Pat certificates a complete farce

[Have a disco]

Ok just spent afternoon chatting with Pat testing agent to housing association I currently live with whom stated that there is no defined law to how often Pat certificates should cover for but he did state that if I was booked out every weekend then I could consider 18 month rather than a 3 year term of regular checking of my equipment but as I currently stand I should stick with my 3 yearly checks???????

Just to clarify to those I am Pat covered as my documentation states.. It covers me for 3 years according to those that tested me these are the same rules Hotels all use or residency homes use, even Public Houses abide by these rules???? So whom is right whom is wrong???? There are no definite guidelines upon time limits of Pat certificate status??? But the general norm is regarded as 3 Years...

In which case... Give me my tick back????

I will be renewing it next July for its 3 yearly check, documentation will state accordingly that it covers a 3 year period???? unless governmental doctrine dictates otherwise!!! even they abide by a 3 year term check for there own premises????? Anything that needs repair is automatically rechecked on date of rerpair............ Will the Pat verification system accept 3 year testing terms???? as is accepted else where within the industry

[rob1963]

I've never heard of 3 yearly PAT testing before.

As far as I'm aware, most people get their gear tested annually.

That's what I do.

Otherwise, something could develop a fault, and you could end up using a dangerous piece of equipment for up to 3 years.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Exactly what I am led to believe too. My mate Paul who runs his own successful electrical business does my stuff every year and has never mentioned this before. I know he would as he has openly told me that he hates doing PAT tests as they don't earn him enough and are more trouble than they are worth. If 3 year PAT tests were the norm' then at least it would save us some dosh.

[Have a disco]

Just had this arguement with a Pat tester today but he stood his ground and is not the first to do so It is not a legal requirement to do it YEARLY within Government premises, workplaces or Public Houses or even Hotels to do yearly they are all reccommended to do it 3 yearly

Please note I always re test anything that needs repairing as matter of standard buy the repairer, but even he says that anything could fail a Pat test within 24 hours if tested again???

[rob1963]

When I'm next asked for my PAT test certificate, if I say "No problem - the last test was done 3 years ago" I can't see many of them accepting that!

[Ricesnaps]

My understanding was that the test frequency should be based on risk assessment. That could mean as mobile users we need to carry out PAT testing MORE than yearly"

[Jays karaoke]

Your right there are no laws that state how often you should have your equipment PAT testes but been a qualified PAT tester myself i know that the actual guidelines for retesting are anually. I wouldn't really call 3 yearly regularly and besides how do you know that your equipment is safe from one year to the next. For the sake of a few quid you ought to be having it tested once a year and and think about the potential danger you are imposing on your clients by not having it checked anually. So no, dont give him his tick back.


Jay

[JAMdisco]

I am not a PAt tester but I work in IT for a large company that does their testing every 2 years.
We have, however recently all been issued a company government handout stating that all new equipment only requires a quick visual check by the user (i.e. new PC's, cables etc...). I am sure this will be legit as our insurers wouldn't touch us if it were false.
It is true that there are no hard and fast rules on how often you should have items tested but if hotels,clubs and/or pubs want it yearly then (if you want gigs at these venues) we should do so.

[A1DL]

As has been covered many times before, whilst PAT testing itself is not a legal requirement, it is a legal requirement to have a safe system of work, and to maintain your kit in safe condition.

PAT Testing is the widely accepted means of achieving the above, and its frequency is based upon risk assessment. As such many companies and orgainisations make PAT testing a requirement to be eligible to work on their premises, often because their insurer has stipulated this.

Having PAT tested dozens of DJs every year for many years, IMHO a three year frequency is highly unsuitable for equipment and cables that spend their life enduring the rigours of the road. It is custom in practice and widely recognised within this industry that the suitable test frequency is annually, with visual checks being made as equipment is being used.

As I often point out to DJs, 90% of PAT failures are "visual inspection" failures, which shouldn't require an electrician or a yellow box to identify!

[CRAZY K]

Ok just spent afternoon chatting with Pat testing agent to housing association I currently live with whom stated that there is no defined law to how often Pat certificates should cover for but he did state that if I was booked out every weekend then I could consider 18 month rather than a 3 year term of regular checking of my equipment but as I currently stand I should stick with my 3 yearly checks???????

