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The inexperienced selling themselves as more...
I won't mention any names, as in reality I could be discussing several different people, and I don't want to single out anyone. So, this thread is made in general terms, but it's something that I've thought about for quite some time....
I'm talking about young and (in real terms) inexperienced DJs. The type that get a few ideas off forums, use the forum as the place to get all the answers, buy a booth/wizzard/whatever the latest fad is, and think that they can move up to the stage of charging a high premium for their service, When in reality they don't have the musical knowledge, skill and years of experience to back up their fee.
I truly believe that situations like this do more harm to our industry than the low cost operators we so often moan about. They sell themselves as "professionals", and to the general enquirer that's what they think they are getting, where in reality they are getting an individual that doesn't have the skill-set that years of experience brings, yet sells themselves as more than they are.
We've all seen it, young operators making out that they are bigger "companies" than they are. They are selling what is no more than an illusion to the client. Does this devalue the professional service that the true experienced DJs offer?
This isn't an 'ageist' thread. I'm not knocking all young DJs. My bug-bear is the ones that sell themselves as more than they are, and in the process not offering full transparency to the clients. Forums are great resources of information, mainly due to the wealth of knowledge that all the experienced members bring to the table and offer freely to the rest of the members. To me (and to many others) it just seems like there are DJs that take on the information and try to run before they can walk.
Is it peer pressure?
Do the inexperienced see all the information on offer and what the long term professionals offer and think "Hmmm, I can do that and charge that too", without having the real experience that time and events over a long period brings?
Are these type of DJs devaluing the service of long term established members?
I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this. And to anyone that thinks this thread is aimed at them please try not to get too defencive or feel this is an attack. I've mentioned no names and I want to discuss this in general terms and not on a personal level.
Discuss.....
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I've had this very situation come up very recently with an ex member of this forum, local to me, stealing my standard email wording and using it himself to reply to clients and passing himself off as more experienced and giving the same service. He also used it on his website.
So, he comes across as providing the same service with literally no experience and half the price. It worries me greatly that people could be taken in by this.
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I 've seen loads who make out they are big. WE this, WE that, and you know full well it's one bloke and his disco. Even those who have been doing it for donkeys years do it. It's always been the same. The internet has made it all more visible and enabled everyone to do this that's all.
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You can promise anything you want on a web site as you can just float around the internet copying other peoples ideas, its easier than it used to be. you don't even need to be on a forum.
Its all fur coat as the old folks used to say. Its the world of marketing we live in. How many times are you sold the dream and delivered something ish.
Those who may only have been playing the game for a few years, but can get decent google rankings are better placed than anyone. Its stopped being about what you can deliver its about how high up google you can get as its all down to what you can promise.
It is frustrating and someone turning up and doing a poor job at good money devalues more than £60 sid. What it says to people is there is no difference and I may as well have paid £100 rather than £300. This is also tied into venues charging £300 and then skimming, passing to an agent who skims and you get £150 DJ for £300. Devalues the whole thing.
If you get £60 service for £60 then all is equal. If you get £150 service for £300 all is not equal.
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To be fair, Shaun, if a young, inexperienced DJ comes on here and says he's just starting off and plans to charge £100, he gets told he's not charging enough. So are we, as a forum, not partly (at least) responsible for these DJs who try to make out they're something they're not? They get the ideas of what they should be doing, and charging, from here so that's got to be part of the problem.
I think I started of the right way. I've always had an interest in music since I was a young child. I was playing the keyboard at 7, guitar at 10 and making digital music at 12. My dad was a big 60s and 70s fan and I grew up on music of that era. I then developed my own musical tastes and that was added in to the mix. So, I got a good music knowledge before I went to "big" school. When I started DJing, I started off working for a multi-op who showed me the ropes and gave me gigs here and there which, over time, built up to me being one of his most successful (and reliable) DJs. When my dad finally saw me working, he saw potential and decided to invest in me financially and Lightning Disco & Karaoke (as it was at the time) was born. From there, I've done more and more gigs and practised techniques to get better at what I do. And I still consider myself on the learning curve and my fees are still low compared to many on here.
But that's my story and things were different 20 years ago. Nowadays, people are more impatient and want things now and the natural progression aspect of being a DJ does seem to have gone out the window a bit. Can we change this? Maybe. Maybe a DJ Apprenticeship scheme would go some way to redressing the balance. But, with an uncertain future for everyone, I can't see this happening anytime soon.
