licensing ideas

[DJWayne]

Ok i see the DJ license has reared its head againon the forum so i wanted to psot this and see what people think.

My idea for a DJ license would be as follows , maybe not everyones cup of tea but here goes.

Make the DJ license a requirement of the premises license in the same way that venues have to use licensed doormen they would be fored to use licensed DJ's. Failure to do so would result in a fine or even loss of license.

As part of the licensing process DJ's would have to provide PLI and PAT certs to comply with the law and be subject to a CRB check to meet the terms of the license.

The license would allow DJ's to play music in ANY format from any device and obtained from any source that they feel comfortable without fear of MCPS breathing down their necks.

In my opinion if this was a possibility i would be prepared to pay what some people would class as a considerably high annual fee to make this a reality. I think this would put a lot of your "joe bloggs down the road will do it for £50" discos out of business and put the control of pricing back in the hands of the DJ's themselves. The benefits to the entertainment industry would be that they could book DJ's safe in the knowledge as long as they have a current license the venue is not leaving itself open to any legal challenge.

A system like this would police itself and could be dealt with by the local licensing department as they already spot check doormen on a regular basis its not rocket science to work out that checking the DJ as well isnt going to add that much work.

I dont know about anyone else but i would happily part with £100 per month for a license like i have described above which would solve a lot of the current issues DJ's are facing and give our industry a professional approach to regulation and safety which in a lot of cases as we know doesnt exists.

Thats my idea anyway , i know some wont agree with it but please comment either way and let me know what you guys think :)

[Dragonfly]

Ok i see the DJ license has reared its head againon the forum so i wanted to psot this and see what people think.

My idea for a DJ license would be as follows , maybe not everyones cup of tea but here goes.

Make the DJ license a requirement of the premises license in the same way that venues have to use licensed doormen they would be fored to use licensed DJ's. Failure to do so would result in a fine or even loss of license.

As part of the licensing process DJ's would have to provide PLI and PAT certs to comply with the law and be subject to a CRB check to meet the terms of the license.

The license would allow DJ's to play music in ANY format from any device and obtained from any source that they feel comfortable without fear of MCPS breathing down their necks.

In my opinion if this was a possibility i would be prepared to pay what some people would class as a considerably high annual fee to make this a reality. I think this would put a lot of your "joe bloggs down the road will do it for £50" discos out of business and put the control of pricing back in the hands of the DJ's themselves. The benefits to the entertainment industry would be that they could book DJ's safe in the knowledge as long as they have a current license the venue is not leaving itself open to any legal challenge.

A system like this would police itself and could be dealt with by the local licensing department as they already spot check doormen on a regular basis its not rocket science to work out that checking the DJ as well isnt going to add that much work.

I dont know about anyone else but i would happily part with £100 per month for a license like i have described above which would solve a lot of the current issues DJ's are facing and give our industry a professional approach to regulation and safety which in a lot of cases as we know doesnt exists.

Thats my idea anyway , i know some wont agree with it but please comment either way and let me know what you guys think :)

and also alot of legitimate part time discos , I agree that a licence may help push up the fee we can command for an evenings work , but i think many people are kidding themselves big time if they think this will get rid of cowboy operators .

ways round will be found as with everything and there will still be many that flout the law , my personal opinion is any licencing should be ...per dj and at a price that is not an enormous amount of the profit a person makes each month.

at £100 a month with music costs fuel and other overheads i doubt i would be left with alot particularly if you had a bad month and it was your only source of income you'd be stuffed.

someone suggested a per gig kind of structure ... good imo if it can be policed ..... which i doubt.

its an absolute minefield and inevitably as with everything else in our wonderful land some will gain and some will lose out ..... lets just hope its not the whole supermarket thing all over again.

[Have a disco]

£100 per month may be great if your working every weekend in a top nightclub ie; ministry of sound or Pacha, but in reality is too dear, a fee one-fith this amount seems fairer and affordable.

CRB check should not be a necessary requirement unless you are expected to do childrens or school disco's regularly, private functions are nul and void as all ages would attend?

Publicans would still hire £50 cowboy DJ's or employees to do there dirty work, so heavy fines or loss of entertainment licence should be included as punishments. Also what happens in regards to the PRS side of the argument

[DJWayne]

and also alot of legitimate part time discos

Not meaning to sound harsh here but a lot of "part time" disco's do it as a second job to make some easy cash , i do it full time for a living so those individuals wouldnt concern me. Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.

I am out an average of 3 nights per week sometimes more somtimes less and would happily pay £100 a month if i could get the fees i think we deserve as year on year in my area the fees stay the same and havent changed much for a good 8 years.

[Tom]

I would say that the price of the dj licence should go down if you have pli, pat and crb. maby try to make the dj industry more safer and reliable and give it a good name again.

[Penfold42]

Not meaning to sound harsh here but a lot of "part time" disco's do it as a second job to make some easy cash , i do it full time for a living so those individuals wouldnt concern me. Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.

And what about the part timers that want to go full time and are just building up a business to quit full time 9 to 5 bore...........:) (and that's not meant to sound harsh as well)

I personally think a licence is a great idea, be it the DJ or the premises that has to have it, i don't think it makes a difference or at least it shouldn't....:)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.



I think you're going to make so many people happy with ridiculous comments like that.

It has been estimated via polls that around 85-95% of all DJs are part time.

[Penfold42]

It has been estimated via polls that around 85-95% of all DJs are part time.

:eek: ...that much!
Blimey....didn't think it was that high.....:)

[DJWayne]

I think you're going to make so many people happy with ridiculous comments like that.

It has been estimated via polls that around 85-95% of all DJs are part time.

I'd love to know what those figures are based on, i know "everybody wants to be a DJ" but i'd guess a high percentage of people who responded to those polls were wannabe's or bedroom DJ's.

