Jamie

Any idea who stocks these? Web link maybe?

[CRAZY K]

I guess, certainly for me, the main advantage over a standard PAR lantern is that you can colour mix on them. None of this old fashioned pop a gel in front business!

And whats wrong with powerful Cans with gels?

I bought some from a band--they are extrememly effective :D

and cheap to run :)

After all its the colour on the wall you look at--- not the cans:D

Unless you want to go blind:eek:

CRAZY K

[Ricesnaps]

And whats wrong with powerful Cans with gels?

I bought some from a band--they are extrememly effective :D

and cheap to run :)

After all its the colour on the wall you look at--- not the cans:D

Unless you want to go blind:eek:

CRAZY K

I guess the ability to mix any colour you want and not have to run out and buy the gel helps. Plus how the hell do you colour change easily on a par can, won't my fingers get hot changing the gel 30 times a minute?

[Corabar Steve]

Looking at that link, I notice the power is 15 watts...that's HALF what you get with a standard PAR 36!!!.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't wattage the power that a lamp needs to perform & not a measurement of it's actual output?

http://www.mediacollege.com/lighting/measurement/

[rob1963]

won't my fingers get hot changing the gel 30 times a minute?

Not if you wear gloves! :p

[Ricesnaps]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't wattage the power that a lamp needs to preform & not a measurement of it's actual output?

http://www.mediacollege.com/lighting/measurement/

Give that man a pint!

By the way I have 2000 watt speakers cos it says "peak power = 2000watts"!

[Ricesnaps]

Not if you wear gloves! :p

I do, fingerless :bang:

[Corabar Steve]

Give that man a pint!
:beer3: :sj:

[CRAZY K]

I guess the ability to mix any colour you want and not have to run out and buy the gel helps. Plus how the hell do you colour change easily on a par can, won't my fingers get hot changing the gel 30 times a minute?

If your mixing colours thats different:D

Im lucky--- I dont need to:)

CRAZY K

[TONYTIGER]

I think i have said this before led par cans are very pretty but the light output is feeble compared to normal pars unless you dig deep in your pocket and buy the 1 watt version. Have any of you out there ever thought of using scrollers on your par cans simple and effective, one light 10 colours!
TONYTIGER

[sleah]

I know they use less power, but we don't pay for the electricity at our gigs.

True, but 4 PAR56 take 1200w of power ('bout 5A) whereas you'd loose count of the number of LED PAR's that would draw 5A.
Power is often limited at gigs, so it's worth it to know you're not going to blow a fuse or simply run out of electricity (i.e. not enought sockets!!!):(


Have any of you out there ever thought of using scrollers on your par cans simple and effective, one light 10 colours!
TONYTIGER

Have you seen how much those darn thing cost Tony???:eek:
Besides, I've only seen them for PAR 64's and they make for quite a bulky fitting. Scrollers are really the domain of theatre and rock'n'roll rather than mobile disco.
Now if someone would bring out a really cheap scroller you could hang on a PAR56:cool:

[rob1963]

By the way I have 2000 watt speakers cos it says "peak power = 2000watts"!

So they're about 100 watts RMS then!

:D

[TONYTIGER]

Even thomann do scrollers about £100 each you can also get scrollers for all sorts of stage lighting, check the net for hire co selling off . what im trying to point out is 2x64s with 2xscrollers make a excelent colour changing system for about £250 and will out perform 8x led cans which will cost more. Also just because there 64s you dont have to put 1000w lamps in you can use 500w gy9.5 based lamps with raylights some times you have to look at other areas of the entertainment sector to come up with ideas just because it hasnt" got DISCO plastered all over it doesnt" mean its no good.If you were around in the 60s rember the tutor 2 projector from school class rooms with homemade oil wheels it brought a new dimension to light shows and from that came the solar 250. This might be a good thread (what are the most signifcant pieces of eqipment to have a impact on mobile discos) by the way in those days you could not buy disco gear you had to make it yourself you guys have got it easy now.TONYTIGER

[sleah]

If you were around in the 60s rember the tutor 2 projector from school class rooms

I've got a Rank Aldis Tutor 2 in it's original boxed stashed away at work (school).
Wonder if it's worth anything?:cool:

[rob1963]

4 PAR56 take 1200w of power ('bout 5A)

I know...which is why I use PAR 36 cans.

All 8 take only 240 watts, and I find them to be plenty bright enough for weddings.

