Postal strike--going electronic

[CRAZY K]

Just wondered if this has made anyone consider trying to stop using pigeon post completely to avoid the current problem? :bang: :bang: :bang:

I have just been asked to obtain a non refundable booking fee by Bank transfer from Australia--so this set me thinking.

WORK SMARTER

Maybe I should forget cheques now and just get the wonga transferred straight into our Bank by Bank credit transfer.

That only leaves the Contract---I have just received an email about my booking this Sunday saying they will pay in full on the night and accept my Terms and Conditions.

Im not sure how well that would stand up in the small claims court on future business in the event of cancellation. Is an email confirmation legally binding---as opposed to a signed Contract. Maybe not?

Alternative (according to how switched on the customer may be) is for me to print the Contract--sign my bit--email the scanned doc--get the client to print off at their end--sign their bit--scan and send back.

Again not sure if that would stand up in a small claims court.

ANGELA--ANY VIEWS?

We certainly need to be thinking of these things---

CRAZY K

[Tom]

what about (for the personl touch) meet up with every client who wants to book you then you can talk about the booking face to face instead of using snail mail, but only if that actually book with you ion the phone. just arrange a date and meet up. it might be more costly but if the gigs are close then its not a problem.

With better dj/customer relationship going on, this could lead into more work???


just an idea anyway

[CRAZY K]

what about (for the personl touch) meet up with every client who wants to book you then you can talk about the booking face to face instead of using snail mail, but only if that actually book with you ion the phone. just arrange a date and meet up. it might be more costly but if the gigs are close then its not a problem.

With better dj/customer relationship going on, this could lead into more work???


just an idea anyway

Good idea for Weddings maybe--where your charging a decent fee AND your meeting time is costed in.

For me its a problem--all my gigs are long distance--90 per cent anyway

Then theres broken appointments and all the rest of it.

I should know--I spent a life time attending meetings with people not turning up, late sick etc.

Fair comment though.

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

Alan

If it helps...

I offer to send documentation as .pdf via email and have them either

a) print, sign and mail it back

or

b) email it back with a standard line that i feed them ("I, the undersigned...") and their full name and address

or

c) print, sign and fax it back


The vast majority of folks still prefer me to mail them a hard copy. Of those who do go electronic, virtually all go for a), occasionally c), almost never b). I've not had occasion to test b).

I offer online payment of deposits, balances and extras, but again the majority of customers prefer a cheque in the post and cash on the night.


It's good to have all the options lined up though; I recently took a booking for a wedding next year from a soldier in Iraq via satphone and he wanted to pay the deposit then and there. He had internet access so we did it online.

The more options you have available, the better it looks as you can serve the requirements of a wide cross-section of customers.

Some folks are happy to pay for stuff over the web; some are not.

[CRAZY K]

Alan

If it helps...

I offer to send documentation as .pdf via email and have them either

a) print, sign and mail it back

or

b) email it back with a standard line that i feed them ("I, the undersigned...") and their full name and address

or

c) print, sign and fax it back


The vast majority of folks still prefer me to mail them a hard copy. Of those who do go electronic, virtually all go for a), occasionally c), almost never b). I've not had occasion to test b).

I offer online payment of deposits, balances and extras, but again the majority of customers prefer a cheque in the post and cash on the night.


It's good to have all the options lined up though; I recently took a booking for a wedding next year from a soldier in Iraq via satphone and he wanted to pay the deposit then and there. He had internet access so we did it online.

The more options you have available, the better it looks as you can serve the requirements of a wide cross-section of customers.

Some folks are happy to pay for stuff over the web; some are not.

Thanks for that--im just taking a "deposit" from Australia by bank transfer--so it just struck me maybe its time to work smarter.

Under option (a ) do they sign and then scan the Contract with both signatures, then email to you? That sounds favourite.

FAX???????? Gave mine away last year---

I thought that was like Garrard SP25 decks--a thing of the past :D

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

In a) I meant 'post' it back rather than email.

b) is the one missing a signature, but is replaced with an emailed disclaimer instead.


c) - go get yourself a free 'fax to email' account - for example this one (http://www.faxtastic.co.uk/) - company gets paid via the premium rate number, you get your faxes routed to your email addy.