Whether it makes people happy or not doesnt matter an SIA license for a doorman is just over £300 iirc whether you are part time or not. My comments are not ridiculous mate just my opinion after 18 years in this business.

And to reply to your comment penmare42

Yes it is hard to make the jump from part to full time but surely licensing would be a consideration if you were doing that. If you were backed up by a 9 to 5 and still managing a few disco's it shouldnt be beyond your reach. Once you reach the point where you have enough work to pay your costs and a manageable wage then you make the jump not before. :)

[Penfold42]

Yes it is hard to make the jump from part to full time but surely licensing would be a consideration if you were doing that. If you were backed up by a 9 to 5 and still managing a few disco's it shouldnt be beyond your reach. Once you reach the point where you have enough work to pay your costs and a manageable wage then you make the jump not before. :)

Yes...i'll go along with that......:)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

My comments are not ridiculous mate just my opinion after 18 years in this business.



What's being in the business for 18 years got to do with anything? :confused:

[DJWayne]

What's being in the business for 18 years got to do with anything? :confused:

It means i have seen many part time DJ's come and go over the years, I would say 90% of the DJ / KJ's i know are full time.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

It means i have seen many part time DJ's come and go over the years, I would say 90% of the DJ / KJ's i know are full time.

And how many do you know?

[DJWayne]

And how many do you know?

I'd say around 30-40 across south wales.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I'd say around 30-40 across south wales.

And that's a fair reflection of whether DJs are part time or full time?

[Mission]

Make the DJ license a requirement of the premises license in the same way that venues have to use licensed doormen they would be fored to use licensed DJ's. Failure to do so would result in a fine or even loss of license.



If your going to License DJ's in the way you license doormen then also shouldn't that apply to everyone who entertains. Bands, Duo's, Solo Singers with backing tapes, etc.And a License for the Bar staff and a License for the Cook, infact a License for anyone that works in the venue.


Entertainment licenses etc should be in place at Public Venues, so the only "One does it all License" I need is the one that will let me convert CD to MP3 or MP3 to CD or any other digital format and allow me by law to play those tracks out at any venue that holds the correct Licenses or for Private Functions.

[pulsemobiledisco]

Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.

What a :Censored: stupid thing to say. I'm a part time DJ, I have a ful time day job. There are many part time and very professional DJ's on this forum (myslef included) that you are going to upset very much saying something like that.

I DJ because 1. I really enjoy what I do and 2. It is a good extra income. I don't want to DJ full time, I don't want to be out every night which I would have to be to make enough money doing it fulll time.

There is nothing wrong with part time DJ's so long as they are professional, PLI PAT etc etc.

[Danno13]

From attending the South Wales NADJ branch meetings I'd say your estimations of Full-time vs Part time are quite off for the area, and it quite obviously doesn't make anyone any less of a DJ because they only do it part time.

Which brings me nicely to NADJ.. If every reputable DJ in the country were to join.. then it'd effectively become a license, as it would become more widely known and people would be looking there first if they wanted a professional. NADJ already checks on PLI and PAT and you can't become a member without them - so thats half your battle...

The problem is that most DJs don't even see £60 a year for NADJ membership as a good investment, so I think the idea of DJs coughing up £100 a month is a little romantic!

[Dragonfly]

I think the idea of DJs coughing up £100 a month is a little romantic!


ROMANTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I had a lady that cost me 100 quid a month she'd be on her bike let me tell you :D :D :D :D :D

[DJWayne]

and it quite obviously doesn't make anyone any less of a DJ because they only do it part time.



I never said that :)

the point i was responding to was if a license is too expensive for a part time DJ but i don't see how it makes a difference. All i have noticed with part time DJ's is that they don't seem to be around for as long as the full time DJ's as when the pressure is on the first thing to go is the part time job.

Ok lets make an assumption that a part time DJ does 1 booking a week for £100

over a month 4 x £100 = £400

lets do the same maths if venues couldnt book cowboys

4 x £150 = £600
£600 -£100 for the license

£500

so how could part time DJ's not afford it??

If you do more than 1 a week or you charge more than the example above you would be quids in :)

[Dragonfly]

I never said that :)

the point i was responding to was if a license is too expensive for a part time DJ but i don't see how it makes a difference. All i have noticed with part time DJ's is that they don't seem to be around for as long as the full time DJ's as when the pressure is on the first thing to go is the part time job.

Ok lets make an assumption that a part time DJ does 1 booking a week for £100

over a month 4 x £100 = £400

lets do the same maths if venues couldnt book cowboys

4 x £150 = £600
£600 -£100 for the license

£500

so how could part time DJ's not afford it??

If you do more than 1 a week or you charge more than the example above you would be quids in :)

mmmm lots of assumptions there then :D :D

the biggest one being part time djs obviously dont have any other over heads to pay for and the 100 quid a week is profit??

lets do another sum with the 100 quid figure.....

£10 - fuel
£10 - music
pli - pat - £5

so £75 a week x 4 = £300

so 33.3 % of profit is fair for the licence???

[cara]

ok here's where i stand

i quit my job over a year ago to set up my business full time, so far i've spent the best part of 10k setting up, i've been trading 2 months and am doing on average 1 gig per week at an average of £200 per gig

my expenses are...

lock up £50 per month
van insurance £50 per month
p.l.i. & equipment insurance £10 per month
new cd's & downloads £30 per month
diesel £40 per month

so if a superstar dj like paul oakenfold is paying the same for his licence as i'll be paying for mine then it's not right, the same goes for a dj who's charging £600 a gig

there's no way i could afford to pay £100 per month for my licence

as i said before...a licence for what? to rip music i already legaly own, music that i've already paid for, so they want to charge us for ripping from an out of date format to an up to date format?

hmmm i see, that sounds fair

i mentioned before who will be benefiting from this extra income? the artists or the record companies, and no one gave me an answer

i'll bet you my last pound it won't be the artists

[Tom]

my bet would be the record company. greedy people.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

as i said before...a licence for what? to rip music i already legaly own, music that i've already paid for, so they want to charge us for ripping from an out of date format to an up to date format?

hmmm i see, that sounds fair

i mentioned before who will be benefiting from this extra income? the artists or the record companies, and no one gave me an answer

i'll bet you my last pound it won't be the artists

There's your last pound gone then.