Originally Posted by
NKR
You can promise anything you want on a web site as you can just float around the internet copying other peoples ideas, its easier than it used to be. you don't even need to be on a forum.
Its all fur coat as the old folks used to say. Its the world of marketing we live in. How many times are you sold the dream and delivered something ish.
Those who may only have been playing the game for a few years, but can get decent google rankings are better placed than anyone. Its stopped being about what you can deliver its about how high up google you can get as its all down to what you can promise.
It is frustrating and someone turning up and doing a poor job at good money devalues more than £60 sid. What it says to people is there is no difference and I may as well have paid £100 rather than £300. This is also tied into venues charging £300 and then skimming, passing to an agent who skims and you get £150 DJ for £300. Devalues the whole thing.
If you get £60 service for £60 then all is equal. If you get £150 service for £300 all is not equal.
Very good comments!
Last edited by Excalibur; 23-02-2012 at 04:42 PM.
Reason: Merged posts
Dazzy D
Lightning Disco & Entertainment
Born to make you party!
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This was 'back in the day' (late 90s) but kind of the same thing.
When I started, I had a partner, he had some cash and an interest, so we set up together.
I did the music, and he did the lights, this was the way it worked, as he didn't have the musical knowledge or ability to read the floor.
We had a regular friday at a pub, which goes from being 30 people when we took over to being packed to capacity.
Time goes on and our regular friday night at the pub ends, as the place is being closed for refurbishment.
A few months on and I notice the pub has reopened, and I wonder why I'm not back working there. It seemed that my partner had failed to mention that it was open and was doing it himself.
The thing is he had no skills to read a dancefloor and would just play inapproriate tracks and obscure stuff that he liked.
I went on to get a residency at a different bar, but did visit his nights now and then, and cringed. He was basically trading on my (our) name and was hopeless.
It was easy then for someone without the skills to get work, and even easier now.
Last edited by Retrodisco; 23-02-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by
DazzyD
To be fair, Shaun, if a young, inexperienced DJ comes on here and says he's just starting off and plans to charge £100, he gets told he's not charging enough. So are we, as a forum, not partly (at least) responsible for these DJs who try to make out they're something they're not? They get the ideas of what they should be doing, and charging, from here so that's got to be part of the problem.
I'm not sure I'd wholly agree with that, but I do understand where you're coming from. What I have seen often though is experienced members encourage them to walk before they can run. They're quick to take notice of the higher fee other members command, but the inexperienced are a little more hesitant in taking the "walk don't run" advice.
I personally have never told anyone what they should be charging. I'm a great believer that people should price themselves based on their experience and level of service they offer.
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I totally agree, Dazzy about the way to gain experience and work your way up.
Going out on your own should be a long way down the road. Start off going out with other experienced DJs is a far better route, and then progress SLOWLY. If I had my way, it would be compulsory!
Apart from DJing skills, you need to have some life experience, organisational skills, and business sense, to succeed and provide an all-round good service. As a teenager, it's just not possible for you to have had the life experiences, because you can't have experienced that much!
Also, when we talk about years of experience it can be misleading. Obviously, if you're only doing a gig every 2 months, a year's experience isn't a lot!
Also, what's that saying about learning with experience or experiencing the same thing over and over again?
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Originally Posted by
Shaun
I'm not sure I'd wholly agree with that, but I do understand where you're coming from. What I have seen often though is experienced members encourage them to walk before they can run. They're quick to take notice of the higher fee other members command, but the inexperienced are a little more hesitant in taking the "walk don't run" advice.
I personally have never told anyone what they should be charging. I'm a great believer that people should price themselves based on their experience and level of service they offer.
It's today's culture, like I said, people wanting everything now and not having to put the time and effort in to achieve it. Not just in our industry but right across the board.
I never said you've told people what they should charge. I was merely referring to the forum as a whole and this is the impression I feel we often give to young, naive and impressionable people. I think we tend to build up their expectations with "this is what you could be doing" and "this is what you can be making". I'm a big believer in keeping your feet on the ground and just to enjoy what you're doing. There's a route-map to being a good DJ and that doesn't involve jumping straight in off the deep end!
Dazzy D
Lightning Disco & Entertainment
Born to make you party!
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