Marquees-Safety issue?

[scoopd]

Been asked to do a gig in a marquee next year and have some obvious concerns about rain/power etc.Just wondering if most people do gigs in marquees and what critera you lay down?

Cheers


Scoopd

[Tom]

just buy a really big plastic sheet, cover it all and RUN. :lol:


sorry. this is a good question as im yet to experiance this.

[Sam]

Been asked to do a gig in a marquee next year and have some obvious concerns about rain/power etc.Just wondering if most people do gigs in marquees and what critera you lay down?

Cheers


Scoopd



depends if it has sides or not..!
Most marquees are fine.. and a lot of weddings happen in them!
Never had any trouble so far.. apart from un-even flooring... and having to be careful that your lights are well clear of the roof.. which always seems to be much lower where they want the disco :rolleyes:

[super-hero]

If it's a professional marquee then rain shouldn't be a problem.

Get yourself a decent extension cable that you can use outside. Plug it in yourself, and put a notice on the plug "DO NOT REMOVE". Try not to plug it in where someone is likely to unplug it. Kitchens etc.

You can then run the cable to the marquee, making sure people will not trip over it.

Always check with the client at the time of booking that you will have access to power. Otherwise you will have to charge them for generator hire.

[Sam]

If it's a professional marquee then rain shouldn't be a problem.

Get yourself a decent extension cable that you can use outside. Plug it in yourself, and put a notice on the plug "DO NOT REMOVE". Try not to plug it in where someone is likely to unplug it. Kitchens etc.

You can then run the cable to the marquee, making sure people will not trip over it.

Always check with the client at the time of booking that you will have access to power. Otherwise you will have to charge them for generator hire.

Although it is also worth trying to get the client to pre-sort the power supply.
Many marquee hire companies do it.. and will set up the power lines to the points asked for by the client.. ie. where they want the disco to go

[Dragonfly]

having come very unstuck on this one earlier in the year my advice would be to go and have a look the day before or maybe two as the marquees ive worked in this year were in place on say the wednesday or thursday before hand if not earlier......and make sure your t and cs are water tight excuse the pun when it comes to working in marquees.

i love marquee gigs when done properly but just make sure its not a gazebo at the bottom of the garden.

[Tom]

Although it is also worth trying to get the client to pre-sort the power supply.
Many marquee hire companies do it.. and will set up the power lines to the points asked for by the client.. ie. where they want the disco to go

this is in my t&c

3. A minimum of 1 hour should be allocated for setting up and dismantling of equipment. The client should also ensure there are a minimum of two 13amp uk sockets within close proximity

[CRAZY K]

having come very unstuck on this one earlier in the year my advice would be to go and have a look the day before or maybe two as the marquees ive worked in this year were in place on say the wednesday or thursday before hand if not earlier......and make sure your t and cs are water tight excuse the pun when it comes to working in marquees.

i love marquee gigs when done properly but just make sure its not a gazebo at the bottom of the garden.

You need to get your head round power requirements for your Disco--especially if you have a lot of lights.

i.e the handling power needed in amps and whether your lead to the power supply is adequate, correctly fused and that your not plugging into the circuit they have the tea urn plugged into OR IN MY CASE THE RODEO BULL :eek: :eek: BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the fuse gone!

If relying on generators be VERY careful---we had someone on here who lost
their complete rig one night this year---BANG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats thousands of pounds worth of damage.

Handled professionally and by competent people its fine---otherwise its not fine!:bang: :bang: :bang:

I would speak to your local DJ shop or PAT tester company for advice--they will know the ropes--I often do and its worthwhile.

If you dont have either of those---get one!

CRAZY K

[scoopd]

I'm losing interest in this one already! Not sure now if i should take the booking:confused:

[Sam]

I'm losing interest in this one already! Not sure now if i should take the booking:confused:

i think details is key.. you have not really given us many :-)

Whilst the 'power' concerns of sharing with the tea urn are very true... it is certainly not just in marquees.. it could be the case in any venue and you always need to be careful about the power provided.. and what you require.

Like we said marquees are usually fine.. and i love them (always think they are better for lighting and atmosphere)...