Then you need to read up on licensing and understand that there are two bodies involved, the MCPS and the PPL, both of whom claim royalties for different bodies and people.


The MCPS licence will be there because as I keep saying, legally, everytime you change the format of something, you make a copy and therefore that copy is subject to royalties. By the way, you don't 'own' the music. You own the disc it came on. And lastly if you think the CD is out of date, then why don't you download all of your music?

[Danno13]

@DJ Wayne

Those are some strange figures.... £150 isn't a particularly high fee to aspire to for a start... and it'd be very hard to live off that, even with 3-4 gigs a week, once you've removed all the expenses

[DJWayne]

mmmm lots of assumptions there then :D :D

the biggest one being part time djs obviously dont have any other over heads to pay for and the 100 quid a week is profit??

lets do another sum with the 100 quid figure.....

£10 - fuel
£10 - music
pli - pat - £5

so £75 a week x 4 = £300

so 33.3 % of profit is fair for the licence???

Hence why there were 2 examples in my post ;)

if DJ's were licensed then they could charge more rather than being worried about being undercut by non licensed DJ's

[Danno13]

But there are always going to be people who'll book the cheap guys and they'll always be there to statisfy this market.

What we need to concentrate on, is getting the message across that you get what you pay for and convince people of the true value of a quality DJ (far more than your £150 figure!) rather than worrying about the cowboys.

There are many people who will book the £3-400 guy everytime, even though they've got far cheaper quotes as they have a realistic idea of what they should pay and have been convinced of the value, by said 3-400 DJ.

[DJWayne]

But there are always going to be people who'll book the cheap guys and they'll always be there to statisfy this market.

What we need to concentrate on, is getting the message across that you get what you pay for and convince people of the true value of a quality DJ (far more than your £150 figure!) rather than worrying about the cowboys.

I agree with the fact that there will always be cheaper disco's and more expensive ones but if we could create a system where the DJ's who don't have PLI and PAT and the other associated overheads associated with doing the job corectly would not be able to work the only ones competing would be on a more level playing field.

I regularly qoute for work @ £150 and get told its too much as they know someone who will do it for £80 :eek: . At the end of the day to most people money talks they don't understand the equipment insurance etc that most of us have they just see the fact that the other guy is nearly half the price. Pub landlords with an entertainment budget are the worst for this and as a rule i only do pub work now mid week through an agent and even then you only get £100 after commision. It varies area by area and the fees can be pretty different around the country.I know of one hotel in bournemouth who booked their DJ's from south wales for all their xmas functions and gave them accomodation free in with their fee as when offered £200 per function the guys jumped at it. Only after a bit of digging did they find the local DJ's were charging the hotel £400.

If however venues were required by law only to use registered entertainment then we could justify charging more due to the license and associated costs.

[DJ James Lake]

What happended to the good old days when DJs were considered important to the music industry by promoting the music.

Maybe they should pay us. :D

[Danno13]

I regularly qoute for work @ £150 and get told its too much as they know someone who will do it for £80 . At the end of the day to most people money talks they don't understand the equipment insurance etc that most of us have they just see the fact that the other guy is nearly half the price.

I don't agree, certain sectors of the market will see it like that but not all of them. Its about pitching at the right market and getting the quality leads. People booking nice venues aren't very often going to want a DJ who only charges £80, or even one who charges £200...

And how do you suggest this license would work. I mean not many venues even check up on PLI and PAT.. .so why would they check up on this as well?

[PropellerHeadCase]

There's your last pound gone then.

OK, let's put it another way: What proportion of the royalty makes it to the artist... how big would the label "administration" cut be?

Before you answer consider that it is cheaper for Record companies like Rajon to re-record a classic track (including tracking down some of the original artists to play on said recording) and just pay royalties to the original songwriter - than it is to get the rights from the record company to include the original recording in the compilation. This effectively places greater value on the fact of recording than what is recorded - is it the CD or the song on it that goes to number one? Mechanical copyright is a gip.

[colint]

Ok i see the DJ license has reared its head againon the forum so i wanted to psot this and see what people think.

My idea for a DJ license would be as follows , maybe not everyones cup of tea but here goes.

Make the DJ license a requirement of the premises license in the same way that venues have to use licensed doormen they would be fored to use licensed DJ's. Failure to do so would result in a fine or even loss of license.

As part of the licensing process DJ's would have to provide PLI and PAT certs to comply with the law and be subject to a CRB check to meet the terms of the license.

The license would allow DJ's to play music in ANY format from any device and obtained from any source that they feel comfortable without fear of MCPS breathing down their necks.

In my opinion if this was a possibility i would be prepared to pay what some people would class as a considerably high annual fee to make this a reality. I think this would put a lot of your "joe bloggs down the road will do it for £50" discos out of business and put the control of pricing back in the hands of the DJ's themselves. The benefits to the entertainment industry would be that they could book DJ's safe in the knowledge as long as they have a current license the venue is not leaving itself open to any legal challenge.

A system like this would police itself and could be dealt with by the local licensing department as they already spot check doormen on a regular basis its not rocket science to work out that checking the DJ as well isnt going to add that much work.

I dont know about anyone else but i would happily part with £100 per month for a license like i have described above which would solve a lot of the current issues DJ's are facing and give our industry a professional approach to regulation and safety which in a lot of cases as we know doesnt exists.