Just to clarify to those I am Pat covered as my documentation states.. It covers me for 3 years according to those that tested me these are the same rules Hotels all use or residency homes use, even Public Houses abide by these rules???? So whom is right whom is wrong???? There are no definite guidelines upon time limits of Pat certificate status??? But the general norm is regarded as 3 Years...

In which case... Give me my tick back????

I will be renewing it next July for its 3 yearly check, documentation will state accordingly that it covers a 3 year period???? unless governmental doctrine dictates otherwise!!! even they abide by a 3 year term check for there own premises????? Anything that needs repair is automatically rechecked on date of rerpair............ Will the Pat verification system accept 3 year testing terms???? as is accepted else where within the industry

I wont go into this much--but theres been loads of threads on this.

It depends on the wear factor as to how often is reasonable.

Unless you work once a month the wear and tear on Disco gear is going to mean an annual test is reasonable.

Ill bet you wont get past any Council officials with a certificate thats 2 years old!

For discos working several times a week even yearly might not be enough bearing in mind all the cables and equipment are constantly being moved and bent around---:eek:

CRAZY K

[DJWayne]

I have to say i know more and more venues are requesting this but to be fair in most cases it isnt worth the paper its printed on. Once the tests are completed and you remove that wiring and take it to another venue and set it up that test doesn't hold water as all the PAT test says is that it wasnt faulty at the time of testing. Its just a case of venues covering their back with their insurance companies. Whilst i appreciate how dangerous unsafe wiring is i have to say PAT testing is not the answer for mobile acts like us.

[spin mobile disco]

I have mine done yearly, I think as we are mobile and our kit gets more use than a fixed appliance we should test frequently. If only to reassure the public and our clients.

[Your Big Event]

PAT frquency depends on the item, SOME things are 24 months, most are 12 month, some are 6 months, I do my PAT every 6 months.

[Penfold42]

PAT frquency depends on the item, SOME things are 24 months, most are 12 month, some are 6 months, I do my PAT every 6 months.

Do you test that yourself or do you have a mate?

[Have a disco]

This is the point I was trying to make as my equipment does not go out as frequent as some why should I have to do this test yearly??? I always ensure my equipment is up to Pat test stds and make sure all wires are not kept in a shody condition, This ruling upon pat verification tick is to say the least, the most ambiguous request for verification???

I have no qualms against getting it done regularly but the frequency is something that worries me? If not on a cost issue but more so for legal reasons? is it not time we all campaigned for a final tightening of this slack policy across the industry, for it too be done compulsorarily be done yearly???? at least lets get the playing field level one way or another

[A1DL]

I have to say i know more and more venues are requesting this but to be fair in most cases it isnt worth the paper its printed on. Once the tests are completed and you remove that wiring and take it to another venue and set it up that test doesn't hold water as all the PAT test says is that it wasnt faulty at the time of testing. Its just a case of venues covering their back with their insurance companies. Whilst i appreciate how dangerous unsafe wiring is i have to say PAT testing is not the answer for mobile acts like us.


I'm struggling to comprehend the points you're trying to make, Wayne.

Of course the test certificate is worth the paper it's written on, provided the tests have been carried out thoroughly and by a competent person. Very similar to the MOT on a car, an annual test which doesn't negate the need to check tyres, brakes, etc. regularly throughout the year - but states the vehicle was fit for purpose at the time of inspection.

There are parts of the PAT test (most importantly Earth Bonding) where a visual inspection may NOT pick up a fault, however damaged cables, exposed live parts on equipment through breakage of outer casing, etc. CAN and SHOULD be identified by the user.

Think of PAT testing as an "annual health check" but always carry out common sense based visual inspections before use - and if in doubt.... don't use.

Out of interest, you state "PAT testing is not the answer for mobile acts", I would be interested in what you feel would be a better solution to what is pretty much the universally accepted standard of showing due diligence :confused:

[DJWayne]

There are parts of the PAT test (most importantly Earth Bonding) where a visual inspection may NOT pick up a fault, however damaged cables, exposed live parts on equipment through breakage of outer casing, etc. CAN and SHOULD be identified by the user.