I suggest you talk to the client.. and ask for details of the marquee company.
Speak to the marquee guys.. and if you are still worried ask to check out one of their 'tents at a event.. and they will help you out i'm sure.

[scoopd]

I haven't given many details as I don't have many from the client yet.All very useful if a little scary advice.
Thanks guys

[Excalibur]

Although it is also worth trying to get the client to pre-sort the power supply.
Many marquee hire companies do it.. and will set up the power lines to the points asked for by the client.. ie. where they want the disco to go

On a good day you will find a huge distribution board with individually switched and protected circuits clearly marked. :D :D :D :D

On a bad day, if you are lucky, there will be a tangle of wires, fed from the house six hundred yards away by a relay of extension cables. ( All plugged into a four-way inside the house!) :bang:

Most of us have had both extremes I suspect.
If you are being fed by a generator, surge protection helps, and make sure it's big enough, and earthed. :eek:

[Excalibur]

this is in my t&c

3. A minimum of 1 hour should be allocated for setting up and dismantling of equipment. The client should also ensure there are a minimum of two 13amp uk sockets within close proximity

With respect, that doesn't specify what the sockets are to be fed with!
( unless you mean ring main sockets). Just a thought. As I read it, a £70 genny, or a 3amp extension cable could fulfill your requirements.

[Excalibur]

You need to get your head round power requirements for your Disco--especially if you have a lot of lights.

i.e the handling power needed in amps and whether your lead to the power supply is adequate, correctly fused and that your not plugging into the circuit they have the tea urn plugged into OR IN MY CASE THE RODEO BULL :eek: :eek: BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the fuse gone!

If relying on generators be VERY careful---we had someone on here who lost
their complete rig one night this year---BANG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats thousands of pounds worth of damage.

Handled professionally and by competent people its fine---otherwise its not fine!:bang: :bang: :bang:

I would speak to your local DJ shop or PAT tester company for advice--they will know the ropes--I often do and its worthwhile.

If you dont have either of those---get one!

CRAZY K


Caterers industrial ovens are best on someone else's supply also!:D

And Bands!

And in fact everything else except me, while I'm at it!

[Excalibur]

I haven't given many details as I don't have many from the client yet.All very useful if a little scary advice.
Thanks guys

Don't panic, Mr Mainwaring! Check it out beforehand, and you should be fine. My best gig this year was Marquee and generator. We can all be little
Cassandra's sometimes.

[CRAZY K]

With respect, that doesn't specify what the sockets are to be fed with!
( unless you mean ring main sockets). Just a thought. As I read it, a £70 genny, or a 3amp extension cable could fulfill your requirements.

Give me a ring if you need some advice Scoop--after you know EXACTLY what the set up is going to be--but generally it changes anyway--my last words to the Groom a few weeks ago were---please get me a mains lead available that will handle 10 amps-- that will be plenty.

When I got there the Marquee Catering Manager said--oh we dont have any long leads they said you would probably have one---COUNT TO TEN:eek:

Ah--ok I have one that might just be long enough--it was --just--I left my serious Marquee lead at home as I thought these people were organised professionals---nah--that was me!:D

CRAZY K

[Vectis]

I left my serious Marquee lead at home as I thought these people were organised professionals---nah--that was me!:D


You spotted the "Bad Assumptions" threat in the Mobile Disco forum Alan? :devil:

[A1DL]

As far as power is concerned, it's always a good bet to trace the cable/s back to the distro/genny..... things aren't always what they may at first look to be :eek:

many (but not all) marquee companies are great as far as the tent and furniture are concerned, but don't full understand the electrics, also outside caterers (who come along after the marquee or power providers have gone offsite) are renowned for nicking more cees than allocated when power is planned. There's always an "extra" urn (or three).....

One job last month, we had specifically requested a clean 32 SPNE, got onsite and found no 32 but twin 13s, traced them back to find they were on a shared 16, 1.5mil, split a couple of times upstream (sharing with bar, some garden lighting and electric starters for heating)

Also the amount of times marquee companies are guilty of using unprotected 32 to 2x16 splitters, which in a fault condition could be very dangerous.