Thats my idea anyway , i know some wont agree with it but please comment either way and let me know what you guys think :)


I don't think this would work to well! the main reason being as soon as the local council get their hands on something like this they would raise the cost so much it would be almost un-workable.

when I had the licence for my pub, under the old rules (before the premises licence) the licence fee from the local magistrate was £30 per three years, as soon as the council took over it jumped to around £3000.00, then on top of that you have the personal licence fee too!
I think this whole thing would be unlikly to make a publican want to employ a Dj (or band because they'd have to be included also)

And also think of it like this? if you went to your bank with a business plan along the lines of:
£5000-10,000 grands worth of equipment, transport, fuel, road tax, van insurance/serviceing, pat, pli, equipment insurance, music costs, licence fees
and all the rest of the stuff to run the average mobile would they think it would be a good prospect for then to invest in?

and also what requirements would you expect your licenced Dj to have i.e some sort of course (like the doormen have to do?)

[spin mobile disco]

You talk about venue's having to provide licencing. But what about private parties or open air parties in a public place. Surely that would become problamatic.
I think the best way would be something like they sell DJ only cd's with already prepaid royalties included in the price. This means as a DJ you could play it as many times as you want until you retire. Just for example £3 a track rather than the 70p any regular song costs. The full fee goes to the artist the artist is happy and cuts out the middle man.
Maybe even a one off fee to allow for all previous songs you already own. say £500 to allow free use of these songs in any format we choose until we retire.
I realise there are a lot of problems but i think it is worth considering. All registered DJ's could have a document to confirm legal ownage rights to their music and maybe a new agency could be created to police it . Random spot checks on all music by registered DJ's collection of revenue. Legal action against DJ's not following rules that kind of thing.
And as we pay per track it is more fair to the artist than by guessing what we play and when.

[Tom]

I think the best way would be something like they sell DJ only cd's with already prepaid royalties included in the price. This means as a DJ you could play it as many times as you want until you retire. Just for example £3 a track rather than the 70p any regular song costs.


Said somthing like this on another recent thread. Iv been thinking about this for ages and was thinking about sending an email to relevent people but would they listen to this???

It costs us more to buy the cd's but once we have got them we wont have to pay any more money, fingers crossed.

[spin mobile disco]

Would also cut out the ipod wedding brigade as they would not be licenced to use that music.

[TONYTIGER]

Im sorry but this subject of dj s having a license is pie in the sky it will never happen ,part time djs are the backbone of the mobile industry and i would guess that a fair percentage of work comes from the private sector that is partys and weddings so you would have to pass the cost on to the client ,these people are not regular bookers of entertainment and are looking for the best deal, many years ago our discos were vat registered the work nearly dried up so we deregistered that side of the company the public dont want hidden charges. I have been a full time dj for longer than most people on the forum but i could not make a living out of dj work solely ,the reason being i am in a very rural location its alright these people living in citys or heavy populated areas boasting how many nights they work and the money they charge but there are many good part time djs working 3 or 4 nights a month for the fun and a bit of extra cash any sort of license thats going to cost a lot of money will kill them off and that would be criminal. As for club djs that is another story and this forum is not the place for that disscusion.

[colint]

Tony Tiger!
Well said! I totally agree, and what is exactly what I was trying to say, most of us would be lucky to work three days a week (and I live in london) unless your doing a residency and that just aint gonna pay the bills is it?

[sleah]

As part of the licensing process DJ's would have to provide PLI and PAT certs to comply with the law and be subject to a CRB check to meet the terms of the license.


Well that's just closed down every night club in the land.......
I do both mobile & club, but mainly club now.
As a club jock I need neither PLI or PAT and don't need CRB as they are over 18 establishments.


Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.

Well :Censored: you too!!!!
I've been a part timer for close on 20yrs now, and worked with and stood in for a couple of serious full time pro's who considered me to be very professional and a vital part of their team.
I bet it's rare to find full-time doormen! Most of the guys I know (bout 10 locally) all have "proper" jobs, and are all fully licensed SIA badge holders.


I think you're going to make so many people happy with ridiculous comments like that.
Thank you Sir!:D



Ok lets make an assumption that a part time DJ does 1 booking a week for £100

over a month 4 x £100 = £400

lets do the same maths if venues couldnt book cowboys

4 x £150 = £600
£600 -£100 for the license

£500

so how could part time DJ's not afford it??



At the night club I average 2-3 nights a month @£100, your 'maths' above impies that I am now also a cowboy because I'm only getting £100 a night:eek:

I'm sorry but some comments on this thread sound somewhat egotistical, and it's this sort of thing would make me leave the forum.:(

BTW I'm all in favour of some kind of licensing, as long as it's fair to all.

[DJWayne]

Well that's just closed down every night club in the land.......
I do both mobile & club, but mainly club now.
As a club jock I need neither PLI or PAT and don't need CRB as they are over 18 establishments..

If the venue that you work in has suitable arrangements for PAT and PLI then i dont see a problem, as for CRB thats part of the SIA badge and i don't think it would hurt for DJ's to have it either irrespective of the age of their customers



At the night club I average 2-3 nights a month @£100, your 'maths' above impies that I am now also a cowboy because I'm only getting £100 a night:eek:


No i was trying to illustrate the point that if you take out the people who wont comply with the rules such as PLI and PAT then you could charge more per booking nothing to do with what you choose to charge and the standard of your work.



I'm sorry but some comments on this thread sound somewhat egotistical, and it's this sort of thing would make me leave the forum.:(


Don't be so sensitive its a discussion we arent all going to agree , if we did i'd be worried :)



BTW I'm all in favour of some kind of licensing, as long as it's fair to all.

Which is why i chuckd this post up to get people to say what they think is fair and what they want.

If i offended anyone with the part time comment i apologise it just came out all wrong.