What i am saying is that PAT testing is fine if the equipment is not being moved if it is what has passed today may not pass tomorrow.

Visual inspection is what we have been doing in this industry for years "that plug looks a bit dodgy better repair it".

PAT testing is fine at the time of testing and there are some faults that visual inspection wont identify but you could spend 11 months with a faulty lead that you had PAT tested because people seem to believe that PAT is some sort of holy grail and the be all and end all of having safe equipment for 12 months.

As regards an alternative I don't know what solution would be best for the type of wear we put on our equipment with constant setting up / packing away but i dont feel that PAT holds all the answers.

[A1DL]

What i am saying is that PAT testing is fine if the equipment is not being moved

:confused:

portable
adj.
1. Carried or moved with ease: a portable typewriter; a portable generator.

:bang:

[DJWayne]

Yes the definition of portable when applied to PAT ain't quite the same as it seems anything that isnt a permanent installation is classed as portable.

[CRAZY K]

This is the point I was trying to make as my equipment does not go out as frequent as some why should I have to do this test yearly??? I always ensure my equipment is up to Pat test stds and make sure all wires are not kept in a shody condition, This ruling upon pat verification tick is to say the least, the most ambiguous request for verification???

I have no qualms against getting it done regularly but the frequency is something that worries me? If not on a cost issue but more so for legal reasons? is it not time we all campaigned for a final tightening of this slack policy across the industry, for it too be done compulsorarily be done yearly???? at least lets get the playing field level one way or another

Because like a Motor car DJ equipment slowly deteriorates-check that spelling RICE! Even if you dont use it.

Thats why Cars have an MOT each year--you dont get exemptions for low mileage cars:eek: :eek: :eek:

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

I always carry a multimeter and a long extension cord for one of the prongs.

Whenever I have an early setup I'll take 5 minutes once the gear is all built to run a quick earth continuity check and leakage check across all of the gear (well, the gear that's not double-insulated :rolleyes: ).

So I get a full certified PAT annually, a visual every time the gear goes up or down again, and a mini-PAT maybe once or twice a month to boot.

[Excalibur]

I have to say i know more and more venues are requesting this but to be fair in most cases it isnt worth the paper its printed on. Once the tests are completed and you remove that wiring and take it to another venue and set it up that test doesn't hold water as all the PAT test says is that it wasnt faulty at the time of testing. Its just a case of venues covering their back with their insurance companies. Whilst i appreciate how dangerous unsafe wiring is i have to say PAT testing is not the answer for mobile acts like us.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, PAT testing is no form of guarantee. One day later, parts or all of the gear ( unlikely, but technically possible) could fail the test. While I feel the present state of affairs is unsuitable, sadly I have nothing better to put in it's place. My only advice is to treat your gear with respect, check it visually every time, and never use suspect gear.

[flatliners]

well why not do it every year and a half then you are not right and not wrong

[Excalibur]

well why not do it every year and a half then you are not right and not wrong

The only way to comply totally would be to get tested every day!

[Corabar Steve]

Why is anyone even bothering to reply to this thread?

It's been done to death, & Badger will no doubt do things his way anyway.

[Excalibur]

Why is anyone even bothering to reply to this thread?

.

Free speech?

And isn't replying to other people's posts how a forum works? :confused:

Careful, Steve. You could be seen to be advocating censorship!

[soundtracker]

Steve isn't advocating the prevention of free speech - what he is trying to get across is that we have done this a million times! Badger starts this thread at least once a quarter! - venues increasingly now want to see PAT & PLI - its quite simple, if you want to work, you producve the paperwork - there is also now a level of prospective client that is aware through such avenues as wedding guides, forums etc that lack of PAT & PLI is the way to spot the "backstreet operator"
It doesn't matter whether you think PAT is any good or not, IT IS THE ACCEPTED STANDARD- now adhere to it or get back on your horse and ride off into the sunset with all of the other cowboys,

[Dragonfly]

this is true ...... alot of places round me ask to see certificates so ..... if you want to get the gigs in those venues ...... many higher end venues.....

you get the paper work you can think its a farce or totally irrelevent but even if this is the case get it just for the sake of it being asked for...

as stated it at the moment is the accepted form of certification no need for whys wherefores etc etc it just is.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The only way to comply totally would be to get tested every day!