Then there's those who think it's OK to use d0m3stic 13a extension reels for outdoor use.

Power & distro can be a bit of a minefield.

[Excalibur]

You spotted the "Bad Assumptions" threat in the Mobile Disco forum Alan? :devil:

You mean assuming there will be a power supply is not a guarantee of one?:confused: :bang:

[Excalibur]

As far as power is concerned, it's always a good bet to trace the cable/s back to the distro/genny..... things aren't always what they may at first look to be :eek:

many (but not all) marquee companies are great as far as the tent and furniture are concerned, but don't full understand the electrics, also outside caterers (who come along after the marquee or power providers have gone offsite) are renowned for nicking more cees than allocated when power is planned. There's always an "extra" urn (or three).....

One job last month, we had specifically requested a clean 32 SPNE, got onsite and found no 32 but twin 13s, traced them back to find they were on a shared 16, 1.5mil, split a couple of times upstream (sharing with bar, some garden lighting and electric starters for heating)

Also the amount of times marquee companies are guilty of using unprotected 32 to 2x16 splitters, which in a fault condition could be very dangerous.

Then there's those who think it's OK to use d0m3stic 13a extension reels for outdoor use.

Power & distro can be a bit of a minefield.


Seen nearly all of those! Must be getting old!

[Tom]

With respect, that doesn't specify what the sockets are to be fed with!
( unless you mean ring main sockets).

as most of my gigs are indoors then you got it right.

[Excalibur]

as most of my gigs are indoors then you got it right.

But my point is, that T & C's don't say ring main. You (we) assume ring main, but a 3amp cable with two sockets at the end appears to fulfill your requirements. One day, someone will run one for you as a power supply, believe me!

[Tom]

ok. cheers. ill change that now. but would the public under stand that though???

[Excalibur]

ok. cheers. ill change that now. but would the public under stand that though???

Probably not, I'm just being a pedant, and saying that we all make assumptions, because we know what we need. Some customers don't! :bang:
I wasn't getting at you, or anyone, just highlighting how problems can occur.

[Excalibur]

as most of my gigs are indoors then you got it right.

BTW I once worked in a place where you could have had five ring main sockets, and you still wouldn't have got one volt!:eek:

[Tom]

i know it wasnt a dig, just advice. :) but if i as doing a marquee i would run cables myself so i know i am getting the power i require which is safe.

13a standard plug to 32a female ceeform socket which is then downgraded to 8 uk, 13a sockets. if you get me. done this was as i have never used a genny before and not to sure if i should trust them at all. if i have made this wrong then please correct me.

[A1DL]

13a standard plug to 32a female ceeform socket which is then downgraded to 8 uk, 13a sockets. if you get me. done this was as i have never used a genny before and not to sure if i should trust them at all. if i have made this wrong then please correct me.

Tom, IIRC we've discussed this before on here.

I take it you mean 13a plugtop to 32a ceeform socket (no problem there) and then 32a plug to 8x13a sockets?

If I've interpreted you correctly, please explain the latter to me, in terms of what mcb protection you have in place, cable csa, rating of the 8x13a assembly, etc

(I'm thinking these points in terms of when this lead is or could be connected to a 32a supply)

[Excalibur]

i know it wasnt a dig, just advice. :) but if i as doing a marquee i would run cables myself so i know i am getting the power i require which is safe.

13a standard plug to 32a female ceeform socket which is then downgraded to 8 uk, 13a sockets. if you get me. done this was as i have never used a genny before and not to sure if i should trust them at all. if i have made this wrong then please correct me.

Regardless of the intermediate connectors, that is eight 13amp fed from one 13amp. Not a recipe for disaster, but a possible hitch.

[A1DL]

Regardless of the intermediate connectors, that is eight 13amp fed from one 13amp. Not a recipe for disaster, but a possible hitch.

I'm thinking if/when the two cables become separated and the 32a to 8x13a part becomes connected to a 32a supply. That could be a recipe for disaster.

[Excalibur]

I'm thinking if/when the two cables become separated and the 32a to 8x13a part becomes connected to a 32a supply.