?

[Tom]

would it be a good idea to sign up to paypal, what opition would i choose and is it safe???

was thinking about setting up an account and and have the money paid into the buisness account via the internet if the client prefers to pay everything at once.

also well done vectisvibe to getting a gig with a soldier. you even spoke to the man. i would have said a good word about him on the phone.

wow. that would really mean somthing to me if i got a call like that. :)

[Vectis]

would it be a good idea to sign up to paypal, what opition would i choose and is it safe???


For low volume use, in my opinion PayPal is as safe as, and probably as cheap as, a proper merchant account and you avoid the set-up charges. I also offer Google Checkout and Nochex if people want to avoid using PayPal (even though they don't have to sign up to use it).

First, if you haven't signed up already, get a basic account. Then upgrade it to a Merchant account (Free). Not sure about eligibility or anything as I carried on using my PayPal account that I've had for donkeys years.

[Tom]

thanks for the infomation. :)

[CRAZY K]

In a) I meant 'post' it back rather than email.

b) is the one missing a signature, but is replaced with an emailed disclaimer instead.


c) - go get yourself a free 'fax to email' account - for example this one (http://www.faxtastic.co.uk/) - company gets paid via the premium rate number, you get your faxes routed to your email addy.

?

Premium rates :eek:

Im not a Cowboy--im a Country and Western DJ :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I was thinking scan the printed signed Contract after signature and e mail back for your option (a ) --too complicated for some people I know--

Ah well---all in the course of time--no doubt it will happen with the more technology based clients---must say theres a lot more around these days which is really good news.

By that I mean those that own a scanner and can use it:D :D :D

Not really high tech at all---

CRAZY K

[CRAZY K]

would it be a good idea to sign up to paypal, what opition would i choose and is it safe???

was thinking about setting up an account and and have the money paid into the buisness account via the internet if the client prefers to pay everything at once.

also well done vectisvibe to getting a gig with a soldier. you even spoke to the man. i would have said a good word about him on the phone.

wow. that would really mean somthing to me if i got a call like that. :)

Im doing a Wedding on Saturday for a serviceman who has just returned from Iraq:eek:

I didnt know that when it was booked though!

CRAZY K

[BeerFunk]

Good idea, but I reckon the majority of folks will prefer to use the post, cheques etc.

Does the strike really affect anything? Assuming you're not sorting out the money and paperwork a week before the event, then no! :)

[Corabar Steve]

would it be a good idea to sign up to paypal, what opition would i choose and is it safe???

Or Nochex, which is what we use & the bulk of our customers pay using it. Around 80%

[Tom]

Or Nochex, which is what we use & the bulk of our customers pay using it. Around 80%

does this Nochex work the same as paypal or somthing. i dont want to go off topic but how does this work???

[Vectis]

Same concept, yes.

[Vectis]

re: earlier comments on faxing; faxes are still legal documents IIRC

[Tom]

kk. thanks.

[CRAZY K]

Good idea, but I reckon the majority of folks will prefer to use the post, cheques etc.

Does the strike really affect anything? Assuming you're not sorting out the money and paperwork a week before the event, then no! :)

Yes im doing a Wedding Saturday ( two weeks notice )--I cant get a signed Contract or a deposit in the post.

Then I have a client in Australia who wants to book me for December--I dont think putting a cheque or Contract in the post to UK is a good idea--

The aftermath of the strike will be a nightmare--and we all know whats going to happen to some of the mail
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

CRAZY K

[CRAZY K]

re: earlier comments on faxing; faxes are still legal documents IIRC

I assume emails are NOT?

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

I assume emails are NOT?

CRAZY K


Only if you can irrefutably prove an audit trail from sender to recipient.

More Here (http://www.out-law.com/page-5537)

So basically, without the help of a bunch of ISPs (who'll probably cite the data protection act), no.

[CRAZY K]

Only if you can irrefutably prove an audit trail from sender to recipient.