Or everytime you work even.

[wensleydale]

again-- its another one of those things were different people have different views, but ultimately there is no right or wrong- do it how you want but don't grumble at others for doing it differently.

[soundtracker]

Like I said it doesn't matter what YOUR view is - only that of the venue employing you - are you willing to take the chance of being turned away at the door?

[Corabar Steve]

Free speech?

And isn't replying to other people's posts how a forum works? :confused:

Careful, Steve. You could be seen to be advocating censorship!

Right that's it!

Anyone starting a thread on PAT during the next 6 months will have the thread deleted & be put in the sin bin for a year! :sj: :sj:

[Dragonfly]

and kicked , hit with sticks and forced to use sound lab speakers for the duration of their sin binnage ...... just made that word up.

[Corabar Steve]

Lets see if this will clear things up.

(Taken from The Institution of Electrical Engineers, Code of Practice for In-service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment)

[Corabar Steve]

I see no mention of 36 months. However if you only use certain equipment & work in schools or hotels you could get away with 48 :sj:


Does anybody know of a good sarcastic smilie?

Obviously there are variables in as much as the stuff refered to for 48 month tests would invariably be moved around a lot less than the equipment of a busy mobile DJ. For example a kettle or TV in a hotel room would both have to be checked every 48 months. Both are as moveable as any kit we have, but neither would leave the room in that 4 year period.


12 months seems to have become something of an industry standard for mobile discos, & I would say it was foolhardy to do it any less frequently (unless you only gig (with your kit as opposed to a walk in, or somebody else's) something like once a quarter)

[Penfold42]

and kicked , hit with sticks and forced to use sound lab speakers for the duration of their sin binnage ...... just made that word up.

Better get your dusted off then...............:p

[Corabar Steve]

Better get your dusted off then...............:p

Better get his what dusted off?

[Penfold42]

Better get his what dusted off?

I'll get my coat.....:o :D

[Dragonfly]

Better get your dusted off then...............:p


morning Tony ..... posts very sparce this morning ? .... actually doing some work mate :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :D :D

ill sort them out today ..... 150w a side should do december shouldnt it? :D

[Penfold42]

morning Tony ..... posts very sparce this morning ? .... actually doing some work mate :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :zip: :D :D

ill sort them out today ..... 150w a side should do december shouldnt it? :D

Don't forget the rope lights.....and yes i am busy......writing quote's.......:D :D

Had a letter yet?

[Vibrant Sounds]

For example a kettle or TV in a hotel room would both have to be checked every 48 months. Both are as moveable as any kit we have, but neither would leave the room in that 4 year period.


Steve, any item in a hotel that is used by the public (ie anything in their rooms) is subject to the 'used by the public' category not the hotel category. The Hotel category is for items used by the staff.

[Corabar Steve]

& this should concern me because?


I was merely trying to illustrate a point simply. I chose those items because they were electrical & found in hotels. Maybe I should have said the vacume cleaner used by hotel staff.

I only test disco related appliances.

Although I must admit to finding it rediculous that anything that is electrical & needs testing should have a different period of time that the test can be valid, unless it was varied for how much it was moved.

[Dragonfly]

come on steve don't tell me you have never thought about taking the kettle to bits in the travel lodge.... :D :D :D

[Larry B Entertainment]

come on steve don't tell me you have never thought about taking the kettle to bits in the travel lodge.... :D :D :D

Lol....:p

[Penfold42]

come on steve don't tell me you have never thought about taking the kettle to bits in the travel lodge.... :D :D :D

Quick tip = When staying at these places always wash out and boil twice.....people do strange things in these........:)

[Larry B Entertainment]

:eek: What else could you possibly do with a kettle apart from boil water ? ;)

[wensleydale]

Quick tip = When staying at these places always wash out and boil twice.....people do strange things in these........:)

i think someone has a confession to make.