Good point there, Sir. Well made. My error in making one of the assumptions I was warning about! The biter bit, eh?:(

[Tom]

Tom, IIRC we've discussed this before on here.

I take it you mean 13a plugtop to 32a ceeform socket (no problem there) and then 32a plug to 8x13a sockets?

If I've interpreted you correctly, please explain the latter to me, in terms of what mcb protection you have in place, cable csa, rating of the 8x13a assembly, etc

(I'm thinking these points in terms of when this lead is or could be connected to a 32a supply)

i know. im sorry. thats what i mean :( i knew what i ment but it didnt come out how i was thinking it.

and as for Excalibur, i wont use all 8, because of total amps and watts which is 13a and i think its about 3000 watts. so in total i would have 16a and 6000 watts of power to plug all of my equipment into with out a problem :confused:

[Excalibur]

i know. im sorry. thats what i mean :( i knew what i ment but it didnt come out how i was thinking it.

and as for Excalibur, i wont use all 8, because of total amps and watts which is 13a and i think its about 300 watts. so in total i would have 16a and 6000 watts of power to plug all of my equipment into with out a problem :confused:

Unless I'm missing something fairly obvious, you said power comes from a 13amp plug. At extremes, you could plug a 3kw appliance into one socket( could be a heater, you might be cold in this weather) which takes care of over 12 amps! Doesn't leave much for the other seven, does it?


BTW , if you are actually feeding it with a 16amp ceeform, that is 4000w, or 4Kw, NOT 6000!!

[A1DL]

i know. im sorry. thats what i mean :( i knew what i ment but it didnt come out how i was thinking it.

and as for Excalibur, i wont use all 8, because of total amps and watts which is 13a and i think its about 3000 watts. so in total i would have 16a and 6000 watts of power to plug all of my equipment into with out a problem :confused:

in the scenario described you would have 3,120w capacity (13a x 240v)

you would not have 16a as your plugtop at the start of the chain is limited to 13a

and where does 6,000w come from?:confused:

also, you haven't answered my question regarding the 32a to 8x13a lead

[Excalibur]

in the scenario described you would have 3,120w capacity (13a x 240v)

you would not have 16a as your plugtop at the start of the chain is limited to 13a

and where does 6,000w come from?:confused:

also, you haven't answered my question regarding the 32a to 8x13a lead

My point exactly, just better put!

[A1DL]

My point exactly, just better put!

yeah, but you beat me to it LOL :D

[Excalibur]

yeah, but you beat me to it LOL :D

Faster than a speeding bullet, me!


( Believe that, and you can knit fog! );)

[Tom]

i should of said this first. i was to have 2x rack mount power inputs with ceeform input and 8 socket each. i thought that a normal house socket was 13a and could carry about 3000 watts.


so in total i would have 2x leads from source into the 2 rack mount power inputs then all my gear is plugged into the back of them. this is what i mean

2x http://www.kelseyweb.co.uk/products/ACPower/pwrdist1.htm the 32a version

and the leads to go with this.

[Excalibur]

i should of said this first. i was to have 2x rack mount power inputs with ceeform input and 8 socket each. i thought that a normal house socket was 13a and could carry about 3000 watts.


so in total i would have 2x leads from source into the 2 rack mount power inputs then all my gear is plugged into the back of them. this is what i mean

2x http://www.kelseyweb.co.uk/products/ACPower/pwrdist1.htm the 32a version

and the leads to go with this.

If Tony doesn't beat me to this, I'd go with two 16Amp, not 32, closer to current capacity. Also, RCD'S would enhance this ( and your safety) quite a lot!

[Tom]

if i remember in studiospares the 16a and 32a there is only a few quid difference so i thought of going for the 32a? but i dont know much about this kind of power so its best if poeple like yourself.

also what kind of cable should i be looking at???

sorry its going off topic :(

[A1DL]

looking at the pictures of those Kelsey units, I don't like the IEC versions as I can't see that there is any protection on the outlets

IEC320-C14 connectors are only rated to 10a, and there only appears to ba a single MCB on those units offering total overload protection, i.e. it would be easily possible to overload the individual outlets.