More Here (http://www.out-law.com/page-5537)

So basically, without the help of a bunch of ISPs (who'll probably cite the data protection act), no.

Thanks Martin--sounds about right!

CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

most of our deposits are done by bank transfer.
much easier and i dont have to go to the bank.
confirmations emailed out.
easy and quick.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

most of our deposits are done by bank transfer.
much easier and i dont have to go to the bank.
confirmations emailed out.
easy and quick.

How do you know who they are from?

[wensleydale]

name of account holder comes up on the account

[Corabar Entertainment]

We do most of our contracts and payments electronically these days (Customers still have the option of which method they want to use, but most of ours are going the electronic route, and the percentage seems to be increasing all the time). Am I worried about an electronic version of a contract being as good as a hard copy? In word, no.

We get the person who is entering into the contract to tick a series of boxes (ie that they have read all of the terms and conditions and understand them; that they realise by returning the document to us they will be entering into a legally binding contract; and they also check a box in lieu of a hand-written signature if they are returning the document electronically. In addition, the terms and conditions provide that where the customer is a company, the person 'signing' on behalf of that company has authority so to do.)

The fact that it is tick boxes rather than a signature is perfectly acceptable: the Electronic Communications Act 2000 makes provision for this. Think about all those times online when you've been asked to tick a box to confirm your agreement to T&Cs before you are allowed to proceed. All those major companies would not be doing it if they thought they couldn't enforce their contracts with their customers.

Yes, you have a situation where you would have to employ experts and spend money if the customer denied that it was them who sent it, but you would be in exactly the same position if a customer denied signing a hard copy. In any event, you also have supplementary evidence - eg an easily traceable audit trail for the money! They would have to argue that someone stole their credit card / cheque book as well!

We've had customers booking from USA, Canada, Australia, Dubai, and Europe..... partly because we offered the facility for them to do it all online.

[CRAZY K]

We do most of our contracts and payments electronically these days (Customers still have the option of which method they want to use, but most of ours are going the electronic route, and the percentage seems to be increasing all the time). Am I worried about an electronic version of a contract being as good as a hard copy? In word, no.

We get the person who is entering into the contract to tick a series of boxes (ie that they have read all of the terms and conditions and understand them; that they realise by returning the document to us they will be entering into a legally binding contract; and they also check a box in lieu of a hand-written signature if they are returning the document electronically. In addition, the terms and conditions provide that where the customer is a company, the person 'signing' on behalf of that company has authority so to do.)

The fact that it is tick boxes rather than a signature is perfectly acceptable: the Electronic Communications Act 2000 makes provision for this. Think about all those times online when you've been asked to tick a box to confirm your agreement to T&Cs before you are allowed to proceed. All those major companies would not be doing it if they thought they couldn't enforce their contracts with their customers.

Yes, you have a situation where you would have to employ experts and spend money if the customer denied that it was them who sent it, but you would be in exactly the same position if a customer denied signing a hard copy. In any event, you also have supplementary evidence - eg an easily traceable audit trail for the money! They would have to argue that someone stole their credit card / cheque book as well!

We've had customers booking from USA, Canada, Australia, Dubai, and Europe..... partly because we offered the facility for them to do it all online.

Thanks Angela, I will give a ring next week to pick your brains on the Contract wording---:D

CRAZY K

[Corabar Entertainment]

No problem Alan ;)

[Have a disco]

Regardless of Payment this wording validates the contract wether sent via email or post it is valid in court......

Please Note that whilst you are requested to sign and return this contract, failure to do so is not sufficient to cancel this contract or to disregard any of the terms and conditions contained within this contract. Therefore unless a written objection is received by this office within pm seven days from the date of issue the contract is assumed to be confirmed

Its in my T & C's

[Corabar Entertainment]

Sorry, Badger, we've had this conversation before: that wording is meaningless unless you can PROVE that they have seen the contract and read it. How do you prove that? You get them to 'sign' (either physically or electronically)!

...and it can't be 'regardless of payment', because if that were true, under your interpretation, if you sent out a copy of a contract, they would be legally bound in 7 days by taking no action!!!!!!!