But i do think a legally enforced license is the way forward in some shape or other as voluntary licenses will just disadvantage the people honest enough to do things by the book.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Im sorry but this subject of dj s having a license is pie in the sky it will never happen


I believe it will happen and sooner than you think. ;)

[theoloyla]

When we started SEDA back in the 70's this was part of the idea. I think it is unlikely that we will ever see compulsorary licensing for dj's. The government brought in licencing for security guards because too many people were getting hurt by hoodlums acting as security. There is very little compulsion to regulate dj's. If people were getting killed and seriously injured and buildings burned down on a weekly basis by mobile discos then there would be pressure on government to do something. It takes a scandal or emergency which excites the media to get the government to legislate. The best way to proceed is to encourage organizations like SEDA which insist on minimum standards for their members and to educate the public. When you book a holiday you look for travel agents who are members of ABTA. It is not a legal requirement just good sense and is still only successful because of the scandal of people losing their holidays when several big companies went bust. What is required is education of the public to book reputable discos who are reliable, safe, legal and have guarantees and back up.
The issue of payment of royalties to people who's products or software/music etc we use is a side issue and of no interest to the public and should not be used to cloud the issue. Again the government is not gpong to get involved because frankly there are no votes in it.

[flatliners]

Not meaning to sound harsh here but a lot of "part time" disco's do it as a second job to make some easy cash , i do it full time for a living so those individuals wouldnt concern me. Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.

I am out an average of 3 nights per week sometimes more somtimes less and would happily pay £100 a month if i could get the fees i think we deserve as year on year in my area the fees stay the same and havent changed much for a good 8 years.

i disagree not every part time dj does it to make some easy cash i have a full time job and do discos because i love entertaining people love sound and lighting systems ( sometimes i stand back after setting up and say this is my disco and i am really proud of it ) and the cash is good but if you become money hungry whats the point in djing

[spin mobile disco]

Nice way of putting it flatliners, sometimes do the same myself. I dont think anyone wants to put part timers out of business. I think it was really about trying to draw a line between the poor / illigal DJ's who take work from both part time and full time DJ's with no regard to the damage they do the industry or profesional DJ's.

I think sometimes people try to define the 'cowboy' DJ in ways they think are bad practices. For example my definition of a bad DJ would be:

No insurance
ill maintained equipment (or not suitable for venue)
illigal music (all downloaded from internet or similar) illigally not paid for I mean

There are many other definitions but im sure that these are pretty unarguable points that we can agree on.

If music and DJ's were licenced it would cut down the damage that could be done. If a bad DJ wasnt licenced for example and he caused problems at a gig or failed to turn up im sure someone would say something like did nt you check he was licenced first.

[ross@rds]

Not meaning to sound harsh here but a lot of "part time" disco's do it as a second job to make some easy cash , i do it full time for a living so those individuals wouldnt concern me. Either make it your full time occupation or quit and leave it to the full timers.


And the ones who do it because they love it but dont want to go full time or that , what they quit as well ? also some full time djs are c??p and some part timers are great so your saying if you part time and great dont dj and if your full time but c//p stay ?

On the subject of licensing there should be one with everything on it PAT PLI CRB etc and you pay a one off price at the end of each year to cover the cost of the license.

[DJWayne]

I think it was really about trying to draw a line between the poor / illigal DJ's who take work from both part time and full time DJ's with no regard to the damage they do the industry or profesional DJ's.

I

What i was trying to get across exactly finally someone knows what i meant :)

[ross@rds]

What i was trying to get across exactly finally someone knows what i meant :)

If you dont explain yourself right no one will know what your on about.

[Dragonfly]

negligent ?? those who have no interest in or intention of getting any licence that is on offer ..... that is the sort of person we need to illiminate imo

part timers and full timers happy and able to provide a great service to those who can be bothered to look for a proper licenced legal provider

Would just like to say i read your post with great interest Theo very intelligent and considered views as always.

[sleah]

If i offended anyone with the part time comment i apologise it just came out all wrong.

Apology accepted. We all sometimes post then re-read and realise what we've said:o and you know how sensitive some of us can be:rolleyes:
I think in gerneral we all agree with where you are coming from in terms of cleaning up the industry.


i disagree not every part time dj does it to make some easy cash i have a full time job and do discos because i love entertaining people love sound and lighting systems ( sometimes i stand back after setting up and say this is my disco and i am really proud of it ) and the cash is good but if you become money hungry whats the point in djing
:clap: :agree: I really can't see how anybody can just decide to be a DJ for a job without some skill and aptitude. It's definately more a vocation than just a job, be it part or full time.
It seems some people think it's just about putting one song on after another (iPodder's being the classic example (iPod Weddings I mean)), it's pure luck if they happen to get it right!

As has been said, maybe licensing can't happen in the same way as door licensing, but I can see the best way in that case being professional trade associations.
Actors have Equity don't they??!!!! An actor will never get proper highly paid work without being a member of Equity or one of the equivalents, and that's not a license as such.
Is that the way forward?

[Danno13]

Is that the way forward?

Yes! Have i mentioned NADJ before....? :D:D:D

[Have a disco]

NADJ may be a route but there are many associations on line DJ's United, or even here THE MDA just for starters fact is both companies that employ DJ's and solo business owners or DJ's need a seperate fee

1. I really feel a £240 for a solo business owner or Club DJ is more than enough

2. A business that has a system of tunes should pay at least £1000 for any of there staff to do the job they require????? or each of there DJ's being forced to comply with the basic fee above????

3. Any professional business ie Radio DJ's!!! doing the top spots should pay a proportion of there income as they do more work than most of us put together in a year????

4. Promo's should be allowed as part of the deal for all DJ's as we do ADVERTISE there product on there behalf??????? 9/10 without being paid???