[A1DL]

also what kind of cable should i be looking at???


for 32a ideally 6mm2 HO7RNF, although 4mm2 will be OK for short runs
for 16a use 2.5mm2 HO7RNF

[Excalibur]

if i remember in studiospares the 16a and 32a there is only a few quid difference so i thought of going for the 32a? but i dont know much about this kind of power so its best if poeple like yourself.

also what kind of cable should i be looking at???

sorry its going off topic :(

In a perfect world, you would have a descending power capacity. By feeding a 13amp fuse into a 32, you make it a certainty that if you overloaded the sockets, then the 13amp fuse would go, probably taking ages to get to and repair. If it were fed by the correct ceeform, then the easily accessible trip on the front of the unit could be reset as soon as the load was reduced. Can you see where I'm coming from? Come on Tony, explain it accurately, you obviously have a good grounding in this. I just know what's acceptable, what's likely to fail, and what's downright dangerous!

Well done, you got there first this time.

[Tom]

so if i have a 25m stretch of cable, what should i look at then. sorry :(

[Excalibur]

for 32a ideally 6mm2 HO7RNF, although 4mm2 will be OK for short runs
for 16a use 2.5mm2 HO7RNF

You may have to clarify that, I suspect. Sort of like, Heavy, Very heavy, and Good grief that's heavy! Sorry, couldnt resist it!:)

[A1DL]

You may have to clarify that, I suspect. Sort of like, Heavy, Very heavy, and Good grief that's heavy! Sorry, couldnt resist it!:)


errrmmmmm, OK, here goes:
(I've only included the ones we use regularly)

2.5mm2 SPNE HO7 = 2.3kg/m (light)

4.0mm2 SPNE HO7 = 3kg/m (OK)

6.0mm2 SPNE HO7 = 5kg/m (heavy if tired)

16.0mm2 SPNE H07 = 10kg/m (always heavy)

16.0mm2 TPNE HO7 = 15kg/100m (*?%$**? heavy, moreso at 3.00am in a field when it's p-ing down with rain)

[A1DL]

so if i have a 25m stretch of cable, what should i look at then. sorry :(

Haven't I answered that question in post 41, Tom?

[A1DL]

In a perfect world, you would have a descending power capacity. By feeding a 13amp fuse into a 32, you make it a certainty that if you overloaded the sockets, then the 13amp fuse would go, probably taking ages to get to and repair. If it were fed by the correct ceeform, then the easily accessible trip on the front of the unit could be reset as soon as the load was reduced. Can you see where I'm coming from? Come on Tony, explain it accurately, you obviously have a good grounding in this. I just know what's acceptable, what's likely to fail, and what's downright dangerous!

Well done, you got there first this time.

Spot on Peter, where there's a 13a plugtop the fuse will offer overload protection. However there are a number of other connectors commonly used in the industry which have no fuse and therefore rely on the correct protection at the point of distribution.

The 32a to 2x16a splitter lead I referred to earlier in the thread is dangerous as in a fault condition could pull 32a through 1.5mil cable and a connector only rated to 16a.

IEC320-C13 and C14 connectors are only rated to 10a, so putting them in front of an unprotected 32a supply is similarly dangerous.

Whenever stepping down there should be protection in place. However no protection is required when stepping up - An exagerated example - and a rather useless jumper - a 13a plugtop to 125a ceeform socket is quite safe as it is protected by the fuse in the 13a plugtop. In fact the only poor point about this jumper is the huge cord grip on the 125 cee won't hold the tiny 1.5mm2 cable! Now I only know that as I've got one amongst my collection of PAT testing adapters ;)

[Excalibur]

errrmmmmm, OK, here goes:
(I've only included the ones we use regularly)

2.5mm2 SPNE HO7 = 2.3kg/m (light)

4.0mm2 SPNE HO7 = 3kg/m (OK)

6.0mm2 SPNE HO7 = 5kg/m (heavy if tired)

16.0mm2 SPNE H07 = 10kg/m (always heavy)

16.0mm2 TPNE HO7 = 15kg/100m (*?%$**? heavy, moreso at 3.00am in a field when it's p-ing down with rain)

Well done, but back to serious mode, I more meant what the Acronyms were? I would guess SPNE = Single Phase, but NE ? ( Neutral and Earth ? )And the HO7. I would know what to look for, but am short on terminology.
Really seriously, I reckon you need some local Professional advice Tom. Tony has been bang on in everything so far, but there is a limit to long distance advice. ( There certainly is if I'm involved! ):D Good luck.