[PropellerHeadCase]

Also worth noting that from a legal stand point (and I'm sure Angela or my wife will correct me if I'm wrong) if the terms and conditions are supplied as part of the information sent out you can state that payment of the deposit secures the date booked and, even without a signed contract, is deemed as acceptance of the terms of service as layed out in the Ts & Cs.

I wrote the above before trhe subsequent posts... in answer to them:

If the client fails to read the terms and conditions that doesn't void them, in much the same way that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", also in the same way that banking a cheque for less than the full amount owing can be seen to be an acceptance of the short amount as full and final payment.

[Have a disco]

If the booking is agreed verbally beforehand it is classed as a valid booking The documentation just backs it up. It stands up in County courts as a verbal agreement

Please note I do now state that no return of deposit or paperwork means no booking if paperwork not recieved within 7 days.

Most of my clints now deal with me via email as well as Postal services and I also chase them. as most contracts are sent via email now and I keep a record of dates they were sent via email and post. They are stored upon my computer and sent via recorded delivery. So no excuses are valid in court. The clint has to pay the deposit whatever if not the whole fee

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

If the booking is agreed verbally beforehand it is classed as a valid booking The documentation just backs it up. It stands up in County courts as a verbal agreement

So you reckon you could take someone to court having only agreed verbally? Surely it would their word against yours?

[Corabar Entertainment]

You can form a contract (other than a contract for land, which is different) without ever having put pen to paper (ie a verbal contract is legally binding), but where you come unstuck is PROVING the terms of that contract.

EG If you had a conversation with a customer, gave them a quote, etc and then sent them a contract in the post, and a while later you received a cheque for a deposit and took that as confirmation that they accept your T&Cs, where is your evidence that you ever sent that contract or that they received it? This is an instance where electronic documents actually make it EASIER to prove a contract was formed, but being a typical laywer, we always opt for the 'belt and braces' approach to try and remove ALL doubts, and we make it clear that no booking is confirmed until we have BOTH the deposit AND the 'signed', completed Booking Form

[Corabar Steve]

The clint has to pay the deposit whatever if not the whole fee

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/dirty-harry-2-795959.jpg

Go ahead punk do my party. :sj:




Yeah, yeah, I know :offtopic: :sorry:

[Corabar Entertainment]

See you've edited your post to include....
Please note I do now state that no return of deposit or paperwork means no booking if paperwork not recieved within 7 days.

Most of my clints now deal with me via email as well as Postal services and I also chase them. as most contracts are sent via email now and I keep a record of dates they were sent via email and post. They are stored upon my computer and sent via recorded delivery. So no excuses are valid in court. The clint has to pay the deposit whatever if not the whole fee after I posted...
You can form a contract (other than a contract for land, which is different) without ever having put pen to paper (ie a verbal contract is legally binding), but where you come unstuck is PROVING the terms of that contract.

EG If you had a conversation with a customer, gave them a quote, etc and then sent them a contract in the post, and a while later you received a cheque for a deposit and took that as confirmation that they accept your T&Cs, where is your evidence that you ever sent that contract or that they received it? This is an instance where electronic documents actually make it EASIER to prove a contract was formed, but being a typical laywer, we always opt for the 'belt and braces' approach to try and remove ALL doubts, and we make it clear that no booking is confirmed until we have BOTH the deposit AND the 'signed', completed Booking FormOK - if you are sending everything by recorded delivery, etc, you may have a decent chance of that working in a litigious situation, but, I'll give you an example that I actually came across last week:-

A sends something to B via recorded delivery.
B denies receiving anything
A contacts Royal Mail who produce 'signed for' slip
B says 'Who signed that? That's not me, or anyone who lives with me!'
Turns out postman delivered it to the WRONG address, but the person there just signed for it. They do not know where they delivered it to, or who signed for it, and they don't care.... so long as they have a signature!!!

IMO - Why take the risk? They have to communicate with you to get the deposit to you, so why not INSIST on the contract?

[Have a disco]

So you reckon you could take someone to court having only agreed verbally? Surely it would their word against yours?