[Ricesnaps]

OK,

It was my thread, so let me bring this back to earth. What on earth are we even considering pinspots for? This was about LED Par's, not toys. Well OK, I have four, but they are hardly going to wash a wall now are they. We'll discount that idea I think (unless a nice set of Par 36's will fulfil my requirements, never let it be said I didn't consider all the options!).

But seriously, I want to use LED pars to provide a column of light on walls as decoration. I have already been told by a company that already do this that the Eurolite Par 56 that Thommann sell are what they use, so to start with I do know what works. I guess as a first off I am just curious to see if some of the slightly cheaper option that Thommann sell would be any good or indeed at all comparable to the Eurolite. Why cheaper? Well I guess because I am concerned about spending £69 per unit (and I am likely to need a fair number) and finding our they are not what I want. The second thought is that when they are not being used for wall lighting, I would probably pop them on the rig and use as some sort of wash lighting - especially if the intended option doesn't take off.

So why not traditional PAR's? Well, if the plan comes together I want to be able to create as close to a requested colour as I can. Now I know I can do that with a gel book, but I'm not all that keen on having to do that every time I use them. The other point is that LED units run cold, traditional ones don't. As these are likely to be placed around the edge of a room, I have a feeling hot lights is probably not a great plan?

Hope that helps?

[sleah]

So why not traditional PAR's? Well, if the plan comes together I want to be able to create as close to a requested colour as I can. Now I know I can do that with a gel book, but I'm not all that keen on having to do that every time I use them. The other point is that LED units run cold, traditional ones don't. As these are likely to be placed around the edge of a room, I have a feeling hot lights is probably not a great plan?

Wise words. Also as you're putting several round a room, they'll hardly need any power so you won't need a dobbing great cable and loadsa power.
You could connect them to a wet piece of string plugged into a dodgy light socket and still have power to spare! (only kidding!!!).
The LED PARS we're talking about aren't really intended to replace standard PARS so are ideal for what you want.
Why not buy a couple and play around at home or on gigs?
If they don't do it for you, you could always flog 'em on flebay or dj bids.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I know...which is why I use PAR 36 cans.



Aren't they pinspots rather than pars Rob?

[rob1963]

Sorry Darren, yes - that's what I meant...smaller & cheaper!

:)

[jamesh]

Posted this link a few places before but can not remember if it was this thread or not but here's a pic a 4 of the cheap thomman (£40 - £45 jobbies) in action in a small marquee roughly 12m x 6m

It actually looks better in person rather on the photo... - also looked quite good having it 2 different colours but havent got a pic to hand to show that....

http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2282&stc=1&d=1180976118

Personally i think they are plenty bright enough for venue up lighting and such like... BUt a little warning to you... it seems every tom richard (:D) and harry have at least 20+ LED pars these days for venue uplighting and marquee lighting - so before spending all the money on it i'd really do some research into whether it's an addition to your disco that will actually pay off....

Just my thoughts on it... you might have already done the the research etc...

[Ricesnaps]

Posted this link a few places before but can not remember if it was this thread or not but here's a pic a 4 of the cheap thomman (£40 - £45 jobbies) in action in a small marquee roughly 12m x 6m

It actually looks better in person rather on the photo... - also looked quite good having it 2 different colours but havent got a pic to hand to show that....

http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2282&stc=1&d=1180976118

Personally i think they are plenty bright enough for venue up lighting and such like... BUt a little warning to you... it seems every tom richard (:D) and harry have at least 20+ LED pars these days for venue uplighting and marquee lighting - so before spending all the money on it i'd really do some research into whether it's an addition to your disco that will actually pay off....

Just my thoughts on it... you might have already done the the research etc...

Are they the PAR 56's from Thommann?

Have done a small amount of research on the wedding forums and got the impression that a lot of people hadn't seen this sort of lighting before. I also play a lot of marquee / old barn type venues locally and have never seen this type of lighting in use.

However I was going to buy a pair of something and have a play. I guess that's why I was considering the £39 PAR 56 that Thommann have on offer right now - not a lot of dosh to shell out on a trial run!

No, forget it all, I'm going to invest in 200 PAR 36 pin spots and place them at 50cm intervals around the edge of the room - Wahey, it's the 1980's again!

[jamesh]

These are the ones i have...

http://www.thomann.de/gb/led_light_led_par_56_black_2.htm

[Ricesnaps]

These are the ones i have...

http://www.thomann.de/gb/led_light_led_par_56_black_2.htm

Which I think is identical to this:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_par_56_alu_schwarz.htm

If it is, this is a bargain right now!