[TONYTIGER]

I believe it will happen and sooner than you think. ;)

I do not think so ,who is going to police it the public do not care a hoot and will carry on booking the mobile of there choice what you going to do arrest them:eek: Theres to much PC in this world already , next thing you will need a license to be a carpenter ,bricklayer,chimney sweep, or such like not for me i think.

[TONYTIGER]

When we started SEDA back in the 70's this was part of the idea. I think it is unlikely that we will ever see compulsorary licensing for dj's. The government brought in licencing for security guards because too many people were getting hurt by hoodlums acting as security. There is very little compulsion to regulate dj's. If people were getting killed and seriously injured and buildings burned down on a weekly basis by mobile discos then there would be pressure on government to do something. It takes a scandal or emergency which excites the media to get the government to legislate. The best way to proceed is to encourage organizations like SEDA which insist on minimum standards for their members and to educate the public. When you book a holiday you look for travel agents who are members of ABTA. It is not a legal requirement just good sense and is still only successful because of the scandal of people losing their holidays when several big companies went bust. What is required is education of the public to book reputable discos who are reliable, safe, legal and have guarantees and back up.
The issue of payment of royalties to people who's products or software/music etc we use is a side issue and of no interest to the public and should not be used to cloud the issue. Again the government is not gpong to get involved because frankly there are no votes in it.

Very wise words from a man who knows this industry inside out.

[cara]

there's some excellent suggestions in this thread, i think on the whole everyone is prepared to pay it's just a question of how much.

[Corabar Steve]

2. A business that has a system of tunes should pay at least £1000 for any of there staff to do the job they require????? or each of there DJ's being forced to comply with the basic fee above????I don't quite know what you mean by a system of tunes? Most (if not all) multi ops rely on their DJs having their own music.

Is this just wishful thinking on your part to price some of the smaller multi ops out of the market?


I do not think so ,who is going to police it the public do not care a hoot and will carry on booking the mobile of there choice what you going to do arrest them:eek: Theres to much PC in this world already , next thing you will need a license to be a carpenter ,bricklayer,chimney sweep, or such like not for me i think.

What has PC got to do with it?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I do not think so ,who is going to police it

The venues.

[Corabar Steve]

Are you going to spill the beans then, or what?

[sleah]

I don't quite know what you mean by a system of tunes? Most (if not all) multi ops rely on their DJs having their own music.

Luminar / 3D have the KL2 system which is pre-loaded with enough for any normal party type DJ.
That covers Jumpin' Jaks, Chicago Rocks maybe even some Liquids and Oceanas.
I've seen one in Baracuda Bar locally, and I think many Lloyds/Wetherspoons have KL2's, although they are not primarily discotheques.
So there's actually quite a few club type venues that have their own music locally on digital AV playout systems, wether or not they use them............... I know CRC tend to insist DJ's use them for normal weekend nights, having covered a couple of nights at one and spoke to a couple of their DJ's.
These are true 'walk-in' venues that often have their own mics aswell so you can literally walk in and do a party night without bringing anything bar yourself.
These type operators will vet their own DJ's to ensure they don't get numptys. Although I have questioned their standards before now, the quality of some stand-ins has been poor to put it mildly!

[Corabar Entertainment]

I don't quite know what you mean by a system of tunes? Most (if not all) multi ops rely on their DJs having their own music.
Steve - were you awake earlier when you posted this..... or do I just imagine the huge Corabar music library that I see every day? :confused: (For clarification - our DJs do each have their own collections as well, but the library is used to supplement their collections when specific requests are made, or to boost a particular genre, if required)

[TONYTIGER]

I don't quite know what you mean by a system of tunes? Most (if not all) multi ops rely on their DJs having their own music.

Is this just wishful thinking on your part to price some of the smaller multi ops out of the market?



What has PC got to do with it?

A popular terminology used in todays society meaning political correct.ps i forgot you dont live in the modern world.

[TONYTIGER]

The venues.

Oh i see like farmer Giles putting up a marquee on his own land for his sons wedding, or Mrs Smiths front room for a house party get real.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Feeling a bit sarcastic and vitriolic today, are we Tony? :rolleyes:

[TONYTIGER]

Feeling a bit sarcastic and vitriolic today, are we Tony? :rolleyes:

To be honest yes i love the forum but feel strongly about this license nonsense we don,t need any more rules life,s full of them.As a point do a survey and ask how many people have claimed on there PLI in the last 12 months, i seemed to manage with out it for 30 odd years.I have spent my whole working life in the entertainment industry and lately its gone to pot just get out there and make people smile and be happy.:)

[Dragonfly]

To be honest yes i love the forum but feel strongly about this license nonsense we don,t need any more rules life,s full of them.As a point do a survey and ask how many people have claimed on there PLI in the last 12 months, i seemed to manage with out it for 30 odd years.I have spent my whole working life in the entertainment industry and lately its gone to pot just get out there and make people smile and be happy.:)

great sentiments there Tony but ..... i'm willing to guess that 30 odd years ago there wasn't someone stood on every street corner asking you if you have recently had an accident that wasnt your fault?? or every other commercial on tv wasnt about mrs . smith who took her bosses to the cleaners because she badly damaged her knee on the slippy floor???

its the sad state we find ourselves in that people will claim for anything and everything and are urged to do so.

I have now had 2 lots of failed surgery one of which the surgeon admitted to me was the wrong procedure have i sued him ... no ... do i wish i had .... ooohhh yeah.

many people see this industry as a way to make quick money that the tax man etc need not know about ..... will we ever change this ..... to be honest i doubt it society is very set in its ways about alot of issues.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Why is it that some people who have worked in this industry seem to think that nothing should change just because it has been alright for them for 30 years or whatever?

I have worked in the industry for a long time too, but am open minded about change and progress.

I get sick and tired of the 'I've worked in it for 85 years and it's always been fine for me' type attitude.

Open your mind.