As long as you have their telephone number and any recorded proof of conversation requesting your services ie answer message, as well as proof of you phoning them to confirm your booking (ie your phone bill) you have a very good case, plus you can also ask for there phone call records in court. but only if you have sent the the original documentation sent via recorded delivery to the client wether via postal service, or you have proof of sending the email to them and any other corespondance they have sent you.

Most customers sent a threat of a CCJ will soon pay up immediately. I have dealt with a small pub group and several customers in the past. The small pub group were my favourite conquest they were willing to fight it out till a judge told the they didnt have a leg to stand upon. So they settled out of court during a recess with their tales between there legs.....

as stated before No confirmation of deposit recieved or paperwork leaves them with them no disco. Otherwise booking is classed as BOOKED

hence (25% non returnable deposit requires immediate payment, no deposit no disco) is within the terms as well as

(Cheques will only be accepted by prior arrangement and must be accompanied by a cheque guarantee card ) covers anything late

My whole terms and conditions are ROCK SOLID

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

As long as you have their telephone number and any recorded proof of conversation requesting your services ie answer message, as well as proof of you phoning them to confirm you booking (ie your phone bill) you have a very good case.

So that's a no then.

You're hardly likely to keep an anwer phone message after you're rung someone and a phone bill is hardly proof of anything is it? You could have rung them and they could say that they weren't interested, even if they did verbally agree.

[Have a disco]

To be honest guys Its a very rare thing to even take things any further than an arguement as to where the deposit is

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

To be honest guys Its a very rare thing to even take things any further than an arguement as to where the deposit is

Fair enough, but I was just wondering about the practicality of what you were saying.

[rob1963]

Just wondered if this has made anyone consider trying to stop using pigeon post completely to avoid the current problem?

Although we can take payment via bank transfer & email contracts & booking forms to customers, I don't see how we can avoid snail mail, as we need to have a signed booking form or contract from the client.

I believe this should be an original signature, and I don't think an email or fax is acceptable.

When I worked in a bank, we were not able to accept instructions via email or fax, although I'm not an expert on legal matters, so I could be wrong.

[Have a disco]

I believe fax is very acceptable as it is simular to a photo copy of there signature as long as a copy has been faxed but good point

Also you can now add a copy of your signature to emails. I have done it in the recent past via aol and it was accepted there are tools you can use to do this and it has as much clout as the written hand

[rob1963]

I believe fax is very acceptable as it is simular to a photo copy of there signature as long as a copy has been faxed

I'm not sure about that. I know it's similar to a photo copy, but the bank didn't accept photo copies of letters either...only originals. The problem with faxes or photocopies is that they can be forged in a few minutes by anyone with access to a photocopier. All you have to do is type a fake letter pretending to be from someone else, stick a bit of paper with their signature at the bottom & photocopy it. That's why the bank only accepted instructions with an original signature.


Also you can now add a copy of your signature to emails. I have done it in the recent past via aol and it was accepted there are tools you can use to do this and it has as much clout as the written hand

I'm not sure about this either. Couldn't you just deny having sent the email & suggest that someone else had sent it using your computer?

However, if there is a letter with your original signature, it's much harder to deny!

[Have a disco]

Afraid as usual banks are usually the last to change there ways note the overcharging on fees incidents with everyone claiming back from them recently???? An internet signature could be done on a signature pad everytime as new????

[DK Karaoke]

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/dirty-harry-2-795959.jpg

Go ahead punk do my party. :sj:




Yeah, yeah, I know :offtopic: :sorry:

Bril, Bril, :lol: :lol:

[BeerFunk]

I know it's semi-off topic, but... after 7 days without any post delivered, what lands on my mat this morning?

Three items of junk mail! :mad:

[rob1963]

I know it's semi-off topic, but... after 7 days without any post delivered, what lands on my mat this morning?

Three items of junk mail! :mad:

Beerfunk, at least you received SOMETHING!

I'm awaiting 3 deposits, and what did I receive this morning?

Not a sausage!