Out of interest, can you run the sound to light options master slave on these, or are these the ones that are somewhat tricky to do? Is the problem solved with a DMX controller, or is there no problem?

[theoloyla]

Also to add to the debate on this dont forget it is the governments intention to ban incandecent lamps in the forseeable future; so we will all be using LED's and low energy lamps in future.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Out of interest, can you run the sound to light options master slave on these, or are these the ones that are somewhat tricky to do? Is the problem solved with a DMX controller, or is there no problem?

No, they don't run master and slave. I thought they did and bought two...

Edit - just to add, the sound to light on them is rubbish too. Very very flicky and strobey.

[Ricesnaps]

No, they don't run master and slave. I thought they did and bought two...

Edit - just to add, the sound to light on them is rubbish too. Very very flicky and strobey.

So you are suggesting these are not a good buy?

Has anyone got any experience of any other of the units Thommann sell - maybe the eurolight versions?

Seems silly to buy a couple to try if they will only ever do static colour wash - would like some versitility and hopefully some form of master slave.

Out of interested Solitaire, have you tried running yours through a DMX controller??

[jamesh]

Which I think is identical to this:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_par_56_alu_schwarz.htm

If it is, this is a bargain right now!

Out of interest, can you run the sound to light options master slave on these, or are these the ones that are somewhat tricky to do? Is the problem solved with a DMX controller, or is there no problem?

NO they aren't the same....

Look at the descriptions! the one you linked to is 5 channel DMX the slightly more expensive is 6 channel DMX..

But yeah you don't need master / slave for them really.... If its for room decoration and you're picking colours you'll be DMX'ing them anyway...

Plus the slow scrol. which looks very nice in venue lighting. stays in sync as long as they are all switched on at the same time.

[Ricesnaps]

Ok then, based on the following requirements:

1. Use for some form of wall washing
2. Would like to use as master slave on the rig
3. MIGHT consider running a show from DMX controller
4. Don't want this to cost the earth

which of the following bargain deals would be best to look at (and please don't just recomend the most expensive, I'm on a budget!)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_par_56_alu_schwarz.htm
http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_par_64_alu_poliert.htm
http://www.thomann.de/gb/euroliteled_par_64_rgb_10_mm_leds.htm

[jamesh]

No, they don't run master and slave. I thought they did and bought two...

Edit - just to add, the sound to light on them is rubbish too. Very very flicky and strobey.

Yeah they don't do master / slave and sound to light isn't too bad if you adjust the sensitivity on the back... BUT it's not as good as DMX...

Plus as i said on an earlier post if it's for marquee lighting and room lighting etc... then you wont be using them on sound to light or master / slave... you're more likely to be DMXing them..... And if all else fails set them to auto and choose a scroll speed and they will all near enough be in sync IF they are all on the same.

[Ricesnaps]

NO they aren't the same....

Look at the descriptions! the one you linked to is 5 channel DMX the slightly more expensive is 6 channel DMX..

But yeah you don't need master / slave for them really.... If its for room decoration and you're picking colours you'll be DMX'ing them anyway...

Plus the slow scrol. which looks very nice in venue lighting. stays in sync as long as they are all switched on at the same time.

Mmmm, you might just have swung it for me - what are these ones like sound to light and master slave?

[jamesh]

Mmmm, you might just have swung it for me - what are these ones like sound to light and master slave?

aaahhhh tooo many posts at ones :D:D:D

yeah that's the downside to the ones i linked to as they don't do master slave... but then for venue lighting it's really not needed - but as you say if you want to use them as a disco effect on your rig too for some functions master / slave would be useful so probably go down the eurolite route...

Not too sure what the sound to light is like on the eurolite ones though as never used them.

[Ricesnaps]

WAY to many posts!

Thommann do a 30 day money back guarantee, so I guess I could try them and send them back / change them if not quite what i want?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Yeah they don't do master / slave and sound to light isn't too bad if you adjust the sensitivity on the back...

I disagree - they were really flicky even using the sensativity button


And if all else fails set them to auto and choose a scroll speed and they will all near enough be in sync IF they are all on the same.

I tried that too and mine didn't stay in sync very long. :(

[jamesh]

perhaps i got a really good batch then - i did have a problem with 2 of them going out of sync for a while - until i realised 2 were switched on music and 2 on auto... since they are all on auto i've not had any problems and thats running them for around 9 hours none stop.