Quote from A1DL
Looking at the pictures of those Kelsey units, I don't like the IEC versions as I can't see that there is any protection on the outlets

IEC320-C14 connectors are only rated to 10a, and there only appears to ba a single MCB on those units offering total overload protection, i.e. it would be easily possible to overload the individual outlets.


I too thought that, but wasn't sure enough to say. Don't like one trip controlling so many outlets together. I always like to split up as much as sensibly possible. Not too many eggs in one basket.;) I seem to think that there are other people who would custom build a distribution board for folks.
( But I don't know who or where without searching)

[Tom]

i always thought this idea ofadding power into the rack was much safer than a standard 1U power conditioner.

[A1DL]

Well done, but back to serious mode, I more meant what the Acronyms were? I would guess SPNE = Single Phase, but NE ? ( Neutral and Earth ? )And the HO7. I would know what to look for, but am short on terminology.

SPNE = single pole, neutral & earth

TPNE = three pole, neutral & earth

TPE = three pole & earth (you're unlikely to find this one in the entertainment industry - you'll see its on industrial 3phase motors where the load is always equally balanced across all phases therefore doesn't require a neutral)

HO7 RNF =

H - "harmonised" - the cable is manufactured to a European Standard

07 - 07 means the cable is rated to 450/750 volts.

R = the insulation of natural rubber.

N = the outer sheath is of Polychloroprene (PCP)

F = the cable is of the flexible type.



I seem to think that there are other people who would custom build a distribution board for folks.

( But I don't know who or where without searching)

There are several, I would always recommend Rubber Box. They're not cheap but their products are the best you can buy and their after-sales customer service second to none.
http://www.rubberbox.co.uk/index.html

[Paul James Promotions]

Tony, do you know of any online shops that offer CEE connectors at a good price?

[A1DL]

Tony, do you know of any online shops that offer CEE connectors at a good price?

Hi Jamie, we always buy from City, they are possibly not the cheapest but the rep delivers next day and we have an account there so it's easier.

Looking back through recent POs - paid 17.10 for 63a SPNE IP67 plugs and 22.00 for 63a SPNE IP67 sockets recently - seems reasonable and they're Geweiss.

Tony

[Excalibur]

SPNE = single pole, neutral & earth

TPNE = three pole, neutral & earth

TPE = three pole & earth (you're unlikely to find this one in the entertainment industry - you'll see its on industrial 3phase motors where the load is always equally balanced across all phases therefore doesn't require a neutral)

HO7 RNF =

H - "harmonised" - the cable is manufactured to a European Standard

07 - 07 means the cable is rated to 450/750 volts.

R = the insulation of natural rubber.

N = the outer sheath is of Polychloroprene (PCP)

F = the cable is of the flexible type.




There are several, I would always recommend Rubber Box. They're not cheap but their products are the best you can buy and their after-sales customer service second to none.
http://www.rubberbox.co.uk/index.html

Thank you for that one, Sir. That shines a lot of light on things.

TPE, I'm quite used to, as I used to see it a lot on farms. I thought it was being superseded by TPNE, though I could be wrong.

[Excalibur]

- seems reasonable and they're Geweiss.

Tony

Is that German for good? :p

[A1DL]

Is that German for good? :p

nein, das ist gut, sehr gut :cool:

[max_stuart]

We have a marquee business and if the marquee is done properly then it was be completely rain free. You will need to find out from the client what exactly it is they are going for and if the marquee provider will be supplying power to it through a genorator. At the end of the day if you are told it will be 100% safe in its not then you don't do the job.. I am pretty sure thats a good reason for taking a deposits.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Unfortunately, a deposit wouldn't cover any way near cover damage to equipment (the entire fee wouldn't do that!) - but I take your point. :)