[TONYTIGER]

Why is it that some people who have worked in this industry seem to think that nothing should change just because it has been alright for them for 30 years or whatever?

I have worked in the industry for a long time too, but am open minded about change and progress.

I get sick and tired of the 'I've worked in it for 85 years and it's always been fine for me' type attitude.

Open your mind.

The same old subject ,if you went for a job interview experience counts for a lot the only people who moan about it are the ones who don,t have any, listen to people like Theo the license issue has been around since time began and long before your day it is a bad idea in my opinion and wont change any thing one thing you cant buy is experience and thats in all walks of life.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

The same old subject ,if you went for a job interview experience counts for a lot the only people who moan about it are the ones who don,t have any, listen to people like Theo the license issue has been around since time began and long before your day it is a bad idea in my opinion and wont change any thing one thing you cant buy is experience and thats in all walks of life.

I understand and respect experience. What I don't respect is people who aren't progressive and open minded. I know this was about 'long before my day' (a phrase which I find particularly patronising, considering I have also been in the industry for almost 25 years). If associations like SEDA and NADJ had tried to progress back then like they are now, instead of sitting round looking at each others gear, then we would be a lot further ahead than we are now.

I think licencing DJs is a very good idea. We need a standard which we don't have at the moment, which is the reason that we aren't taken seriously by so many people.

[sleah]

Darren makes an excellent point.
Think about this. The licensing debate was recently started because of the DDJ licences farce....I meant debacle...I mean c**k up...... I mean.... you know what I mean!!!
"Back in the day" "when I was a lad" "when all this was open fields" we had vinyl records. Piracy and copying was virtual non-existant because it was near impossible for all but the very rich.
So to be a DJ you had to actually own all your own original recordings which was quite expensive by the time you built up a decent library. So a need for a license was totally irrelevent, it was only a license to play in public that was required, which hasn't changed.
Also back then suitable DJ gear was horribly expensive, very very few could actually afford new equipment and many of us resorted to building our own.
So to be a DJ you really had to want to do it and had to be able to put time and money in to it, it wasn't something you could play at.
The only way to gain experience without the outlay was to get to know an established DJ and work with them and if you were lucky, borrow their gear and music, which of course meant they couldn't work if you'd borrowed their stuff.

With the advent of CD-R a whole new area opened up where music could be copied easily at much less cost then buying originals. Even then piracy was much less of an issue than it is now.
I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I did copy some music on CD from others, but it amounted to a handful of tracks that were simply not available on any format - we didn't contemplate copying to save money - if it was available, we bought it!

Now of course, a "DJ" with no music can begin in the time it takes to clone a hard disk from a mate/ebay etc.
Adequate gear can be bought for next to nothing.
So the whole scene has changed and there is nothing to stop pirates with a couple of hundred quid springing up all over the place, and getting a return on their "investment" within weeks.

We do need to move forward and change the way the industry works to stamp out these idiots who abuse the industry and give us all a bad name.

[TONYTIGER]

I understand and respect experience. What I don't respect is people who aren't progressive and open minded. I know this was about 'long before my day' (a phrase which I find particularly patronising, considering I have also been in the industry for almost 25 years). If associations like SEDA and NADJ had tried to progress back then like they are now, instead of sitting round looking at each others gear, then we would be a lot further ahead than we are now.

I think licencing DJs is a very good idea. We need a standard which we don't have at the moment, which is the reason that we aren't taken seriously by so many people.

I understand all you are saying but just because a dj has a license will not mean that he is trustworthy or not a cowboy as sometimes called there are millions of people who have a driving license but are they all responsible drivers i think not , i just cant see it working and improving our industrys image ,most djs gain work my there reputation and hard work and the bad apples soon get found out,

[colint]

There are going to be "bad apples" in all walks of life, but just how (apart from pat and pli) are you going to licence a Dj?
would it be some sort of Apprenticeship like a plumber of chippy would serve?
I totaly agree there should be something, as it is (as already posted) anyone can go to maplins buy a load of cheap stuff and be a Dj (which how the way is exactly how I and many of my friends started, but not from maplins)

I was totally dropped in at the deep end because the Dj I used to roadie for got totally p'd and couldn't perform, so mugging's here was stuck with doing a wedding! Taking into account I'd never been "on the decks" before let's say it was interesting!

That was December 1970 I'm still here just (but only part time now because I'm 51 years young) but what a ride!

Now thats an Apprenticeship and not something money can buy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PropellerHeadCase]

OK, one significant problem here is that there seems to be two different discussions about two different applications of the word licence...

Are we talking licence as in 'paying a licensing fee' to play the music so that royalties go to labels/artists.

Or are we talking 'licensing the DJ' like Secutiy Guards, where there'll be policing of standards of equipment and business practice, etc.?

The two seem to have gotten confused in the course of this discussion.

[Jiggles]

I think that all the ideas are too sensible. No doubt they will go for something off the wall Sort of speak.

[colint]

Think you'll find it's the latter!

[Corabar Steve]

A popular terminology used in todays society meaning political correct.ps i forgot you dont live in the modern world.Politically correct. Calling someone you used to call coloured, black, or person of colour, or African American or whatever it is now. Calling the person you used to call poofter, gay or homosexual. Calling a short person, vertically challenged. I've lost count of what you're supposed to call disabled people now (apart from the fact that all the disabled people I know through my involvement with N.A.B.D. all without exception still call themselves disabled). It's about using inoffensive terms (although inoffensive in who's eyes is anyone's guess) & as the point I was trying to make has bugger all to do with the licence issues for DJs. As for me not living in the modern world, I would say from reading some of your posts, that the world I live in is a d@mn sight more modern than the one you live in!