:(

[Tom]

i got mail. just a stament to show what money i dont have (rubbing it in really) and a bill. :(.

sorry its off topic. just wanted to join in

[Vectis]

and what did I receive this morning?

Not a sausage!


Go on then, I give up. What?

[Corabar Steve]

Go on then, I give up. What?

http://planetsmilies.net/sign-smiley-438.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[CRAZY K]

Thanks Angela, I will give a ring next week to pick your brains on the Contract wording---:D

CRAZY K

The future of the post looks a bit bleak for the next few weeks, a lot of it is unlikely to ever turn up:eek:

Just taken another Wedding Booking--I think Ill be on the phone this morning Angela :D

CRAZY K

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I've had nothing for a week now and am getting slightly annoyed.

[Have a disco]

Amazing how they can deliver junk mail above the real mail first GGGGRRRR

[BeerFunk]

I've had nothing for a week now and am getting slightly annoyed.Me too :( I suspect that a lot of it will never arrive, which is a shame because Royal Mail have always been solid, for me anyway.


Amazing how they can deliver junk mail above the real mail first GGGGRRRR
I know! Apparently they get paid a fair bit to do it though. I read somewhere once about a guy who saved a massive pile of it up, and took it to one of the company's offices and dumped it there. I think we should all do that!

[CRAZY K]

I've had nothing for a week now and am getting slightly annoyed.

Ill bet you are--- running a full time pro DJ and Hire business :eek:

I have as from today started to try and do all business without the post office.

I wonder how many other business people are thinking the same.

Have asked the customer who has just booked a Wedding if they have any problems with tranferring the non refundable booking fee ( deposit ) by bank transfer and hopefully I will be sorting out how to deal with contracts by email.

Not EVERY client will be able to cope--but I think a lot will especially for online enquiries.

Im tired of being held to ransom by Government and Unions---whatever their grievances--Spanish practices---id better stop now:(

Nuff said---spose there is another advantage---your cheques in the post ---becomes a thing of the past:D

CRAZY K

[CRAZY K]

Ill bet you are--- running a full time pro DJ and Hire business :eek:

I have as from today started to try and do all business without the post office.

I wonder how many other business people are thinking the same.

Have asked the customer who has just booked a Wedding if they have any problems with tranferring the non refundable booking fee ( deposit ) by bank transfer and hopefully I will be sorting out how to deal with contracts by email.

Not EVERY client will be able to cope--but I think a lot will especially for online enquiries.

Im tired of being held to ransom by Government and Unions---whatever their grievances--Spanish practices---id better stop now:(

Nuff said---spose there is another advantage---your cheques in the post ---becomes a thing of the past:D

CRAZY K

Oh good--post has arrived.

No cheques--no Contracts---plenty of bills to pay though:eek:

CRAZY K

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Oh good--post has arrived.

No cheques--no Contracts---plenty of bills to pay though:eek:

CRAZY K

Still nothing here.

I wondering whether to ring the PO up to see what's happening, but then I know I'm going to be on hold for ages, so I don't think I'll bother.

[PropellerHeadCase]

Is internet banking, or more specifically electronic cheque/interbank transfer facilities, not available in the UK?

I mean, I know that New Zealanders are often early adopters of new technology but my bank's on-line banking system is celebrating its 10th anniversary this year.

[CRAZY K]

Is internet banking, or more specifically electronic cheque/interbank transfer facilities, not available in the UK?

I mean, I know that New Zealanders are often early adopters of new technology but my bank's on-line banking system is celebrating its 10th anniversary this year.

Yes its available but it seems old habits die hard here!!!!!!!!!!!

Just asked a client to send a deposit by bank transfer ( if they wished )

Nope---want to send a cheque after they have read the Contract.

All at a time when the post is a nightmare here :bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K

[Corabar Steve]

Alan, Angela said She'll call you tomorrow. She got caught up in a lot of things this evening.

[PropellerHeadCase]

I take it you mean him, not me :D

[CRAZY K]

Alan, Angela said She'll call you tomorrow. She got caught up in a lot of things this evening.

Thanks--not urgent now and I will be out a bit today anyway--

Alan
CRAzy k