[Penfold42]

i think someone has a confession to make.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
It is a well known fact that stag do's or lad's who book these room's on a share basis......shall we say don't share the toilet at the same time.......:eek:

[Corabar Steve]

I don't drink tea or coffee & I'm definitely not taking one apart after hearing that! http://planetsmilies.net/vicious-smiley-1829.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Excalibur]

Steve isn't advocating the prevention of free speech - what he is trying to get across is that we have done this a million times! Badger starts this thread at least once a quarter! - venues increasingly now want to see PAT & PLI - its quite simple, if you want to work, you producve the paperwork - there is also now a level of prospective client that is aware through such avenues as wedding guides, forums etc that lack of PAT & PLI is the way to spot the "backstreet operator"
It doesn't matter whether you think PAT is any good or not, IT IS THE ACCEPTED STANDARD- now adhere to it or get back on your horse and ride off into the sunset with all of the other cowboys,

Please read posts carefully. I never said Steve WAS advocating censorship, I said " He could be seen to be" , the implication being that it would not be the view of a completely objective person. And then, just to back me up, Steve threatened to sin bin anyone starting another PAT thread for six months! Yes, we all know it was a joke, thank goodness.:D

Now the more serious bit. I really do object very vigorously to being called a cowboy. I find it totally offensive and uncalled for, especially as in other posts Steve( Actually it was Darren, sorry) asked for personal insults and name calling not to be used. I may have many failings, but I know that almost all my customers would unreservedly recommend me, in fact some of them do their utmost to ensure that they only book me! In 35 years at this game I have never been called a cowboy. ( I've been called plenty of other things, but that doesn't matter)

PAT certs. Having the paperwork doesn't make you good, as a DJ, or anything else. The first DJ who showed me PAT tested gear was a joke. I would not have dared to plug it in, but it had a ticket! It does matter whether we think PAT is any good or not, how about a punter who books a disco- " This one must be good, he's got PLI and PAT". Does that necessarily follow? You and I know full well that it doesn't. I accept that my normal venue type influences this, but in 35 years at this game, the lack of a PAT cert has cost me ONE booking. Things may change, and I hope for the better in many ways. I await your reply with interest.

[Tom]

I don't drink tea or coffee http://planetsmilies.net/vicious-smiley-1829.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

me neither

plus i would take it back and get a fresh one. show the staff and let them do what they want to do with it.

[soundtracker]

Sorry pal - the whole ethos of this site is that we promote professional standards - it has been right from day one - Certs do not make you a good DJ, and I never said that they did. BUT not ahering to professsional standards makes your position questionable and gives the venue/client the opportunity to doubt your ethics - why would you want to do that for the sake of a couple of quid?

[discomobiledj]

I think PAT tests are a absolute waste of time, as it has been said many times in this thread, it could work one day but not the next.

[TonyB]

I think PAT tests are a absolute waste of time, as it has been said many times in this thread, it could work one day but not the next.

I wouldn't go that far. If you were using a defective bit of equipment, wouldn't you rather find out it was defective before someone got electrocuted, you blew the fuse panel in a venue or worse still started a fire?

Somethings can go on being used day after day and gradually deteriorate without any visible signs but a PAT test will pick up on things that are on there way out or becoming defective. Some items are defective from new (look for thread about the bad earths on lights) - without a PAT test, this wouldn't be picked up.

It isn't the answer to everything but it at least makes a statement to show that you have made the effort to ensure your equipment is safe.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I think PAT tests are a absolute waste of time, as it has been said many times in this thread, it could work one day but not the next.

And so how exactly would you show a Hotel, venue or client that your equipment is safe and has been tested? What other way is there of doing that?

[Corabar Steve]

And so how exactly would you show a Hotel, venue or client that your equipment is safe and has been tested? What other way is there of doing that?

Indeed, & as has been said in this & many other threads, new kit can & has failed a PAT test. If you have equipment, get it tested. It makes sense in the longrun.

[soundtracker]

As usual this thread is goimg around in circles - I have therefore closed it!