Steve - were you awake earlier when you posted this..... or do I just imagine the huge Corabar music library that I see every day? :confused: (For clarification - our DJs do each have their own collections as well, but the library is used to supplement their collections when specific requests are made, or to boost a particular genre, if required)

You know d@mn well what I mean we are an exception in that we do lend CDs to our DJs on occasion (& BTW I was talking about mobile DJs / discos not DJs who work for large faceless zeroxed clone venues that all look & sound the same form one end of the country to the other). I wonder if Darren has a central library that he supplies his DJs from (or for that matter do other multi ops do it)?

[Dragonfly]

The same old subject ,if you went for a job interview experience counts for a lot the only people who moan about it are the ones who don,t have any,

indeed but sadly the tide is changing on this subject too .....

i am a teaching assistant with 6 years of experience with young people 5-18 mainstream and special needs ...... the last few times i have tried to get a job could i????




no!!!!!


why ???????


despite my years and varied experience ...... I sadly do not have a piece of paper that anyone can go and get at college in 2 years that says i can do the job...

In this day and age its all bits of paper rightly or wrongly and if you dont have the correct bits of paper you dont get the work ...

its the way that things have changed in "everything" and no amount of well ... "during the war" from people will change that. we have no option but to conform ....

does a bit of paper make you better at teaching kids ..... nooooo half the people ive met with the qualification i wouldnt leave my plants with when i went on holiday never mind children ....

will a bit of paper make you a better dj , person or worker or get rid of cowboys ..... god no .... but to be honest and legal and to conform to the law of the land we will have to have one.

[Dragonfly]

I've lost count of what you're supposed to call disabled people now?

physically challenged :D :D :D which as a disabled person i find twice as condescending as disabled :D :D

[Corabar Steve]

I've lost count of what you're supposed to call disabled people now (apart from the fact that all the disabled people I know through my involvement with N.A.B.D. all without exception still call themselves disabled).


physically challenged :D :D :D which as a disabled person i find twice as condescending as disabled :D :D

That's the one. Probably why they all call themselves disabled too.

[PropellerHeadCase]

despite my years and varied experience ...... I sadly do not have a piece of paper that anyone can go and get at college in 2 years that says i can do the job...

In this day and age its all bits of paper rightly or wrongly and if you dont have the correct bits of paper you dont get the work ...

its the way that things have changed in "everything" and no amount of well ... "during the war" from people will change that. we have no option but to conform ....

does a bit of paper make you better at teaching kids ..... nooooo half the people ive met with the qualification i wouldnt leave my plants with when i went on holiday never mind children ....

will a bit of paper make you a better dj , person or worker or get rid of cowboys ..... god no .... but to be honest and legal and to conform to the law of the land we will have to have one.

The problem is that the "piece of paper" is supposedly 'quantifiable', which basically means that if the new employee turns out to be an idiot the employer can blame the issuer of said piece of paper because they have fulfilled their obligations. Heaven forbid that HR people should actually do proper reference checks and hire someone with actual ability rather than someone with a bit of paper that says they passed some course that they were forced into by their parents and from which they skived off for half off the course work.

[TONYTIGER]

Politically correct. Calling someone you used to call coloured, black, or person of colour, or African American or whatever it is now. Calling the person you used to call poofter, gay or homosexual. Calling a short person, vertically challenged. I've lost count of what you're supposed to call disabled people now (apart from the fact that all the disabled people I know through my involvement with N.A.B.D. all without exception still call themselves disabled). It's about using inoffensive terms (although inoffensive in who's eyes is anyone's guess) & as the point I was trying to make has bugger all to do with the licence issues for DJs. As for me not living in the modern world, I would say from reading some of your posts, that the world I live in is a d@mn sight more modern than the one you live in!



You know d@mn well what I mean we are an exception in that we do lend CDs to our DJs on occasion (& BTW I was talking about mobile DJs / discos not DJs who work for large faceless zeroxed clone venues that all look & sound the same form one end of the country to the other). I wonder if Darren has a central library that he supplies his DJs from (or for that matter do other multi ops do it)?

PC as a terminology also means pointless rules and regulations. Im sorry you dont like my posts perhaps you should not have taken my advice on the two choices of mixers i suggested also looking at the posts re license for djs it seems im not the only one who thinks it will be a pointless bit of paper ,have a nice christmas.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Tony - why are you getting so defensive and aggressive? You (and everybody else) are entitled to your opinions, but it is possible to state those without becoming personal.... even if someone else disagrees with your views!

[TONYTIGER]

Tony - why are you getting so defensive and aggressive? You (and everybody else) are entitled to your opinions, but it is possible to state those without becoming personal.... even if someone else disagrees with your views!

PERSONAL! read Steves posts i rest my case.

[PropellerHeadCase]

Is post silly-season fugue effecting everyone already?

C'mon, folks, loaded trifles at twenty paces :D

[Corabar Steve]

PERSONAL! read Steves posts i rest my case.Personal? Am I not allowed right of reply to your digs then? Chill out! If you, or anyone else doesn't like my opinions, just remember that's all they are opinions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness


PC as a terminology also means pointless rules and regulations. Im sorry you dont like my posts perhaps you should not have taken my advice on the two choices of mixers i suggested also looking at the posts re license for djs it seems im not the only one who thinks it will be a pointless bit of paper ,have a nice christmas.
I didn't. The thread just pretty much confirmed what we were going to do anyway. I had plumped for the Denon (having used Ian's one in January) as my main choice & we already have one of the Numarks & needed something similar to that for another rig. These choices were actually finalised when we found very good deals on both. I'm sorry if this hurts your pride that I don't hold your advice in quite the esteem that you thought I did, but it is the truth.

Is post silly-season fugue effecting everyone already?

C'mon, folks, loaded trifles at twenty paces :DShutyerface :sj:http://planetsmilies.net/not-tagged-smiley-16031.gif (http://planetsmilies.net):sj:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JzSJY5AbEZo